482 replies to this topic

[Xhaleon]

I only just discovered this thread so I haven't had the time to read through it yet, but my thoughts on the matter: Heat on PPCs aren't the biggest issue, velocity is. PPC quirked mechs work well enough and when you look the very best ones, their velocity quirks tend towards +40% to +50%! ERPPC heat is too high, but CERPPC can have traits to balance it out.

Personal statspread:

PPC
- velocity 1500, best quirked mechs bring it up to ~1750 and no higher
- bring back linear damage scaling for shots under 90 meters

ERPPC
- velocity 1800, best quirked mechs bring it up to ~2000 and no higher
- heat 13
> keep in mind that some mechs have ballistic velocity quirks so their gauss rifles are still even faster than this high bar of 2000

CERPPC
- velocity 1500, best quirked omnipods and mechs bring it up to ~1700 and no higher
- heat 15
- damage 13, spread 1 dmg x 2 hits (total 15)

Pariah Devalis, on 19 December 2015 - 10:09 AM, said:

To be fair and cut right to the core: Unless they revert the changes to Jump Jets, the poptart era is not coming back. At the least not on heavy and assault mechs.

They could end it entirely by making the spread penalty apply even when free falling, but to a reduced degree. Any reservations about buffing projectile weapons due to poptart potential would be completely nullified after that.

Edited by Xhaleon, 19 December 2015 - 10:28 AM.

[Lockon StratosII]

Ultimatum X, on 19 December 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

When you have 2x AC 5s or UAC 5s as back up, the heat on 2 PPCs isn't an issue.

Kapusta's build can alpha non-stop for almost 30s straight, and when switching to just AC 5s can fire indefinitely.

And that is exactly the point why we should change them some other way than reducing heat and/or increasing speed. They will always be paired with AC line, and maybe as not of a big deal in that particular build, but imagine swapping those 2 AC5s for AC20 or gauss, or even the impact of the fabled holly grail that is 2ppc 2gauss.

PPC on it's own isn't the issue, it is the fact it is used as a supplement for main AC guns because of the high dmg/tonnage ratio for PPFLD weapon where it should be used as a sidegrade to them or as a main weapon on it's own

[Bishop Steiner]

Xhaleon, on 19 December 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

I only just discovered this thread so I haven't had the time to read through it yet, but my thoughts on the matter: Heat on PPCs aren't the biggest issue, velocity is. PPC quirked mechs work well enough and when you look the very best ones, their velocity quirks tend towards +40% to +50%! ERPPC heat is too high, but CERPPC can have traits to balance it out.

Personal statspread:

PPC
- velocity 1500, best quirked mechs bring it up to ~1750 and no higher
- bring back linear damage scaling for shots under 90 meters

ERPPC
- velocity 1800, best quirked mechs bring it up to ~2000 and no higher
- heat 13

CERPPC
- velocity 1500, best quirked omnipods and mechs bring it up to ~1700 and no higher
- heat 15
- damage 13, spread 1 dmg x 2 hits (total 15)


They could end it entirely by making the spread penalty apply even when free falling, but to a reduced degree. Any reservations about buffing projectile weapons would be completely nullified after that.

I can tell you now, 13 heat and 1800+ velocity will reintroduce the PPCSpam meta. For a fact.

[Pariah Devalis]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 December 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

I can tell you now, 13 heat and 1800+ velocity will reintroduce the PPCSpam meta. For a fact.

That said, for someone who only skimmed it, I gotta say the parallels to the original suggestions are interesting. I'm also interested in that there is a lot less resistance to the idea of higher PP damage C-ERPPC (as long as the IS PPC series get buffed in their own way as well).

[Quaamik]

Pariah Devalis, on 19 December 2015 - 10:02 AM, said:

Further, PPFLD is one area that the Clans will never be equal at vs the IS.

IS: AC2, 5, 10, 20, UAC5, Gauss, PPC, ERPPC.
C: AC2, UAC2, Gauss, ERPPC.

IS literally have twice the options to inflict pinpoint front loaded damage, of which the ERPPC family in both cases is currently not a serious factor. In addition, the current burn durations of IS lasers are so short that, while technically not PPFLD, get pretty close to it now. Especially taking quirks into consideration.

A somewhat sluggish but hard hitting C-ERPPC would foot the bill for the Clan side. Making it hot would be the trade off - and it is already plenty hot. High PPFLD but low sustained damage due to heat concerns and, as a result, difficult to boat effectively. More of a mid range weapon than a brawling one, really, simply due to heat concerns alone.

In reality you can remove all the "2"s from that list. Because a pinpoint 2 is no better than a single hit from an SRM.

