158 replies to this topic

[Dawnstealer]

Had three CW drops yesterday where a quarter to a third of my team was people who had never played the game before. Steamrolls, as you'd expect, but at least we were up against clanners who didn't talk too much trash - think that might have had them uninstalling immediately.

...Or just doing the inevitable and switching to Clans.

[Widowmaker1981]

Dawnstealer, on 15 December 2015 - 05:52 AM, said:

...Or just doing the inevitable and switching to Clans.

Which will REALLY disappoint them when they spend 10s of millions of C-bills only to find out that its not techline, but player skill that is the deciding factor.

[Rushin Roulette]

To be honest, Im all for making some hurdles for players to join in CW.

Played X amount of public games (50 sounds realistic, as this includes all Cadet bonus ones plus a few more to really get used to playing a mech while not being too high a number)
Completed the basic tutorial
At least one owned mech (Easy with Cadet bonus +5.000.200 Cbills from the Tutorial)

They should not be too high or unrealistic such as needing to be in a unit or play X amount of games in a group as this in no way means that the player is good or bad. Ive seen enough (also groups of) veteran players in units who are more than useless in CW even before the steam release and also enough solo players without a unit tag playing really well together with the rest of the team in CW to have any prejudices for or against either group.

Being new does not mean they are dumb. They just need to learn a few basic skills before they are thrown into the lions den that is sometimes CW. Being experienced and useless is another question all together and I see no way to realistically get these guys to play better short of a complete brain transplant.

[SovietArmada]

Interestingly I never really cared for this until considering this post. A bunch of new players being grouped against veterans can be a frustrating experience. And one such that can cause a player to drop this game immediately, potential revenue loss.

And I'm sure damage has been done for this that have been fed up with the CW. So I have to agree now, players need to meet some minimum before playing CW. Whether that be playing some X amount of games,or owning X amount of mechs, a restriction should be placed.

This restriction is not for us veterans to enjoy hopefully fun match ups, but to prevent new players from rage quitting. While our unit helps new players, and we are helpful in the Steiner hub, when too many greens are matched up together, it can create bad experiences and generate poor views towards the game.

[Minasojo]

After Tukayyid 2 was over I found myself just a few % short of my next Loyalty tier/reward so i'd decided "Why not." and drop the few more that I would need, and then go back to Quick Matches once finished. I did, and this discussion made me think back on one PUG drop I had which was somewhat relevant.

It was a Match that ended in Victory, results screen Scores read:
1200+ for myself,
One of my teammates had 300+
Barely a handful's worth had anything between 100~300
Majority of players were in the range of 20~100.

My initial thoughts of "Wow I did awesome!" or accomplishment was actually offset by the following feeling that I was the odd player out that didn't really belong in that match...

Edited by Minasojo, 15 December 2015 - 05:07 PM.

[B0oN]

+1 Lord Scarlett
I´m still saying: 100-300 (maybe make it XP gated, so that an AVERAGE pc-player (not you consoleros, no, cause you´re not as used to mouse and keyboard and all that funky jazz stuff as the other bunch) with an IQ of 60 or above can attain that "gate threshold") pub games as minimum, then be allowed to go and have some Commodity Waffles .

By the way of an addendum :

MS is very sorry for bringing 8+mans yesterday, we are trying to keep our groups small ... but we are so damn chatty and social

Edited by Rad Hanzo, 15 December 2015 - 07:09 AM.

[STEF_]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 14 December 2015 - 01:09 PM, said:

The warning prompt isn't working. They never do and they never will.

There needs to be a "You have yet to meet the minimum criteria to participate in this game mode" and list what the player needs to work towards to open that mode up to them.

CW is end game content and PGI has mentioned that themselves. It's time to gate off the end game content like every other game with end game content.

QQ apologized profusely, and for any of them that had All Chat enabled I told them about the Steiner hub TS and gave them the address to. Sadly, All Chat being off by default (IIRC) likely prevented any of them from seeing the messages that were sent about community resources to help them out.

And that's not the only time that happened, earlier in the day when I was solo CW I was on the 'getting rolled' side by 10-12 man IS units like SROT, Sons of Odin, and BSK. In the one against SROT, we had four guys claim it was their first day playing; in the one against Sons of Odin, we had two who claimed it was their first match and three more claiming it was their third and fourth; And against BSK, we had two guys claiming their first day.

Of all those new players, half said they were uninstalling after that match as the game was poorly balanced if it pitted large groups of veteran players against brand new solo players.

Steam is good for the game because we're seeing loads of new players. But we're seeing them in the wrong game mode for a new player.


It would behoove PGI, MWO's Steam reviews, and Steam player retention if CW Phase 3 locks out new players that haven't met a certain set of criteria.

