77 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

If Ghost Heat allows 6CMPL + 2 CLPL (74 damage) to be fired without penalty, then the following should be allowed to be fired without a heat penalty:

7 PPCs
14 IS MLs
8 IS LLs
5 CLPL
24 IS SL
7 AC/10
3 AC/20
10 CERML

So, how do we all feel about the way Ghost Heat is implemented?

One of the drawbacks about the Ghost Heat system is that you CAN clump mixed weapons into a single Ghost Heat group (I.e. considering ML and MPL are counted as the same), but we have not seem any evidence that weapons can be treated both individually and as part of a group.

For instance, a "proper" Ghost Heat system would allow you to fire 6 CERMLs, OR 2 CLPL, OR 4 CERML + 2 CLPL. You should not be allowed to fire 6+2. Same with IS Lasers, you should not be able to fire a full load of MLs and a load of LLs at the same time.

In wonder if the Ghost Heat system can accommodate that feature, because it would really help the system.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 17 December 2015 - 10:21 AM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Agree...the system is arbitrary and not well thought out. Get rid of ghost heat and adjust heat cap/dissipation (like people have mentioned for years now).

[kesmai]

lol


wait...
i see what you did here.

[Gas Guzzler]

Prosperity Park, on 17 December 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

If Ghost Heat allows 6CMPL + 2 CLPL (74 damage) to be fired without penalty, then the following should be allowed to be fired without a heat penalty:

7 PPCs
14 IS MLs
8 IS LLs
5 CLPL
24 IS SL
7 AC/10
3 AC/20
10 CERML

So, how do we all feel about the way Ghost Heat is implemented?

One of the drawbacks about the Ghost Heat system is that you CAN clump mixed weapons into a single Ghost Heat group (I.e. considering ML and MPL are counted as the same), but we have not seem any evidence that weapons can be treated both individually and as part of a group.

For instance, a "proper" Ghost Heat system would allow you to fire 6 CERMLs, OR 2 CLPL, OR 4 CERML + 2 CLPL. You should not be allowed to fire 6+2. Same with IS Lasers, you should not be able to fire a full load of MLs and a load of LLs at the same time.

In wonder if the Ghost Heat system can accommodate that feature, because it would really help the system.

You are proposing capping IS laser vomit platforms to 3LPL+3MLs which is 48 damage at 270 meters nominally, versus the Clan limit of 2 cLPL and 4 cERMLs which is 54 damage at 405 meters nominally. This wouldn't even change anything for Clan mechs, most do not run more than 4+2. IS mechs usually take advantage of a 4th or 5th ML, which would impact them.

[El Bandito]

This is why Power Draw system is infinitely better than Ghost Heat.

[kapusta11]

Put all medium and large clan lasers in the same linked penalty group and cap it at 5.

Cap clam ERML and MPL at 5

Put all IS medium and large lasers in the same GH penalty group and cap it at 6

Done.

The max you can get for clans is 2x LPL (since individual penalty stays) + 3x ERML. Well technically 3xMPL offer more damage but they don't sync well in burn duration and range with LPLs

The max you can get for IS is 3x LPL + 3x ML. Of course lesser loadouts like 2x LPL + 4x ML are still an option

Edited by kapusta11, 17 December 2015 - 10:44 AM.

[Lyoto Machida]

So those in favor of keeping ghost heat...where do new players find the heat penalties in game again?

[Lostdragon]

Why jump through all these hoops for ghost heat instead of just lowering the heat cap and adjusting heat on weapons such that it is not possible to fire a huge alpha without shutting down? It would be so much easier for everyone.

[Kushko]

*edit* Nvm. Read the OP wrong.

I agree that ghost heat could use a rework. But you can't really compare the no heat penalty damage output of 2 different weapons to the damage output with no heat penalty of a single weapon type and size.

Edited by Kushko, 17 December 2015 - 10:48 AM.

[Cementi]

Why not tie it to the damage potential if all the weapons fired were doing optimal damage so people cannot game the system.

Choose a reasonable value. Maybe 30 which would allow double clan ERPPC's, double gauss and triple ERPPC/PPC for IS. For missles that would allow a LRM 30 and SRM 14, solid volleys for both. Then add a heat penalty for each point fired over that potential but not a percentage. An actual static number say 1 heat for each point of damage over the alpha strike threshold of 30. So if you decided to alpha 40 points you would incur an additonal penalty of 10 heat no matter what configuration of weapons you fire.

