258 replies to this topic

[STEF_]

Tesunie, on 17 December 2015 - 07:38 AM, said:

I'll openly admit, I'm not so good in assault mechs. I actually get my best performance from medium mechs, unless I'm bringing some form of LRMs on that assault...

Though I have been enjoying my Atlas S as a brawler as of late. Kinda strange. Haven't been doing too bad, but haven't been doing great either.

My Battlemaster 1G build use to be fun and effective to use. I don't know why but when I tried to bring it into CW for the event, it didn't behave anything like it use to. Of course, meta changes and etc, so it was an older build verse the latest meta. (Which was why I changed my drop deck after that.)

Yes, that build is fun, quite TT-ish too. But MWO is another planet.
If you look at the hardpoints you can see 6 energy harpoints, very juicy because they are very high mounted.
The arms are very low.
So try this hill peeker, it can work in any map in the right spots, also becuase it's very very fresh.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9c90d01fe97794c

42 instant convergence dmg.
So, radar depr/seismic/lpl cooldown(so can have the "same" cooldown of the ML)/ml range (10+10+10=30% more range and they are 20% fresher)
Ideal range 350 meters.

o/

[Azzgaroth]

Blood..... Go play clan then you can come back qq...

[Adamski]

Rushin Roulette, on 17 December 2015 - 06:44 AM, said:

I get what you mean and I am not saying anything against that point because you are correct in a sense. However only balancing Clan vs, Clan and IS vs. IS will still leave a powergap between the technologies.

As for your point with ES and FF not being balanced. The only thing going against that is the nature of the fixed components for clans. For that they only need half as many slots as teh IS do in counterbalance... and I do not know of any IS build which does not need at least ES to save weight. The lower you go on the weight spectrum, the more builds you will have that require ES and FF locking down 28 instead of 14 slots.

Already the mechs are being balanced on individual variant types, hence the jungle of quirks for each different variant. These still need to be fine tuned. As you said, the Stormcorw still needs a few nerfs, but so do quite a few others (Timberwolf, Arctic Cheatah, a few Thunderbolts, Stalker 4N to name a few others) while other mechs are still in need of further Buffs (Clan lights minus ACH, Gargoyle, Spider and Atlas to name a few) to bring them up to speed vs. the options available with the same weight.

The thing it boils down is if you had the option, would you pick any other light (Clan or IS lights) over an Arctic Cheetah for close range harassing if you did not need the XP on any of the mechs?

Perfect balance is just about impossible to achieve, but the aim should be to get as close as possible to the answer for that question with "sure, Ill take a Spider, or a Jenner or a Kitfox or an Urbie.... Makes absolutely no difference".

If you think the Thunderbolts or Stalker still need a nerf after the Dec 1 patch, then you are woefully out of date on their performance. There is almost nothing that they can do now that a EBJ / WHK cant do just as well, if not better.

Current OP IS mechs:
BJ-1X
GHR-5H
BL-6-KNT
BL-7-KNT-L
ZEU-9S

Edited by Adamski, 17 December 2015 - 09:45 AM.

[Kyrs]

Pretty strange statement, Tensunie

I was on the I.S. side for the event with a few friend that also switch to I.S to validate the I.S. had the upper with the quicks.
All the members agreed that I.S. was stronger that clan, just use the right mech and voila!

PPL complain way to much about the artic cheeta. The damm thing extremly slow compared to I.S. It so slow you can make a FS9-A with the same speed with a STD engin. Shure one has jj and ecm but it has more survival vs meta laser.

Cheeta - champion
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...af1d2edf141bc4c

Let duplica the chetta champion then with Firestarter
Firestater: Std enging case study. same slow speed has cheeta
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...212fbb3c7a8d1b9
They both behave basically the same, one has more survival vs missile(cheeta) and the other has more survival vs meta laser

YES std and slow speed is insanity, so let build build it properly; with 50% more pin point damage.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...da84fbf289c83b6

In the META wars the fire-starter win with both STD engin an with the XL engin.

From what I can see, your mech building skill need to be polish a bit more Tesunie. This is wrong on so many level!! :
Tesunie.:
"Battlemaster 1G build use to be fun and effective to use. I don't know why but when I tried to bring it into CW for the event, it didn't behave anything like it use to. Of course, meta changes and etc, so it was an older build verse the latest meta. (Which was why I changed my drop deck after that.)"

Meta Battlemaster1G, and for god sake!!! twist to spread the damage. There a "std 350" for more twist speed. You'll ra.pe. War-hawk like there no tomorrow.

