258 replies to this topic

[demoyn]

Tesunie, on 15 December 2015 - 11:09 PM, said:

But someone's tier should NEVER be a point of ridicule or to try and downtrodden someone's opinion.

The tier itself wasn't the point of ridicule. What made it relevant was the fact that he dropped out of the decent tier range in a game where that's almost impossible to do by a player with even a moderate amount of skill.

[Koshirou]

hybrid black, on 14 December 2015 - 05:52 PM, said:

- ton for ton the IS takes more damage to die with the new quirks

IS Mechs actually took slightly less damage to kill in BoT2 than in BoT1. So the vaunted structure buffs apparently had no real effect or were at the very least cancelled out by advantages on the Clan side. Also, IS damage output declined sharply, while Clan damage output increased even more sharply.
OTOH, Clan Mechs took a lot less damage to kill than in BoT1, which either means that some of the quirk changes since April have had a strong negative impact on Clan Mech survivability (I have not kept track of the changes, so I can't tell) or that IS players were actually better at shooting for effect than they were in BoT1 (which would of course blow the "IS noobs, L2P" explanations out of the water.)

[Adamski]

Stefka Kerensky, on 15 December 2015 - 10:48 PM, said:

Yep, u are right, but since that guy is simply trolling in his posts, I couldn't resist to feed him.

Can someone explain him that it is impossible to stay serious in this topic if he writes this:

"ACH = SDR
SCR = GRF / SHD / WVR / KTO / etc
EBJ = TDR / JM6
TBR = BL-KNT / OR1
WHK = STK / BLR
DWF = AS7 / KGC"


Beside, about Tuk2, in my first posts in this topic I wrote about skills imbalance during the event.
SO yes, meanwhile tiers have nothing to do in clan/IS balance, it had a lot to do in that event.

That post was strictly about tonnage, and you would know that if you had read the entire post and quoted the entire post, instead of editing my post to cut the context from it and troll me.

demoyn, on 16 December 2015 - 02:40 AM, said:

The tier itself wasn't the point of ridicule. What made it relevant was the fact that he dropped out of the decent tier range in a game where that's almost impossible to do by a player with even a moderate amount of skill.

I dropped out of tier range, because I only turned it on after I achieved tier 2, so I was right on the cusp, and last night my teams were full of disorganized players where 7/11 teammates failed to hit 200 damage in a match regularly. Not to mention I was driving my Victor which is difficult to carry a team with.

Edited by Adamski, 16 December 2015 - 04:48 AM.

[Adamski]

Koshirou, on 16 December 2015 - 03:31 AM, said:

IS Mechs actually took slightly less damage to kill in BoT2 than in BoT1. So the vaunted structure buffs apparently had no real effect or were at the very least cancelled out by advantages on the Clan side. Also, IS damage output declined sharply, while Clan damage output increased even more sharply.
OTOH, Clan Mechs took a lot less damage to kill than in BoT1, which either means that some of the quirk changes since April have had a strong negative impact on Clan Mech survivability (I have not kept track of the changes, so I can't tell) or that IS players were actually better at shooting for effect than they were in BoT1 (which would of course blow the "IS noobs, L2P" explanations out of the water.)

If Clan teams spent a lot of time camping IS mechs at the dropships, that would lower the Damage Taken per Mech Destroyed stat, because dropship damage is not recorded in the Tukayyid stats.

[Adamski]

demoyn, on 16 December 2015 - 02:36 AM, said:

I didn't say that it had great laser range or "decent" jumping. What I said was that it had a better range and jump capabilities than the SCR of the same relative range and role. Apparently your reading comprehension is as flawless as your MWO knowledge.



Why is reality so hard for you to understand? It doesn't matter WHAT the WHK has, because very few people use it. It's not a significant enough mech to make up for screwing over the rest of your drop deck.



I use "someone else's tier list" so that we can keep level ground in the debate, as I said before. Mech builds are paper / rock / scissors, so if we don't have meta builds then we're just chasing our tails while we laugh at you.

