258 replies to this topic

[MaxFool]

BLOODREDSINGLE, on 11 December 2015 - 04:18 PM, said:

I am just assuming that every player in this game is 100% equal to each other and in that regard the numbers do not add up. What you and everyone here is saying is that the Clan were out numbered and had to work harder than the IS to not only out damage the IS but also win the event. I call BS.

I'm assuming this won't sink in either, but one more try: No, clans were not outnumbered. Every single match was 12 clanners vs 12 IS pilots.

It has also been seen in this sort of events that for the duration of event IS is flooded by lower tier players, lot of whom don't have unit and drop solo, and who normally don't play much CW. Same happens to clans, but not as badly as for IS. That's where IS gets the more players participating in event. Which means that if clan and IS have equal number of good players and groups, the good ones from clan gets to do more drops while good IS groups have to spend some time waiting in queue.

[KODIAK-AU]

The long and short of this the Clans & IS dropped an equal number of times, the total player count for each side is irellevant.

Each match was 12 v 12, so going back to ealier point IS had structure buffs wich means we had to do more dmg per kill.

/ Thread

[Christof Romulus]

Hal Greaves, on 11 December 2015 - 04:14 PM, said:

Clams did 9.8% more damage than IS mechs and are thus OP. I agree. /sarcasm

Clams did about 10.355% more damage.

(94238853 [Inner Sphere damage] x 1.10355864581671 [Approx 10.355%]) = 103998101

[Kaptain]

Flutterguy, on 11 December 2015 - 04:10 PM, said:

You still aren't understanding that the number of players statistic that you're using is the number of unique identifiers who participated and not the number of players dropped.

This.

[cSand]

Seems totally fine to me considering all the best units were on the Clan side.

In fact, when I first looked at all those numbers my first thought was that the game was pretty damn balanced now.

no way in hell do clam mechs need more nerfs. I say that as an IS player

[Hal Greaves]

Christof Romulus, on 11 December 2015 - 04:49 PM, said:

Clams did about 10.355% more damage.

(94238853 [Inner Sphere damage] x 1.10355864581671 [Approx 10.355%]) = 103998101

V1 - 94238853
V2 - 103998101

( | V₁ - V₂ | / ((V₁ + V₂)/2) ) * 100

= ( | 94238853 - 103998101 | / ((94238853 + 103998101)/2) ) * 100
= ( | -9759248 | / (198236954/2) ) * 100
= ( 9759248 / 99118477 ) * 100
= 0.09846 * 100

= 9.846% difference

Not being a smart ***, sorry, just OCD. I apologize @.@

Edited by Hal Greaves, 11 December 2015 - 05:09 PM.

[Jalthibuster]

So....you ever had any basic statistic lectures at university? That data could almost mean anything. First off, from the 14322 participating players only 12137 reached 300 points. So that's 2185 players who might have played only 1 or 2 games. If it took them more than 2 games to get to 300 points, you've got a confirmation on those players doing very low damage. How many of those have been on clan or IS side, only PGI could tell. One could now assume that IS has more noobs and they got quickly frustrated by getting seal clubbed AND the waiting queue on IS side and more of them quit than on clan side which would lead to LESS long time participating IS players in the end. But, as said in the beginning, the presented data could not confirm this or any other possible scenario as long as we don't get more detailed data.
Personally, i'm playing as a merc and can tell you that i've got no problems doing the damage numbers while playing IS as i do while playing clan.

[Rattazustra]

BLOODREDSINGLE, on 11 December 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

If this isn't hard date proof then I don't know what is....

Sorry, but it seems you don't know what hard data proof is then. It is data, yes. Hard data? I think not. It has no context and no details at all. Real hard data would fill hundreds of pages and it would require training in scientific method to evaluate. Real data evaluation is not something you just pick up on the road and whenever you make a single point guess, you are usually wrong. Only if multiple factors contribute to the same conclusion there is an increased chance of possible truth in it.

BLOODREDSINGLE, on 11 December 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

The IS had more players than the Clan and yet the Clan out damaged the IS by several million... That just doesn't seem right.