[Khereg]

Adamski, on 15 December 2015 - 08:02 AM, said:

Average Damage Dealt Per Match:
IS: 1030.38
Clan: 1137.08(10.36% advantage)

That's nice, but you haven't established causation. One possible explanation for this difference in damage output which has nothing to do with the "equipment" involved is the relative skill of the players.

Considering that many of the complaints about Tukkayid revolved around the "large number of skilled units" that played on the clan side relative to IS, this would seem to be a chief concern in the analysis. How did you correct for that variable to arrive at your conclusion?

[Adamski]

What?
The STD FS9-A has a smaller alpha and lower sustained than the ACH, as well as a shorter range, which ECM also helps you with for closing in unnoticed between cover.

The XL FS9-A has a 10% DPS advantage over the ACH but a smaller alpha, again is less mobile with less Jump Jets, and will die with the loss of a single side torso to a bad alpha / PPFLD hit. (Assuming you also upgrade the ACH to SPL when you upgrade the FS9-A to SPL)

[Adamski]

Khereg, on 17 December 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

That's nice, but you haven't established causation. One possible explanation for this difference in damage output which has nothing to do with the "equipment" involved is the relative skill of the players.

Considering that many of the complaints about Tukkayid revolved around the "large number of skilled units" that played on the clan side relative to IS, this would seem to be a chief concern in the analysis. How did you correct for that variable to arrive at your conclusion?

Can you please quote the entire post so I know WTF it is that you couldn't understand the first time I posted it?

Going back 4 pages to find the post, as well as the surrounding conversation for context, is annoying. Especially since you had to spend the effort to edit the quote in the first place for no ******* reason.

The full quote, you so inartfully butchered like a cretin:

Quote

Average Damage Taken Before Death:
IS: 368 (7.9% advantage)
Clan: 341

Average Damage Dealt Per Match:
IS: 1030.38
Clan: 1137.08(10.36% advantage)

EDIT: Clan damage taken doesn't take into account damage received from Turrets, and neither faction takes into account damage taken from drop ships. Nor does Clan Damage dealt account for damage dealt to turrets / generators.

The numbers were posted in regards to:

Quote

But I will reiterate, Pilots did better when driving Clan mechs than when those exact same pilots were driving their IS mechs.

Whether that has to do with them dropping solo, and the average teammate PSR went up by moving to the Clans, or if that has to do with differences between tech bases, remains to be shown.

Breaking it down by unit Win%
1-50: Clans advantage by 6.5%
51-200: Clans advantage by 1.5%
201-250: IS advantage by 2%

Edited by Adamski, 17 December 2015 - 10:43 AM.

[VorpalAnvil]

Khereg, on 17 December 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

That's nice, but you haven't established causation. One possible explanation for this difference in damage output which has nothing to do with the "equipment" involved is the relative skill of the players.

Considering that many of the complaints about Tukkayid revolved around the "large number of skilled units" that played on the clan side relative to IS, this would seem to be a chief concern in the analysis. How did you correct for that variable to arrive at your conclusion?

This right here. I have a guy in my unit that consistently does 500 to sometimes 750 or 1000 damage more than the rest of us in CW ( In IS or Clan mechs ). He runs the same mechs as us, using the same ( roughly ) meta builds. Is he cheating? No, he's better than us. But unlike IS bads, we don't whine to PGI to have him nerfed because our fragile little egos can't handle it.

Edited by VorpalAnvil, 17 December 2015 - 11:13 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Kyrs, on 17 December 2015 - 10:06 AM, said:

Pretty strange statement, Tensunie

I was on the I.S. side for the event with a few friend that also switch to I.S to validate the I.S. had the upper with the quicks.
All the members agreed that I.S. was stronger that clan, just use the right mech and voila!

PPL complain way to much about the artic cheeta. The damm thing extremly slow compared to I.S. It so slow you can make a FS9-A with the same speed with a STD engin. Shure one has jj and ecm but it has more survival vs meta laser.

Cheeta - champion
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...af1d2edf141bc4c

Let duplica the chetta champion then with Firestarter
Firestater: Std enging case study. same slow speed has cheeta
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...212fbb3c7a8d1b9
They both behave basically the same, one has more survival vs missile(cheeta) and the other has more survival vs meta laser

YES std and slow speed is insanity, so let build build it properly; with 50% more pin point damage.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...da84fbf289c83b6

In the META wars the fire-starter win with both STD engin an with the XL engin.