So the Clans have Gauss and ER PPCs. 15 and 10 pinpoint damage respectively.
IS has those, plus the much lower heat PPC, AC10 and AC20. 10, 10 and 20 pionpoint damage respectively.

Lowering the heat on both types of ER PPCs would make the Clan more playable, but not effect the balance. Increasing damage on both IS PPCs, and making it splash damage would make them more viable but without increasing pinpoint would not make them meta.

The synced PPC / Gauss, or PPC / AC is unlikely to be an issue without the pop tart (JJs are already fixed). The only real threats are the Dire Wolf and King Crab that can boat two pair. But sync problems should be delt with as SYNC PROBLEMS. They have ghost heat (it sucks, but it's not going away). They use it to stop multiple PPCs. Use it to prevent PPCs from ring synced with anything that causes a problem.

[Ultimax]

Lockon StratosII, on 19 December 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:

And that is exactly the point why we should change them some other way than reducing heat and/or increasing speed. They will always be paired with AC line, and maybe as not of a big deal in that particular build, but imagine swapping those 2 AC5s for AC20 or gauss, or even the impact of the fabled holly grail that is 2ppc 2gauss.

PPC on it's own isn't the issue, it is the fact it is used as a supplement for main AC guns because of the high dmg/tonnage ratio for PPFLD weapon where it should be used as a sidegrade to them or as a main weapon on it's own

I don't care.

I'm fine with those builds.

You are talking about THIRTY FIVE TONS of weapons & ammo for AC5x2+PPCx2, THIRTY TWO TONS of weapons and ammo for Gauss+2x PPCs and low overal DPS, THIRTY THREE TONS of weapons and ammo for AC20+2xPPC on a build with wildly different weapon range effectiveness.

The reason lasers are stronger right now is because you can suppliment BIG LASERS with LIGHT LASERS and have synergy (a thing that smart people build for).

You can't synergize PPCs (firing mechanics) with anything lighter, the only things it synergies with are other heavy weapons (projectiles/ballistics).

So they will either remain a sub-par weapon that you can't synch with other effective things, or people can just get over it and we can have more build diversity.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 19 December 2015 - 10:53 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 19 December 2015 - 10:51 AM, said:

I don't care.

I'm fine with those builds.

You are talking about THIRTY FIVE TONS of weapons & ammo for AC5x2+PPCx2, THIRTY TWO TONS of weapons and ammo for Gauss+2x PPCs and low overal DPS, THIRTY THREE TONS of weapons and ammo for AC20+2xPPC on a build with wildly different weapon range effectiveness.

The reason lasers are stronger right now is because you can suppliment BIG LASERS with LIGHT LASERS and have synergy (a thing that smart people build for).

You can't synergize PPCs (firing mechanics) with anything lighter, the only things it synergies with are other heavy weapons (projectiles/ballistics).

So they will either remain a sub-par weapon that you can't synch with other effective things, or people can just get over it and we can have more build diversity.

It's nice to finally be agreeing with Ulti on something again.

[chewie]

I've been trying to work out, just why, PPC projectile speeds should be different.

An ERPPC for IS is just a longer range, same damage, but also hotter in Tabletop, but isnt affected by minimum range.

But why have a different projectile speed?

It serves no purpose other then to give a reason to use something less or more based on those speeds rather than heat or damage.

Personally, I'd like to see the IS ERPPC mirror the standard PPC but with the extra heat and no minimum range penalty.

But as far as the speed, no, should be the same, its not like is a ballistic weapon of different bore/damage/fire rates.

[Xhaleon]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 December 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

I can tell you now, 13 heat and 1800+ velocity will reintroduce the PPCSpam meta. For a fact.

Well if you think that 13 heat is too low for that kind of speed, what would be better for it? Is the property that is really holding back PPFLD abuse more of a velocity or a heat question? I used those stats because from my experience, 15 heat and buffed velocity on my old AWS-9M was still a pain to deal with no matter what kind of situation I used it for. At 13 to 14 heat, it is still going to lose out to virtually anything else once the ridge humping session is over.

As for the CERPPC, I do not think it is fair that the hitscan Clan large pulse laser deals more pinpoint damage than the cannon and does almost as much as the total with the splash included, all for a very modest burn time. This strange relationship was a result of them increasing the damage of all large-size lasers across the board, and me no likey it.

Pariah Devalis, on 19 December 2015 - 10:27 AM, said:

That said, for someone who only skimmed it, I gotta say the parallels to the original suggestions are interesting. I'm also interested in that there is a lot less resistance to the idea of higher PP damage C-ERPPC (as long as the IS PPC series get buffed in their own way as well).