Oh, but it does. It is actually clearly evident why that is the case. First of all the actual numbers are irrelevant. The percentages are the only thing that matter and clans did about 10% more damage. The reason is this:

IS Mechs used by Mech Class:

Heavy: 122594
Medium: 71278
Light: 47142
Assault: 43330

Clan Mechs used by Mech Class:

Heavy: 146414
Medium: 62990
Light: 51639
Assault: 16585

IS used more than twice as many assault mechs. Assault mechs are not necessarily the better mechs, though. They can be outmanoeuvred and taken down with good teamwork. Sometimes easily. Nonetheless, they have a LOT of hitpoints. Especially since the balance patch. Lots of hitpoints means they soak up more damage before they die, but it doesn't necessarily aid their survival after a certain point.

On top of that: Clan mechs die when two side torsos are destroyed. There is no need to destroy the centre torso once the sides are gone. Not so with IS mechs, unless XL engine. They still need to be ripped apart, even if they have no weapons left and are merely a stick on legs.

Then there is arm coverage. Many IS mechs have better arm coverage and can thus soak up more damage. This does not necessarily help them with the projection of damage. It just means they take more fire to die. Such things are meaningless when a mech gets into the crossfire of a whole group.

These two elements are already enough to explain a difference of merely 10%.

Then there is also the fact that IS had 10 tons more dropdeck. 10 tons more means more weight on the map, which directly results in more hitpoints. Those matter only when the user of that tonnage knows what he does. If he does not it is just more meat for the grinder. It says nothing directly about said grinder.

BLOODREDSINGLE, on 11 December 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

And before the white knights go on parade here I want to remind you that both sides have new players no just the IS. The stats don't lie. Someone is using OP mechs and weapons.... just saying

Yes, it could be argued that someone is using OP mechs indeed. That is the IS, though. They have the range quirks, they have the heat quirks, they have the cooldown quirks and the hitpoint quirks on top of that. Also they have ten tons more dropdeck.

And no, the stats may not be lying, but they are not that easy to read either.

Edited by Rattazustra, 11 December 2015 - 05:33 PM.

[Zolaz]

So the IS got an extra 120 tons a drop and did less damage to the opposing team and their own team. When the IS brings Assaults and Clan Heavies out damage and out kill the IS ... yep it must be Clan are LEET pilots. 2^[]D34 \-337

[Moomtazz]

I misunderstood the player count when calculating. Balance is good enough!

Using the OPs numbers (which I did not verify), Clan players on average did 31.5% more damage than IS players on average.

Clans: 103998101/6654 = 15629
IS: 94238853/7929 = 11885

(15629/11885)*100 = 131.5%

Adjusted for Friendly Fire - numbers stay about the same. IS 11651 dmg/player Clans 15318 dmg/player, still 31.5% increase

Interesting also that IS did less Friendly Fire per player than Clans.

Friendly Fire:
IS: 234/player
Clans 311/player

Coincidence that Clans did 33% more damage to friendlies than IS did? It almost looks like Clans did over 30% more damage per player than IS, whether it was shooting the enemy or their friends.

Edited by Moomtazz, 11 December 2015 - 06:48 PM.

[Kuritaclan]

The Kodiak, on 11 December 2015 - 03:46 PM, said:

Might be that with all the structure buffs to IS mechs, that the clans had to do more damge per kill???

or

The Kodiak, on 11 December 2015 - 04:47 PM, said:

Each match was 12 v 12, so going back to ealier point IS had structure buffs wich means we had to do more dmg per kill.

those numbers do not stand in full correlation.

Christof Romulus, on 11 December 2015 - 04:49 PM, said:

Hal Greaves, on 11 December 2015 - 04:14 PM, said:

Clams did 9.8% more damage than IS mechs and are thus OP. I agree. /sarcasm

Clams did about 10.355% more damage.

(94238853 [Inner Sphere damage] x 1.10355864581671 [Approx 10.355%]) = 103998101

Also IS-XL use, IS STD usage and the raised 10t dropdeck limit make up for the increased damage needed to take down IS mechs with clan mechs. Or in other words if your dropdeck is 10t higher out of 240t by average you have 1/25th more armor to blow away to get the kill what is like 4%. The other 5.8% are likly linked to additional internal structure buffs minus faster blow up of IS XL engine mechs + slower blow up of IS STD engine mechs. And this isn't prove since most drops end up not all mechs of the dropdeck been used because in many matches not all 48 mechs of the players were killed for example.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 11 December 2015 - 05:54 PM.

[Flutterguy]

Moomtazz, on 11 December 2015 - 05:40 PM, said:

Using the OPs numbers (which I did not verify), Clan players on average did 31.5% more damage than IS players on average.