From what I can see, your mech building skill need to be polish a bit more Tesunie. This is wrong on so many level!! :
Tesunie.:
"Battlemaster 1G build use to be fun and effective to use. I don't know why but when I tried to bring it into CW for the event, it didn't behave anything like it use to. Of course, meta changes and etc, so it was an older build verse the latest meta. (Which was why I changed my drop deck after that.)"

Meta Battlemaster1G, and for god sake!!! twist to spread the damage. There a "std 350" for more twist speed. You'll ra.pe. War-hawk like there no tomorrow.

i see this and wanna cry. Just accept some people will never build good mechs even if you rub it under their nose. they do not entirely understand what is needed for MWO gameplay and therefore do not build and pilot the mechs to thiese requirements. They just create clanclones and fail.

On the other side, it's good it makes our life easier on the battlefield.

VorpalAnvil, on 17 December 2015 - 11:09 AM, said:

This right here. I have a guy in my unit that consistently does 500 to sometimes 750 or 1000 damage more than the rest of us in CW ( In IS or Clan mechs ). He runs the same mechs as us, using the same ( roughly ) meta builds. Is he cheating? No, he's better than us. But unlike IS bads, we don't whine to PGI to have him nerfed because our fragile little egos can't handle it.

but when your mom educated and raised you with the "you are the best and can do everything" theory this is illogical.

Edited by Lily from animove, 17 December 2015 - 11:19 AM.

[Kyrs]

Adamski, on 17 December 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

What?
The STD FS9-A has a smaller alpha and lower sustained than the ACH, as well as a shorter range, which ECM also helps you with for closing in unnoticed between cover.

The XL FS9-A has a 10% DPS advantage over the ACH but a smaller alpha, again is less mobile with less Jump Jets, and will die with the loss of a single side torso to a bad alpha / PPFLD hit. (Assuming you also upgrade the ACH to SPL when you upgrade the FS9-A to SPL)

The outcome of the ACH will be the same when he lose his side torsor, the 20% reduction of speed. There now way in hell a tier 1 or 2 will lets you live. 1 jj is all you need, jumping higher that a mech expose you the the entire team.

Why do ppl ignore the burn time and quick reducing to heat and duration??? lets ignored speed also, why not.

As for the ECM it tell every your there event if you behind cover it, the radar scambling if a *****. If you flip it you cancel an ecm and still tell them your there. It take only 1 scamble mech for him to call your presence on the VOIP. (lazy ppl just launch uav)

[Adamski]

ECM only has a 90m range, stay outside 90m and the enemy will not receive the radar scramble notification that you are near.

The mech you chose in your example, the FS9-A, has 2 quirks: 10% energy range, 5% energy heat.

Its Small Lasers will still be a shorter range than the ACH ER-Small Laser or the ACH Small Pulse Laser. If you equip the Small Pulse Lasers on it, it will lose even more range.

I took the 5% energy heat quirk into consideration when I told you that the XL FS9-A will have only a 10% advantage in sustained DPS while having a smaller alpha than a similarly equipped ACH.

EDIT: For beam duration:
the IS Small Laser does 3 damage in 0.75s or 4dps
the Clan ER-Small Laser does 5 damage in 1s, or 5dps
the IS Small Pulse Laser does 4 damage in .5s, or 8dps
the Clan Small Pulse Laser does 6 damage in .75s or 8dps

Edited by Adamski, 17 December 2015 - 03:19 PM.

[Zibmo]

VorpalAnvil, on 17 December 2015 - 11:09 AM, said:

This right here. I have a guy in my unit that consistently does 500 to sometimes 750 or 1000 damage more than the rest of us in CW ( In IS or Clan mechs ). He runs the same mechs as us, using the same ( roughly ) meta builds. Is he cheating? No, he's better than us. But unlike IS bads, we don't whine to PGI to have him nerfed because our fragile little egos can't handle it.

Fortunately, that caliber of player only exists on the Clan side. He and I share something in common. Neither of us play anywhere near as well on our IS accounts. I am magically much better in my Clan mechs. Just because I am.

[Tesunie]

Stefka Kerensky, on 17 December 2015 - 08:27 AM, said:

Yes, that build is fun, quite TT-ish too. But MWO is another planet.
If you look at the hardpoints you can see 6 energy harpoints, very juicy because they are very high mounted.
The arms are very low.
So try this hill peeker, it can work in any map in the right spots, also becuase it's very very fresh.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9c90d01fe97794c

42 instant convergence dmg.
So, radar depr/seismic/lpl cooldown(so can have the "same" cooldown of the ML)/ml range (10+10+10=30% more range and they are 20% fresher)
Ideal range 350 meters.

o/

I will remark that my Battlemaster build there was created back when the Battlemaster was still considered new. And it worked back then. Last time I had played it was when quirks for the 1G were first introduced, and it made it a lot more effective. It has since... apparently gone broken.