I still remember this:
http://mwomercs.com/...munity-warfare/

and all the sh1tstorm made by proud solos refusing to join a unit.

[Varvar86]

Soon very soon it will be over.

[SovietArmada]

Varvar86, on 15 December 2015 - 07:11 AM, said:

Soon very soon it will be over.

That's right i forgot when i posted . I'll actually hold my opinion and wait for the results of phase 3.

[Hal Greaves]

Varvar86, on 15 December 2015 - 07:11 AM, said:

Soon very soon it will be over.

I really doubt this will work out the way you think it will work out, there arn't that many units playing CW as it is.

[Crockdaddy]

We consistently try to communicate with enemy pugs. Get them into TS. Tell them about hubs. We spend a fair amount of time each CW match trying to do outreach. It behooves most of the organized units to do this.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

PerfectDuck, on 15 December 2015 - 03:35 AM, said:

snip

I agree with wholeheartedly all but your first point, which I would modify slightly.

I don't have an issue with solo players joining matches with me. I solo CW far more than play in a group. I'd much rather play solo CW than the regular solo queue because there is no matchmaker, that way I'm not fighting other Tier 1 players while having to drag a bunch of Tier 3.99 players that are trying to throw matches kicking and screaming to victory.

I understand there is a solid chance of having to fight a large group, and that doesn't bother me. I've yet to be beaten so badly that I have dealt less than 1000 damage in a CW match.

But, there are two players that are a massive liability to the team: the brand new kid and the 'pro' solo.

One is a liability simply due to a lack necessary knowledge, skills, and equipment.

The other is a liability because they're usually antisocial, narcissistic bints/wankers that don't play well with others.



There's a reason Tier 1 players don't match against Tiers 4 and 5. Usually because those players are simply too green to be put in matches against Tier 1s and need the protection of a matchmaker.

Closing off CW until meeting a set criteria is necessary because brand new players need the protection of a gate.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Karamarka, on 15 December 2015 - 04:32 AM, said:

yes there is a problem but it is not a problem premade vs pug

what about the veteran pugs vs new player pugs, going to ban them to their own veteran circle too?

lets run many matchmakers at once.

1) veterans only
2) premade only
3) unit premade only
4) new player only
5) normal player only

enjoy

No. The issue is a brand new player vs veteran players.

As I mentioned, I solo CW far more than group up for it. Since steam release I have seen about 40 players admit to it being their first day of playing. Half of those said they were done with the game after that match, some didn't wait til after and quit mid match.

That's the problem.

If CW is considered endgame content, why do brand new accounts have access to it?

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Rushin Roulette, on 15 December 2015 - 06:22 AM, said:

Being new does not mean they are dumb. They just need to learn a few basic skills before they are thrown into the lions den that is sometimes CW. Being experienced and useless is another question all together and I see no way to realistically get these guys to play better short of a complete brain transplant.

SovietArmada, on 15 December 2015 - 06:40 AM, said:

This restriction is not for us veterans to enjoy hopefully fun match ups, but to prevent new players from rage quitting. While our unit helps new players, and we are helpful in the Steiner hub, when too many greens are matched up together, it can create bad experiences and generate poor views towards the game.

These two posts nail what I'm getting at.

Soviet said it best, "This restriction is not for us veterans to enjoy hopefully fun match ups, but to prevent new players from rage quitting."

[TWIAFU]

Varvar86, on 15 December 2015 - 07:11 AM, said:

Soon very soon it will be over.

Your going to be very unhappy.

[multisoul]

consider this:
the first minutes of "saving private Ryan" were quite realistic. it is always funny how can you not land 1 alpha strike with each mech and make below 150 dmg, but humans are amazing.
in terms of roleplay you must imagine that during each battle some mech recruit gets the worst possible panic attack. including but not only causing circuit overload due to body fluids of all kinds causing damage to the sensitive electronic and controls around the pilot.
ask Private Kerensky who i left behind cleaning crapped IS cockpits after combat

Edited by multisoul, 15 December 2015 - 11:45 AM.

[Kjudoon]

If you just make it "no trial mechs" that will be a large impediment. Why? Gotta buy 4 mechs, and that, as far as I know still can't be done with only the cadet bonus. But maybe I'm wrong now.

That also said, there needs to be UNIT PSR Tiers where you face higher quality opponents and get better payouts for the difficulty. Sorry, but we have too much intramural football teams facing off against pro team scenarios going on. So reward good players with better payouts for facing good teams, or put up a penalty/bonus for large PSR differentials.

Honestly, this no holds barred stuff is a portion of what's hurting this mode.

Edited by Kjudoon, 15 December 2015 - 12:07 PM.

[PFC Carsten]

Hal Greaves, on 15 December 2015 - 07:28 AM, said:

I really doubt this will work out the way you think it will work out, there arn't that many units playing CW as it is.