So because Clan players don't want to drive an equivalent mech, its role in balancing gameplay is irrelevant? That is some of the most ******** logic I have heard in a long while.

The CDA-X5 has a 35% energy range quirk and 4 energy hardpoints. With modules, it gets a 980m optimal with ERLL and 1175m optimal with ERPPC. But since its not on the Metamech tier list, you cant use it in any arguments for IS having the advantage in extreme ranges right?

[Adamski]

Tesunie, on 15 December 2015 - 10:39 PM, said:

Tier has NOTHING to do with this topic. Please, remain civil and on topic.

Someone's tier has no relevance on their opinion, be it what it may be.

If you cant argue the idea, attack the poster.

[Lily from animove]

Koshirou, on 16 December 2015 - 03:31 AM, said:

IS Mechs actually took slightly less damage to kill in BoT2 than in BoT1.

strange result, given that since tuk 1 IS mechs got a lot hp buffs while clanweapons where also nerfed. But the delta of dmg to be destroyed in tuk 1 was a lot closer beteen IS and clan in tuk 1, while in tuk2 it shows clearly that IS mechs were more durable than clanmechs.

Adamski, on 16 December 2015 - 04:56 AM, said:

The CDA-X5 has a 35% energy range quirk and 4 energy hardpoints. With modules, it gets a 980m optimal with ERLL and 1175m optimal with ERPPC. But since its not on the Metamech tier list, you cant use it in any arguments for IS having the advantage in extreme ranges right?

it depends, since we use statistics for the balance or better PGI does, a mech doign better but not being used will not influence the statistics to a specific degree.

Questionable is, when a faction has an advantage and is lacking the ability to properly use this strenght. Does that mean we still need to adjust balance? personally, I don't think so, because when people are the problem not using a strenght it does not mean the system is unbalanced. Objectively, maybe yes. When one side is never able to use the advantage (for whatever reason) it then would probably be needed. But hat is at risk that when people suddenly switch to this strength balance totally flips.

[STEF_]

Lily from animove, on 16 December 2015 - 05:32 AM, said:

Questionable is, when a faction has an advantage and is lacking the ability to properly use this strenght. Does that mean we still need to adjust balance? personally, I don't think so, because when people are the problem not using a strenght it does not mean the system is unbalanced. Objectively, maybe yes. When one side is never able to use the advantage (for whatever reason) it then would probably be needed. But hat is at risk that when people suddenly switch to this strength balance totally flips.

This is very true.
During Tuk2 I saw a really unexpected poor quantity of BJ, for instance.

[Lily from animove]

Adamski, on 15 December 2015 - 07:30 PM, said:

Please, post this GRF-3M build that has great laser range with 4x SRM4 and decent jumping all at the same time.

The STK-3H has 4 energy hardpoints and 15% energy range, which gives it 5% more range than a Clan ERLL.
I bet Clan mechs like the WHK move a whole lot more than 5% faster than a STK. (in fact, the WHK goes 10% faster, can fit 4x cERLL and has a 4% reduced heat quirk compared to the STK-3H 10%, and can fit 30 DHS to the STK-3H max of 24 (25% more DHS)). The WHK also has a larger torso twist even though the STK-3H has a quirk to increase its torso twist.

Maybe you should actually look at mech builds, instead of relying on someone elses tier lists to make your opinion for you.

your biggest issue right up there!

you build clanclones in IS mechs, which will fail, see the strengths in your IS chassis and use them, not build a bad clanclone in an IS mech. Especially after reading this Warhawk vs Stalker comparison. That Stalker pilot must do smething horribly wrong if he gets trashed by a WHK.

Edited by Lily from animove, 16 December 2015 - 06:51 AM.

[Adamski]

I haven't posted any builds that I use? I'm just pointing out that there isn't anything that an IS mech can do with quirks that a Clan mech cant do, with similar tonnage. Within a reasonable definition of 'same'.