That Battlemaster works well in PUG, but it is not so worthy of CW, which does have a different play style and mech design ethos attached to it. Some mechs that may work well in PUG don't work at all in CW. My Battlemaster (without me working on it) fall under that category. I also believe that they reduced the med laser quirks, and I also haven't played it in a while so I didn't use it quiet right...

Your build looks nice, but I'd be concerned about not having range. I don't mind having close range weapons, but I normally like at least one or two alternative range weapons. I'll be sending my ancient build to the workshop before too long I think. It needs to be tinkered with. (I'm still not very good with asaults...)

Kyrs, on 17 December 2015 - 10:06 AM, said:

Pretty strange statement, Tensunie

I was on the I.S. side for the event with a few friend that also switch to I.S to validate the I.S. had the upper with the quicks.
All the members agreed that I.S. was stronger that clan, just use the right mech and voila!

PPL complain way to much about the artic cheeta. The damm thing extremly slow compared to I.S. It so slow you can make a FS9-A with the same speed with a STD engin. Shure one has jj and ecm but it has more survival vs meta laser.

Cheeta - champion
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...af1d2edf141bc4c

Let duplica the chetta champion then with Firestarter
Firestater: Std enging case study. same slow speed has cheeta
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...212fbb3c7a8d1b9
They both behave basically the same, one has more survival vs missile(cheeta) and the other has more survival vs meta laser

YES std and slow speed is insanity, so let build build it properly; with 50% more pin point damage.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...da84fbf289c83b6

In the META wars the fire-starter win with both STD engin an with the XL engin.

From what I can see, your mech building skill need to be polish a bit more Tesunie. This is wrong on so many level!! :
Tesunie.:
"Battlemaster 1G build use to be fun and effective to use. I don't know why but when I tried to bring it into CW for the event, it didn't behave anything like it use to. Of course, meta changes and etc, so it was an older build verse the latest meta. (Which was why I changed my drop deck after that.)"

Meta Battlemaster1G, and for god sake!!! twist to spread the damage. There a "std 350" for more twist speed. You'll ra.pe. War-hawk like there no tomorrow.

Oh, if you think slow lights are crazy, then you'd best stay well away from me. Crazy may be contagious after all...

I play all sorts of builds. From the bizarre and should never work (but do somehow) to the more sane and even meta like builds. Don't judge a book by it's cover, and don't judge a player off a single build (which was already admitted to not be meta. Effective does not mean "best"). As for that Battlemaster build, read about it more above. It's old. Older than quirks old.

PS: Careful use of JJs works well at distributing damage around, even against lasers.
And, do recall that the recent changes to Clan tech is to open a path to removing quirks from IS mechs.



I would like to remind, I have not declared if I feel Clans or IS are OP. I just said that, as the topic's subject is, Clans dealing higher damage during the event is inconclusive on if they are OP or not.

[Kyrs]

Tesunie, on 17 December 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

I will remark that my Battlemaster build there was created back when the Battlemaster was still considered new. And it worked back then. Last time I had played it was when quirks for the 1G were first introduced, and it made it a lot more effective. It has since... apparently gone broken.

That Battlemaster works well in PUG, but it is not so worthy of CW, which does have a different play style and mech design ethos attached to it. Some mechs that may work well in PUG don't work at all in CW. My Battlemaster (without me working on it) fall under that category. I also believe that they reduced the med laser quirks, and I also haven't played it in a while so I didn't use it quiet right...

Your build looks nice, but I'd be concerned about not having range. I don't mind having close range weapons, but I normally like at least one or two alternative range weapons. I'll be sending my ancient build to the workshop before too long I think. It needs to be tinkered with. (I'm still not very good with asaults...)



Oh, if you think slow lights are crazy, then you'd best stay well away from me. Crazy may be contagious after all...

I play all sorts of builds. From the bizarre and should never work (but do somehow) to the more sane and even meta like builds. Don't judge a book by it's cover, and don't judge a player off a single build (which was already admitted to not be meta. Effective does not mean "best"). As for that Battlemaster build, read about it more above. It's old. Older than quirks old.

PS: Careful use of JJs works well at distributing damage around, even against lasers.
And, do recall that the recent changes to Clan tech is to open a path to removing quirks from IS mechs.



