258 replies to this topic

[Monkey Lover]

So how many of you clan players would take a

5ss over a timber
Bj-1x over a storm crow
RVN-3l over a ACH


I own every one of these mechs and i would take the clans and i do when we public Q. Sorry but the balance is better but its not balanced.

[BourbonFaucet]

There's nothing that can be done about all the "good players" choosing one particular side, as a ban on organization is a blatant admission that solo queue and group queue don't mix.

Two queues or ghost town, here we come!

choo choo!

[IceFire]

BLOODREDSINGLE, on 11 December 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

The IS had more players than the Clan and yet the Clan out damaged the IS by several million...

Clan mechs are CT targetted a LOT more than IS mechs are because no one really wants to shoot 2 STs to kill a DWF

[Lord0fHats]

The results seem roughly the same as those of Tuk 1, despite the nerfs to gauss and clan lasers and all the IS buffs, save one;

There were more clan players this time. Someone double check me, cause I could be remembering wrong, but I'm pretty sure in Tuk 1 there were fewer Clan players than IS players, while this time the Clans massively outnumbered the IS.

[demoyn]

Monkey Lover, on 11 December 2015 - 09:32 PM, said:

So how many of you clan players would take a

5ss over a timber
Bj-1x over a storm crow
RVN-3l over a ACH


I own every one of these mechs and i would take the clans and i do when we public Q. Sorry but the balance is better but its not balanced.

Um... great comparison. Your heavy and medium examples are only giving up 10 tons each. As for your light mech example, I'd take a RVN-3L over an ACH in CW all day every day. The range matters more there. I'd also take a RVN-4X, RVN-2X, and FS9-S over the ACH.

But it really doesn't matter, because your argument was borked from the very beginning. IS and Clan don't compare mechs in CW one to one. They compare them four to four, and I'd chose IS every single time if the skill levels of all players were the same. Sadly, that's FAR from the truth.

[Sandpit]

BLOODREDSINGLE, on 11 December 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

If this isn't hard date proof then I don't know what is....


The IS had more players than the Clan and yet the Clan out damaged the IS by several million... That just doesn't seem right. And before the white knights go on parade here I want to remind you that both sides have new players no just the IS. The stats don't lie. Someone is using OP mechs and weapons.... just saying



Total IS Players: 7929 (1275 more players)

Total Clan Players: 6654



Total Damage Done by IS Mechs: 94238853 (9,759,248 less damage)
Total Damage Done by Clan Mechs: 103998101

Now your telling me that IS had almost 1300 more players and did almost 10 million less damage? And don't go into that teamwork using comms crap because even if the Clan players were better (highly doubtful) the damage difference is still WAY off.

Parade away white knights.

You REALLY need to take a stats course before you post stuff like this.

Anyone with ANY stats background is going to point out how you cannot and do not make HUGE assumptions about correlation between damage done and weapon balance.

You look VERY silly because of things like
lack of data
pilot skill
new player numbers
builds
mechs
Large units vs. Small units

I could keep going if you like, but you assuming there is any correlation and/or causation to balance in the game is a prime example of "junk science" I've seen in a while.

[Celtic Warrior]

Yawn, Lawl, another IS whine to nurf clans more.

Sleepy

But I'm sure PGI will help you out so just hang tight and quit crying.

Edited by Celtic Warrior, 11 December 2015 - 11:08 PM.

[Zimm Kotare]

I could be utterly wrong, but it seems very clear to me (sure sign that I am wrong, too good to be true & all that):

If we have 996 IS Players & 600 Clan Players, only a maximum of 600 IS Players can get a game at any one time.



So, you might have more players on one side, but more players doesn't necessarily mean more damage, you've got 396 at any one time who can't get a game, can't do any damage.

The remaining 600 on either side do their damage as they would & that all comes down to the games themselves & whether the 600 of one side has a higher proportion of more skilled players, more team work, more luck etc etc.


If there is a glaring flaw in my thinking, apologies!

[LordNothing]

both wolf and falcon have really good units. also a lot of the merc units went clan for the event.

[B0oN]

Sandpit already said everything that needed saying .

ggclose

#caseclosed

[Doomerang]

I couldn't bring myself to read more than the original post.

Without reviewing every game, every decision made every game, and every drop deck brought into those game, there is no appropriate context for interpreting this data in a fashion that produces an answer to the question "Is the Inner Sphere or the Clans more OP".

Tukayyid was fun, there were a lot of great games, but the IS didn't lose because of lack of means. They just had too many players without the equipment, coordination, and desire to make the sacrifice to do what was best for the team rather than for themselves and play Tukayyid to win. The IS organized units waited in a 35 group long queue for 30-45 minutes behind many pick up groups of uncoordinated players. The Clans had a smaller player base, and a higher degree of coordination between those players, and that is likely why the Clans won (barely, at 56%) in my opinion.