[Lily from animove]

Adamski, on 16 December 2015 - 06:50 AM, said:

I haven't posted any builds that I use? I'm just pointing out that there isn't anything that an IS mech can do with quirks that a Clan mech cant do, with similar tonnage. Within a reasonable definition of 'same'.

you point out totally invalid comparisons out of the big picture that proof nothing, show nothing and you don't even pilot them?

Thats like comparing a swallow with a duck in their Rl habitat when you actually are in a topic about how to prepare the perfect thanks giving turkey.

You are somewhat related to birds, yet nothing you say is to any releveance to the topic at all. And you STK will still win, because he has hardpoint and geometry advantages as well as beamduration. You just lay out your opinion with backing it up with nonsense comparisons that only bad pilots would do.

don't "point" out at the bottom where a broken floarboard is when we actually speak about fixing a hole in the roof.

because you now either have no idea what it truly is about or you talk intended nonsense. and given the nonsense conclusion you made in the tk 1 vs 2 stats thread I tend to think you just have not much of an idea about how most things work. Otherwise you wouldn't say these kind of nonsense.

Edited by Lily from animove, 17 December 2015 - 03:55 AM.

[Adamski]

That's a lot of really nice metaphors there, but I really don't care what your mom made you for dinner or what home reno projects you are helping her with.

If you want to claim that the STK hitboxes and hardpoint locations are a counter balance to a WHK increased heat dissipation, then go ahead, and there are arguments to be made for either side.

Edited by Adamski, 16 December 2015 - 07:47 AM.

[Necromantion]

BLOODREDSINGLE, on 11 December 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

If this isn't hard date proof then I don't know what is....


The IS had more players than the Clan and yet the Clan out damaged the IS by several million... That just doesn't seem right. And before the white knights go on parade here I want to remind you that both sides have new players no just the IS. The stats don't lie. Someone is using OP mechs and weapons.... just saying



Total IS Players: 7929 (1275 more players)

Total Clan Players: 6654



Total Damage Done by IS Mechs: 94238853 (9,759,248 less damage)
Total Damage Done by Clan Mechs: 103998101

Now your telling me that IS had almost 1300 more players and did almost 10 million less damage? And don't go into that teamwork using comms crap because even if the Clan players were better (highly doubtful) the damage difference is still WAY off.

Parade away white knights.

Another idiot trying to justify their "clams op" qq with numbers that illustrate nothing other than the fact that you have no ability to interpret what youre looking at.

First of all most newer players play IS. Why? Because the mechs are cheaper and more accessible, thus players on IS have less experience or skill...

Wait I have a better way to sum up this thread.

Why were there more players on IS but they did less damage?

Because most of the IS players are like you.

/THREAD

[Tesunie]

demoyn, on 16 December 2015 - 02:36 AM, said:

Apparently your reading comprehension is as flawless as your MWO knowledge.



...so if we don't have meta builds then we're just chasing our tails while we laugh at you.

I've said it before, right in this thread actually, Please try to remain civil. There is no reason to attack the poster. He's actually presented reasonable debates and points within this thread. I may disagree with him, but that doesn't make him invalid either. While on that note, I could make a Stormcrow fill a similar role as your proposed Griffin 3M that might lack Jump, but could be built with (S)SRMs and ERLLs, giving it vastly better range. Also, doesn't the CERLL have greater range than the ML? Or did they reduce it down that much?



And... I do very well in my non-meta mechs. I play what I enjoy, and I've done well in any game mode. Can't say I'm top player, but I hold my own.

demoyn, on 16 December 2015 - 02:40 AM, said:

The tier itself wasn't the point of ridicule. What made it relevant was the fact that he dropped out of the decent tier range in a game where that's almost impossible to do by a player with even a moderate amount of skill.

He's probably on that cusp (which he admitted) between tiers. I was once T4, and when I was on the edge between T4 and T3, I would rise and fall in tier for a while for every win and loss. And losing streaks do happen, as most times players are PUGing, and they are paired up with 23 other players in a match who influence the win or loss.