I would like to remind, I have not declared if I feel Clans or IS are OP. I just said that, as the topic's subject is, Clans dealing higher damage during the event is inconclusive on if they are OP or not.

fair enuf..

but please don't post build like that battlemaster...

When I was I.S. side for CW. Generally my damage was lower then in Clan mech, but it was coring stuff like there no tomorrow. Only storm-crow that was hard to core.

Sad part is you cant do more damage when everything is cored dead.

Edited by Kyrs, 17 December 2015 - 09:16 PM.

[Tesunie]

Kyrs, on 17 December 2015 - 09:14 PM, said:

fair enuf..

but please don't post build like that battlemaster...

When I was I.S. side for CW. Generally my damage was lower then in Clan mech, but it was coring stuff like there no tomorrow. Only storm-crow that was hard to core.

Sad part is you cant do more damage when everything is cored dead.

One of the comments about the damage stats I had. Clan weapons tend to spread more, due to longer durations. IS weapons tend to spread less because of shorter durations.

There are too many different possibilities, as well as combinations of possibilities, to make any clear conclusions from the data presented in this thread (as far as the topic and the OP are concerned).

[Kyrs]

Adamski, on 17 December 2015 - 03:15 PM, said:

ECM only has a 90m range, stay outside 90m and the enemy will not receive the radar scramble notification that you are near.

The mech you chose in your example, the FS9-A, has 2 quirks: 10% energy range, 5% energy heat.

Its Small Lasers will still be a shorter range than the ACH ER-Small Laser or the ACH Small Pulse Laser. If you equip the Small Pulse Lasers on it, it will lose even more range.

I took the 5% energy heat quirk into consideration when I told you that the XL FS9-A will have only a 10% advantage in sustained DPS while having a smaller alpha than a similarly equipped ACH.

EDIT: For beam duration:
the IS Small Laser does 3 damage in 0.75s or 4dps
the Clan ER-Small Laser does 5 damage in 1s, or 5dps
the IS Small Pulse Laser does 4 damage in .5s, or 8dps
the Clan Small Pulse Laser does 6 damage in .75s or 8dps

I that 55 metres between I.S pulse that crucial and OP?? You have 55 more metres but an increase of 50% in burn time. A light mech runs at 40 to 47.5 metres per second. I give that on Executioner it does matter more.

Still with quick FS9-A with 8 Small pulse 32 alpha with 5.25 sustain damage with quick. It extremely close to 36 alpha with 4.8 sustain damage.

That 50% difference is deadly at high 1 tier a 2 battle. Cheata still very good mech but I fear way more the FS9-A a FS9-S.

[VorpalAnvil]

Kyrs, on 17 December 2015 - 09:40 PM, said:

I that 55 metres between I.S pulse that crucial and OP?? You have 55 more metres but an increase of 50% in burn time. A light mech runs at 40 to 47.5 metres per second. I give that on Executioner it does matter more.

Still with quick FS9-A with 8 Small pulse 32 alpha with 5.25 sustain damage with quick. It extremely close to 36 alpha with 4.8 sustain damage.

That 50% difference is deadly at high 1 tier a 2 battle. Cheata still very good mech but I fear way more the FS9-A a FS9-S.

To me the irony is much of the QQing about the ACH comes from IS, but it is far easier to kill with short duration IS lasers than clan-week-long-burn-time-lasers.

[Adamski]

Most of the ACH QQ is residual from when each leg got a bonus 17 structure, which is more than double the base structure, which combined with a cXL engine in the torsos, and great hitboxes, made them the hardest mech to kill, combined with their decent speed and hardpoints giving them good to great strike & fade capabilities.

ACH is in a much better place now that its quirks have been removed.

Edited by Adamski, 17 December 2015 - 10:01 PM.

[Tesunie]

Adamski, on 17 December 2015 - 10:00 PM, said:

Most of the ACH QQ is residual from when each leg got a bonus 17 structure, which is more than double the base structure, which combined with a cXL engine in the torsos, and great hitboxes, made them the hardest mech to kill, combined with their decent speed and hardpoints giving them good to great strike & fade capabilities.

ACH is in a much better place now that its quirks have been removed.

But, they were still very killable before their quirks were removed. (Trust me, I should know. I died many times in my Cheetah... Painful. Horrorable. Messy deaths.)

[Adamski]

Believe me, my Cheetah died plenty too, but PGI should balance mechs based on what good pilots can do with them, not mediocre light pilots who should be piloting their favorite mechs that are heavier.