[Jon Gotham]

Monkey Lover, on 11 December 2015 - 09:32 PM, said:

So how many of you clan players would take a

5ss over a timber
Bj-1x over a storm crow
RVN-3l over a ACH


I own every one of these mechs and i would take the clans and i do when we public Q. Sorry but the balance is better but its not balanced.

Actually I would take a 5SS over a Timber. Damage output is insane on that 5SS.
I do actually prefer a BJ1X over the crow...my sad crows are now all missile boats since the burn time nerfs. The BJ has way better hard points with better quirks (structure!) AND can be faster too....
And yes, I'd take the Raven. The ACH mega armour never seems to work for me...one hit half my mech gone. With the Raven I get high weapon hardpoints+range+ecm. Perfect sniper support.

For any serious competition I'd take a quirked IS chassis. I run both clan and IS tech and my Is tech has way better KDR and W/R. If you build and play to your quirks' strengths the Is stuff in practice is just hands down better. If you don't agree or can see that, then you don't. But I know what I see from my own experience.
All the clans have is raw damage per trigger pull...wether that is efficient, accurate damage is another matter and how many trigger pulls can you do compared to your enemy?
As you can't bounce/defelct damage in mwo success is all down to:

Getting your damage onto the exact spot you desire with as little wastage as possible, as often as possible compared to the enemy.

Currently, the IS is better at this.

Edited by kamiko kross, 12 December 2015 - 04:40 AM.

[Valar13]

BLOODREDSINGLE, on 11 December 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

If this isn't hard date proof then I don't know what is....


The IS had more players than the Clan and yet the Clan out damaged the IS by several million... That just doesn't seem right. And before the white knights go on parade here I want to remind you that both sides have new players no just the IS. The stats don't lie. Someone is using OP mechs and weapons.... just saying



Total IS Players: 7929 (1275 more players)

Total Clan Players: 6654



Total Damage Done by IS Mechs: 94238853 (9,759,248 less damage)
Total Damage Done by Clan Mechs: 103998101

Now your telling me that IS had almost 1300 more players and did almost 10 million less damage? And don't go into that teamwork using comms crap because even if the Clan players were better (highly doubtful) the damage difference is still WAY off.

Parade away white knights.

The problem still is not the number of players but the relative skill thereof.

The Clans had nearly every competitive unit in the game for this event, and we still held them to within a 10% lead with nothing more than a slight numerical advantage.

The balance may not be perfect, but it's pretty damn good by comparison.

BLOODREDSINGLE, on 11 December 2015 - 04:00 PM, said:

2+2 is equaling 5 here guys.... By all of your accounts the IS mechs have more armor and are harder to kill.... Yet Clans won.... with the same damage weapons available to the IS. This does not compute. A 12 man IS according to your statements should be able to stomp any clan 12 man regardless of skill due to an unbalanced armor amount. If you are saying that the majority of all IS players are lacking skill and for that reason alone you won then I would totally agree but, the simple fact is they are just as skilled as the lot of you. I find it funny how a game like MWO Is a "skill based" game when there are no compensations for lag like in previous games (some of you know to which I speak of) and instead is a simple point and click based game.

It is for this reason that I can not wait for Solaris.

I question your skills both in-game and at reading comprehension.

[Valar13]

Celtic Warrior, on 11 December 2015 - 11:08 PM, said:

Yawn, Lawl, another IS whine to nurf clans more.

Sleepy

But I'm sure PGI will help you out so just hang tight and quit crying.

Narrow that brush up a little bit. He's got IS players shooting him down in here too.

It's not an "IS whine", but a "bad player whine".

[Rattazustra]

One thing I said right from the start of Tuk2 was, no matter what we Clanners do we can only lose. If we win the IS players will say we need to get nerfed even more. If we lose they will say we got nerfed just right, plus we'd have lost.

Fact is that right now the game is not balanced, but skewed in favour of IS mechs. We have one single superior mech on Clan side, which is the dreaded Arctic Cheater, but that's pretty much it.

We may have won Tukayyid 2, but we fought a very hard uphill battle for that. And switching sides is no option for us. We are a loyalist unit and even PGI can't nerf that away.

Oh and yes, I WOULD have taken a Hunchback over my Mad Dog any day. Before the 4J was nerfed it was actually superior to the MDD at 50 tons vs. 60. Now the MDD is slightly better again, but that is only just.

Edited by Rattazustra, 12 December 2015 - 04:53 AM.