Even then, his tier still had nothing to do with the thread, nor his posts. Even the poster who brought it up admitted his error on that, and gained respect from me for doing so.

Adamski, on 16 December 2015 - 04:50 AM, said:

If Clan teams spent a lot of time camping IS mechs at the dropships, that would lower the Damage Taken per Mech Destroyed stat, because dropship damage is not recorded in the Tukayyid stats.

Valid point of consideration. I don't think it happened all that much, but it is something that needs to be considered.

Adamski, on 16 December 2015 - 05:21 AM, said:

If you cant argue the idea, attack the poster.

It's called a strawman argument. You can't/don't wish to argue the point, so instead you set up something else you can argue about to make the other person look bad, thus trying to discriminate their point in an obtuse manner.

However, I give that poster credit for admitting it wasn't good to do, and at least doing that much. Even though what was said can't be unsaid, and he would have lost my respect, he actually gained my respect by admitting his error. Everyone makes mistakes. Owning up to them is what gains respect.

Necromantion, on 16 December 2015 - 07:59 AM, said:

Why were there more players on IS but they did less damage?

Because most of the IS players are like you.

/THREAD

Your post is rude, uncalled for, and is another attack on a fellow player. You are implying that IS did poorly because the OP is not a good player. (IS actually did fairly well overall. Most times, the planet was at 60% capture from what I saw when I was on. So, maybe you are implying that player is a good player, in an overly sly manner? Hum...)

If you have a counter statement to his post, counter his post and opinion with what you interpret the event stats to mean. You don't do this by attacks and insults.

Edited by Tesunie, 16 December 2015 - 09:04 AM.

[Kuritaclan]

Lily from animove, on 16 December 2015 - 06:57 AM, said:

Thats like comparing a swallow with a duck in their Rl habitat when you actually are in a topic about how to prepare the perfect thanks giving turkey.

You made my day.

[STEF_]

Tesunie, on 16 December 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

It's called a strawman argument. You can't/don't wish to argue the point, so instead you set up something else you can argue about to make the other person look bad, thus trying to discriminate their point in an obtuse manner.

However, I give that poster credit for admitting it wasn't good to do, and at least doing that much. Even though what was said can't be unsaid, and he would have lost my respect, he actually gained my respect by admitting his error. Everyone makes mistakes. Owning up to them is what gains respect.

Anyway, note that I still consider that guy a troll because I and many other wrote and explain why he is wrong, but nope....no way.
No strawman at all, I gave my reasons, read above, and many others too.
The fact is that the worse deaf is the one who refuses to listen
Or refuses to read the quirk list.

About me, still playing IS only, and waiting for the team to switch to IS too.
Also, my stats are far better with psr3 (three!) than clan stats. Figure now with psr4

Can anyone explain me why?
No better or worse pilot in this case.
I have more kills and dmg using IS.

Period.

[Tesunie]

Stefka Kerensky, on 16 December 2015 - 09:49 AM, said:

Can anyone explain me why?
No better or worse pilot in this case.
I have more kills and dmg using IS.

Period.

IS weapons tend to deal more pin point damage. This leads to more overall damage landing on target on average. Not always where you want it to mind.

Clans have better lasers, which have longer durations and reward staying on target longer. This tends to result in more splash damage over IS, who have a better time landing damage all onto one component. However, Clans have/had longer range, so they could deal their splash damage sooner, making them deal more damage overall.


It's like that with LRMs as well. LRMs are known for dealing a lot of damage, but it's all unfocused splash damage most times. This results in high damage stats, but that doesn't mean it was all efficient damage, as far as killing quickly.


Honestly, I felt that Clans and IS were far more balanced as of recent than they use to be. Am I claiming perfect balance now? Nope. But it's more reasonable now, and much closer.