Yet they are the ones calling for it in one way or another. Me, I'm all for it.

[DustySkunk]

Really I think it's as simple as removing trials from CW. Here's a reworked excerpt from another post of mine in a different thread:

Two nights ago I dropped with a PUG group in CW and two of our teammates had never played a match. At all. Zero. They saw faction warfare, thought "Smoke Jaguar looks cool" and dropped. Literal questions our team fielded from these guys:

"So the red triangles are bad guys?"
"Can I repair?" (this one multiple times through the match)
"Where do I go?"
"For real? Friendly fire is a thing?"
"Why am I dying so quickly?"

As someone who mainly PUGs in CW at the moment (yes I'm a masochist apparently) this is a somewhat common occurrence. I'm sure you all have had similar experiences in PUG CW matches.

I recommended that they do the tutorial. They said they had (apparently the game now forces it on you if you've never played before). They knew how to walk and fire weapons... that was about what the tutorial was good for.

Eliminating trials creates a barrier to entry, yes. I just can't help but feel that the barrier is a necessary one. You don't give a soldier a gun who's never shot a rifle and send them to battle. CW is endgame content meant to expand upon the base game modes that we play in the single player queue and offer more depth. It's meant to be brutal. Even with updated trials, a player needs to have some experience under their belt before they step into that arena.

If you don't have four mechs (never mind mastered mechs, just four mechs period) to your name yet, are you really likely to be ready for CW at all? I'm sure there are exceptions, but I'd be willing to bet that most people dropping in CW in trials probably have no business being there in the first place. I'm also willing to bet that most people dropping in trials are brand new or really green. Therefore, building a drop deck to get into CW becomes a progression mechanic, and something to aspire to while also keeping brand new players out of CW.

That's just my two cents.

Edited by DustySkunk, 15 December 2015 - 02:02 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Kjudoon, on 15 December 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

If you just make it "no trial mechs" that will be a large impediment. Why? Gotta buy 4 mechs, and that, as far as I know still can't be done with only the cadet bonus. But maybe I'm wrong now.

DustySkunk, on 15 December 2015 - 01:53 PM, said:

Eliminating trials creates a barrier to entry, yes. I just can't help but feel that the barrier is a necessary one. You don't give a soldier a gun who's never shot a rifle and send them to battle. CW is endgame content meant to expand upon the base game modes that we play in the single player queue and offer more depth. It's meant to be brutal. Even with updated trials, a player needs to have some experience under their belt before they step into that arena.

If you don't have four mechs (never mind mastered mechs, just four mechs period) to your name yet, are you really likely to be ready for CW at all? I'm sure there are exceptions, but I'd be willing to bet that most people dropping in CW in trials probably have no business being there in the first place. I'm also willing to bet that most people dropping in trials are brand new or really green. Therefore, building a drop deck to get into CW becomes a progression mechanic, and something to aspire to while also keeping brand new players out of CW.

That's just my two cents.

I don't like the idea of barring trials because the trials aren't useless anymore.

I want to bar players that haven't finished their cadet bonus, haven't bought a mech, still really don't even know how to play the game.

My preferred requirements to entry for CW:
-completed Cadet bonus
-completed tutorial
-bought first mech
-played 100 solo/group matches total

After those minimum requirements, CW opens up to them. And since 4v4 is coming, I say limit people to that 4v4 mode until they've met a further set of requirements:
-played an additional 100 matches in solo/group
OR
-played 25 4v4 CW matches



I've seen ideas thrown around of limiting CW by tier, limiting it to mastered only mechs, limiting it to only owned mechs, etc. I'm not fond of any of those ideas. CW is for the most part, a really fun mode, and I prefer to play solo there than I do in the actual solo queue. As a Tier 1 in solo queue I can't take bad mechs out like my stock Adder Prime, my Pretty Baby, or my stock+ AWS-8Q and have fun. I can do that in CW.

I don't mind coming across large groups in CW as a solo'er. For every time I get wafflestomped by a large unit there were five or six matches where both sides were skittles, essentially. I've even regularly partake in skittles groups that beat 12mans.

Kjudoon, on 15 December 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

That also said, there needs to be UNIT PSR Tiers where you face higher quality opponents and get better payouts for the difficulty. Sorry, but we have too much intramural football teams facing off against pro team scenarios going on. So reward good players with better payouts for facing good teams, or put up a penalty/bonus for large PSR differentials.

I have no problem with this. Greater risks should equal greater rewards.

But never penalize a group of Tier 1s and 2s for getting matched against a group of Tier 4s and 5s. Give the 1s and 2s no bonuses and the 4s and 5s HUGE bonuses, but never penalize earnings for matchmaker.