[Valar13]

Rattazustra, on 12 December 2015 - 04:51 AM, said:

One thing I said right from the start of Tuk2 was, no matter what we Clanners do we can only lose. If we win the IS players will say we need to get nerfed even more. If we lose they will say we got nerfed just right, plus we'd have lost.

Fact is that right now the game is not balanced, but skewed in favour of IS mechs. We have one single superior mech on Clan side, which is the dreaded Arctic Cheater, but that's pretty much it.

We may have won Tukayyid 2, but we fought a very hard uphill battle for that. And switching sides is no option for us. We are a loyalist unit and even PGI can't nerf that away.

Oh and yes, I WOULD have taken a Hunchback over my Mad Dog any day. Before the 4J was nerfed it was actually superior to the MDD at 50 tons vs. 60. Now the MDD is slightly better again, but that is only just.

Look, as much as I'm not on the side calling for further nerfs...I would hardly call a battle that reached 70% your way in the first *hour* an "uphill battle."

The moments when things were going our way were few, far between, and usually lasted less than half an hour out of the multiple-day event.

[Kjudoon]

There are 3 axis for balance. PGI has addressed only one of them.

Player skill equivalency
"Game piece" equivalency
Hardware/connection equivalency

Player skill is simple and what we have. Players with similar records and stats face off. Simple straight forward.
What we don't have is "Game Piece" balancing. that means in this case battle value based on loadout and chassis value. This as I've been learning in other games that have this (but not the player skill balancing) is significantly MORE important.

The least necessary but is a balance point is that players have similar hardware capabilities and connection. This is about the least controllable and balance-able of the three axis.

Till we get "Game Piece" balance of battle value based on loadout, quirks, modules and chassis, we cannot have good balance in this game. This should be a multiplier or divisor of player skill, or vice versa, not strictly additive or subtractive.

So let's not pretend anything here is very balanced.

Edited by Kjudoon, 12 December 2015 - 07:40 AM.

[sycocys]

BLOODREDSINGLE, on 11 December 2015 - 04:18 PM, said:

I am just assuming that every player in this game is 100% equal to each other and in that regard the numbers do not add up. What you and everyone here is saying is that the Clan were out numbered and had to work harder than the IS to not only out damage the IS but also win the event. I call BS.

IS pugs in CW are not equal to well anything. Most of them don't understand the mode and are used to playing peek and get your face shredded of in standard drops (peek a boo works in T4/5). When you don't understand teamwork or are willing to follow orders/strategies your performance is going to be wildly less than your opponents.

[Monkey Lover]

demoyn, on 11 December 2015 - 09:57 PM, said:

Um... great comparison. Your heavy and medium examples are only giving up 10 tons each. As for your light mech example, I'd take a RVN-3L over an ACH in CW all day every day. The range matters more there. I'd also take a RVN-4X, RVN-2X, and FS9-S over the ACH.

But it really doesn't matter, because your argument was borked from the very beginning. IS and Clan don't compare mechs in CW one to one. They compare them four to four, and I'd chose IS every single time if the skill levels of all players were the same. Sadly, that's FAR from the truth.

ummm.. you understand these were the most used mechs in cw on both sides,right?

Edited by Monkey Lover, 12 December 2015 - 07:53 AM.

[Adamski]

kamiko kross, on 12 December 2015 - 04:39 AM, said:

Actually I would take a 5SS over a Timber. Damage output is insane on that 5SS.
I do actually prefer a BJ1X over the crow...my sad crows are now all missile boats since the burn time nerfs. The BJ has way better hard points with better quirks (structure!) AND can be faster too....
And yes, I'd take the Raven. The ACH mega armour never seems to work for me...one hit half my mech gone. With the Raven I get high weapon hardpoints+range+ecm. Perfect sniper support.

For any serious competition I'd take a quirked IS chassis. I run both clan and IS tech and my Is tech has way better KDR and W/R. If you build and play to your quirks' strengths the Is stuff in practice is just hands down better. If you don't agree or can see that, then you don't. But I know what I see from my own experience.
All the clans have is raw damage per trigger pull...wether that is efficient, accurate damage is another matter and how many trigger pulls can you do compared to your enemy?
As you can't bounce/defelct damage in mwo success is all down to:

Getting your damage onto the exact spot you desire with as little wastage as possible, as often as possible compared to the enemy.

Currently, the IS is better at this.

ProTip - Sniper ACH-PRIME
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ce734c7f4bdda6c

Longer range than the Raven-3L, it can jump, and survive a ST loss. Also still has the very high hardpoints. It also costs 5 less tons in the drop deck.

The EBJ with 8x MPL has better alpha and better sustained DPS than the TDR-5SS, same tonnage cost.

I don't play or build SCR, so I will take you at your word that you like the BJ more than them.

Edited by Adamski, 12 December 2015 - 08:31 AM.