My current AS7-S has a potential alpha strike of 91.6 damage. It can do this without incuring any ghost heat and depending on the map, can do it a second time after only a slight delay. Sure it can be hard to bring to bear sometimes but when it works I have cored out fresh heavies with a single volley.

The one thing I might suggest with this system is that LBX, LRM, SRM and SSRM contributions to the potential damage might need to be reduced as they are not pin point damage. Artemis launchers should probally stay full value though.

Edited by Cementi, 17 December 2015 - 11:10 AM.

[cazidin]

Clearly, the solution is to reduce the ghost heat for medium lasers and medium pulse lasers to about... 3 or 4. Minus 1 if a Clan laser. Don't laugh at me. You know PGI will take this seriously.

[Mothykins]

I for one support the return of our Hexa-stalker overlords.

[Antares102]

Agreed, current ghost heat system makes no sense considering the OPs weapon conbination.

Edited by Antares102, 17 December 2015 - 11:12 AM.

[adamts01]

Lostdragon, on 17 December 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

Why jump through all these hoops for ghost heat instead of just lowering the heat cap and adjusting heat on weapons such that it is not possible to fire a huge alpha without shutting down? It would be so much easier for everyone.

I'm all for changing the system. But some mechs, mostly lights, have a hard life as it is without higher heat with a lower cap. If they drastically lowered the cap, to non-alpha levels, and drastically increased cooling, that might work.

OP: I don't know what mech can run 6mpl + 2lpl whithout being a seriously 1 trick pony. I run 5ml 2lpl in my timby and it's hot as balls. Plus, 2 damage spread over 1.25 seconds is totally different from 72 instant damage.

[Almond Brown]

El Bandito, on 17 December 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

This is why Power Draw system is infinitely better than Ghost Heat.

Even that system would be a tank to balance when based on Engine size. The I.S. XL engine, that would afford more engine and thus Power to draw is just no a viable deal with many I.S. chassis. Lights, and some Mediums may get enough bonus/benefit, but heavy STD engines would suck up all the tonnage players would want to use for extra weapons that would draw said "extra" power.

So nope. Can't see a "Power Draw" system passing the "balance" muster test here on the Forums...

P.S. But if you have a completed and balanced set of Engines and their final individual "Power Ratings" that we could Test/Kick around, that would be cool...

P.S.S. Oh and the Clans engines, sans IIC, are locked down...

Edited by Almond Brown, 17 December 2015 - 11:38 AM.

[adamts01]

Cementi, on 17 December 2015 - 11:09 AM, said:

Why not tie it to the damage potential if all the weapons fired were doing optimal damage so people cannot game the system.

Choose a reasonable value. Maybe 30 which would allow double clan ERPPC's, double gauss and triple ERPPC/PPC for IS.

30 is weak dude. What would even be the point of bringing anything but a light if everyone had the same firepower and speed is generally better protection than armor? I've never owned an assault but I'm fine with them having a stupid high alpha, they weigh 3x as much as my Jenner. Now my Clan Oxide with a 74 point alpha, 140kph speed with full armor is just stupid.

[Dimento Graven]

Almond Brown, on 17 December 2015 - 11:37 AM, said:

...

P.S.S. Oh and the Clans engines, sans IIC, are locked down...

Yeah but Clan hard points, sans IIC, are NOT...

[Metus regem]

Cavale, on 17 December 2015 - 11:11 AM, said:

I for one support the return of our Hexa-stalker overlords.

Don't need too, you can do this for LOLz:

DIRE ERPPC

[Gas Guzzler]

I guess you should look at what mechs these builds would be viable on.

The build in the OP you could only do on a Dire, and you would have 28 DHS, with like 7 tons left over and no slots. Do you think that would be a great build? Probably not the best Dire you could make.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Homeless Bill said it best a few years ago, Ghost Heat is irrelevant. It's overcome in the mechlab.

That's why the Stalker went from being King of the Hill with 2 PPCs, 2 ERPPCs. To being totally outclassed by Highlanders with two UAC5s, 2 PPCs.