Clans: 103998101/6654 = 15629
IS: 94238853/7929 = 11885

(15629/11885)*100 = 131.5%

If you read the thread you'd realize those numbers don't mean what you think they mean.

[Moomtazz]

Flutterguy, on 11 December 2015 - 06:10 PM, said:

If you read the thread you'd realize those numbers don't mean what you think they mean.

Care to explain?

[Flutterguy]

Moomtazz, on 11 December 2015 - 06:16 PM, said:

Care to explain?

Flutterguy, on 11 December 2015 - 04:10 PM, said:

You still aren't understanding that the number of players statistic that you're using is the number of unique identifiers who participated and not the number of players dropped.

Averaging the damage by the above statistic provides no useful information.

[Jon Gotham]

BLOODREDSINGLE, on 11 December 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

If this isn't hard date proof then I don't know what is....


The IS had more players than the Clan and yet the Clan out damaged the IS by several million... That just doesn't seem right. And before the white knights go on parade here I want to remind you that both sides have new players no just the IS. The stats don't lie. Someone is using OP mechs and weapons.... just saying



Total IS Players: 7929 (1275 more players)

Total Clan Players: 6654



Total Damage Done by IS Mechs: 94238853 (9,759,248 less damage)
Total Damage Done by Clan Mechs: 103998101

Now your telling me that IS had almost 1300 more players and did almost 10 million less damage? And don't go into that teamwork using comms crap because even if the Clan players were better (highly doubtful) the damage difference is still WAY off.

Parade away white knights.

Clan mechs are more inefficient than Is mechs. They spread damage more per kill. Is mechs have many structure buff quirks requiring more damage input per kill.
Plus if you take the post #19 into account as well...I'd say your claims of OP are utter tosh?

[Moomtazz]

How does the one player have more than one unique identifier?

[Flutterguy]

Moomtazz, on 11 December 2015 - 06:23 PM, said:

How does the one player have more than one unique identifier?

They don't, but some players only played in one match while other players played many. In this count both the player who played once is counted the same as someone who played 30 matches. The actual statistic you're looking for is much easier because we know that since each match was 12 vs. 12 the number of players on each side was equal for counting average damage done.

[EgoSlayer]

BLOODREDSINGLE, on 11 December 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

If this isn't hard date proof then I don't know what is....


The IS had more players than the Clan and yet the Clan out damaged the IS by several million... That just doesn't seem right. And before the white knights go on parade here I want to remind you that both sides have new players no just the IS. The stats don't lie. Someone is using OP mechs and weapons.... just saying



Total IS Players: 7929 (1275 more players)

Total Clan Players: 6654



Total Damage Done by IS Mechs: 94238853 (9,759,248 less damage)
Total Damage Done by Clan Mechs: 103998101

Now your telling me that IS had almost 1300 more players and did almost 10 million less damage? And don't go into that teamwork using comms crap because even if the Clan players were better (highly doubtful) the damage difference is still WAY off.

Parade away white knights.

You quite obviously don't understand the numbers you are pointing to as proof.
Every match has exactly 12 Clan players and exactly 12 IS players.

It doesn't matter if the IS had 10,000 or 100,000 more players queuing, only 12 of them are getting into a match. With 63 slots that means 756 IS mechs in matches and 756 Clan mechs in matches. Extra players just means a larger queue, not more matches. You can't have more IS players in a CW match than you have clan (barring discos). The higher total number of IS players means that there was higher turn over in the IS players, each player was in less matches on average.

182921 matches were played, it's a fixed number of IS and Clan slots available for a player to fill, but the ratio was *always* 1 to 1.

And as others have mentioned, a lot of the IS mechs have structure boosts, as well as a 10 ton drop deck advantage, meaning that the average damage required to eliminate the IS mechs is higher. It's a ~10% delta in total damage done, and while the raw number is large that is only because of the 182921 matches played. Percentage wise it's not much and most of that is explained in just the drop deck and structure buffs advantage the IS had for the event.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 11 December 2015 - 06:40 PM.

[Moomtazz]

Ok the last two posts cleared it up for me. I agree it looks like Clans only did 10% more damage over the event. Looks legit. Thanks.

[fbj]

MaxFool, on 11 December 2015 - 03:51 PM, said:

your premise was that since there was more IS players they should have done more damage and kills. But there was exactly as many IS players in drops as there were clan players. You were wrong, in a very elementary level. You didn't even understand when you were told you were wrong.

lol