[hybrid black]

Koshirou, on 16 December 2015 - 03:31 AM, said:

IS Mechs actually took slightly less damage to kill in BoT2 than in BoT1. So the vaunted structure buffs apparently had no real effect or were at the very least cancelled out by advantages on the Clan side. Also, IS damage output declined sharply, while Clan damage output increased even more sharply.
OTOH, Clan Mechs took a lot less damage to kill than in BoT1, which either means that some of the quirk changes since April have had a strong negative impact on Clan Mech survivability (I have not kept track of the changes, so I can't tell) or that IS players were actually better at shooting for effect than they were in BoT1 (which would of course blow the "IS noobs, L2P" explanations out of the water.)

or the best players in the game were clan

[demoyn]

Tesunie, on 16 December 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

Please try to remain civil.

No.

Tesunie, on 16 December 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

He's actually presented reasonable debates and points within this thread. I may disagree with him, but that doesn't make him invalid either.

No, he hasn't. You disagreeing with him doesn't make his "points" invalid. Being wrong makes his "points" invalid.

Tesunie, on 16 December 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

While on that note, I could make a Stormcrow fill a similar role as your proposed Griffin 3M that might lack Jump, but could be built with (S)SRMs and ERLLs, giving it vastly better range.

Of course you could, but it would suck. That's kind of the whole point. You can't build total trash and then use it to argue that the game balance is off because you get blown up constantly.

Tesunie, on 16 December 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

And... I do very well in my non-meta mechs. I play what I enjoy, and I've done well in any game mode. Can't say I'm top player, but I hold my own.

Objection, your honor. Relevance.

Nobody said anything about people having to play the meta. What we're saying is that you can't willfully avoid it and then cry because people trying to actually be good at the game are... *gasp*... better than people not trying to be.

Tesunie, on 16 December 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

He's probably on that cusp (which he admitted) between tiers. I was once T4, and when I was on the edge between T4 and T3, I would rise and fall in tier for a while for every win and loss. And losing streaks do happen, as most times players are PUGing, and they are paired up with 23 other players in a match who influence the win or loss.

Maybe you're unaware of this, but you can still go up rank in a loss. Even avoiding that, it's painfully easy to maintain the same tier during a loss. All you have to do is not suck.

Tesunie, on 16 December 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

Even then, his tier still had nothing to do with the thread, nor his posts. Even the poster who brought it up admitted his error on that, and gained respect from me for doing so.

It has EVERYTHING to do with this thread. The thread is about whether Clan mechs are overpowered or whether Inner Sphere players are just bad. He's living proof that it's probably the latter. Also, odds are that the player who first brought it up cares as much about your respect as I do, so...

Tesunie, on 16 December 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

It's called a strawman argument. You can't/don't wish to argue the point, so instead you set up something else you can argue about to make the other person look bad, thus trying to discriminate their point in an obtuse manner.

We argued his point... over, and over, and over. He chooses to remain willfully ignorant. He made HIMSELF look bad; we're just pointing it out.

Tesunie, on 16 December 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

Your post is rude, uncalled for, and is another attack on a fellow player. You are implying that IS did poorly because the OP is not a good player.

We're not implying anything. WE'RE FLAT OUT STATING IT. Clan won because they had better players on average. Why there's even a debate on this is mind boggling. There are threads all over the forums from people who tried every faction, and EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. says that Clan players are just better.

Edited by demoyn, 16 December 2015 - 01:50 PM.

[BluefireMW]

Tesunie, on 16 December 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:

IS weapons tend to deal more pin point damage. This leads to more overall damage landing on target on average. Not always where you want it to mind.

Clans have better lasers, which have longer durations and reward staying on target longer. This tends to result in more splash damage over IS, who have a better time landing damage all onto one component. However, Clans have/had longer range, so they could deal their splash damage sooner, making them deal more damage overall.


It's like that with LRMs as well. LRMs are known for dealing a lot of damage, but it's all unfocused splash damage most times. This results in high damage stats, but that doesn't mean it was all efficient damage, as far as killing quickly.


Honestly, I felt that Clans and IS were far more balanced as of recent than they use to be. Am I claiming perfect balance now? Nope. But it's more reasonable now, and much closer.

Clans have longer Range? You are kidding, or?