I think that the Spheroid ERPPC shouldn't get more powerful and it should remain pretty hot to preserve its character, so the only thing I can think of is to make its velocity far and above the Clan version as its unique shtick (a very accurate projectile sniper weapon). This is completely unlike our current IS ERLL, which has been made to be barely hotter than the regular one as opposed to the positively sweltering tabletop ERLL!

Edited by Xhaleon, 19 December 2015 - 11:05 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Xhaleon, on 19 December 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

Well if you think that 13 heat is too low for that kind of speed, what would be better for it? Is the property that is really holding back PPFLD abuse more of a velocity or a heat question? I used those stats because from my experience, 15 heat and buffed velocity on my old AWS-9M was still a pain to deal with no matter what kind of situation I used it for. At 13 to 14 heat, it is still going to lose out to virtually anything else once the ridge humping session is over.

As for the CERPPC, I do not think it is fair that the hitscan Clan large pulse laser deals more pinpoint damage than the cannon and does almost as much as the total with the splash included, all for a very modest burn time. This strange relationship was a result of them increasing the damage of all large-size lasers across the board, and me no likey it.


I think that the Spheroid ERPPC shouldn't get more powerful and it should remain pretty hot to preserve its character, so the only thing I can think of is to make its velocity far and above the Clan version as its unique shtick (a very accurate projectile sniper weapon). This is completely unlike our current IS ERLL, which has been made to be barely hotter than the regular one as opposed to the positively sweltering tabletop ERLL!

which brings up a point..does ISERLL need heat increased?

And, in honesty, should ALL range quirks be removed?

[Quaamik]

As to making PPCs cause an enemy to lose lock: it wouldn't be that effective. Missile boats often have the module that allows them to track longer after losing line of sight. Unless the time a PPC hit interfered with lock was excessive long it wouldn't help. If it was that excessively long it would globally change gameplay, causing all kinds of balancing or problems.

Other things, shake, heat input, visual flare, would be nice effects but I don't see them as good balancers. Heat input might be, but it depends far to much on not only how an opponent is built but in how hot they are at the moment, unless its high enough to seriously affect cool builds, which turns it into a killer against hot mechs (and makes it OP).

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 December 2015 - 10:56 AM, said:

It's nice to finally be agreeing with Ulti on something again.

Well, it is the holiday season.

[Deathlike]

Ultimatum X, on 19 December 2015 - 11:09 AM, said:

Well, it is the holiday season.

Well, I could regift my ERPPC thoughts with LBX or Flamers.

[Xhaleon]

Dear Santa,

Next Christmas, I would like to see the introduction of melee combat so my big beefy PPC arm can slap lights around when they try to get within 90 meters. Pretty please.

[Lockon StratosII]

Ultimatum X, on 19 December 2015 - 10:51 AM, said:

I don't care.

I'm fine with those builds.

You are talking about THIRTY FIVE TONS of weapons & ammo for AC5x2+PPCx2, THIRTY TWO TONS of weapons and ammo for Gauss+2x PPCs and low overal DPS, THIRTY THREE TONS of weapons and ammo for AC20+2xPPC on a build with wildly different weapon range effectiveness.

The reason lasers are stronger right now is because you can suppliment BIG LASERS with LIGHT LASERS and have synergy (a thing that smart people build for).

You can't synergize PPCs (firing mechanics) with anything lighter, the only things it synergies with are other heavy weapons (projectiles/ballistics).

So they will either remain a sub-par weapon that you can't synch with other effective things, or people can just get over it and we can have more build diversity.

Well, maybe you don't care, but a lot of people did during sniping/poptart era.

Synergy is something players will always look for, balance should prevent synergetic weapons from becoming overpowered (just like the laser vomit of today)

Lastly I am not trying to keep PPC line a second tier weapon, just not to buff it to the state that brought us here in the first place (which a lot of suggestions here aim to do, intentionally or not)

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 19 December 2015 - 11:09 AM, said:

Well, it is the holiday season.

but....I don't celebrate the hollydaze......

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 19 December 2015 - 11:15 AM, said:

Well, I could regift my ERPPC thoughts with LBX or Flamers.

I think I'll ask Santa for some LB buffs this year.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 19 December 2015 - 11:39 AM, said:

I think I'll ask Santa for some LB buffs this year.

what a coincidence...
http://mwomercs.com/...and-discussion/
Don't Forget to Thank Pariah Claus and leave him some cookies

[Pariah Devalis]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 December 2015 - 11:42 AM, said:

what a coincidence...
http://mwomercs.com/...and-discussion/
Don't Forget to Thank Pariah Claus and leave him some cookies

I prefer a copious amount of White Russians, TYVM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Pariah Devalis, on 19 December 2015 - 12:27 PM, said:

I prefer a copious amount of White Russians, TYVM.

copious quantities of White Russians it is then... (and I'm heading over to ....er...supervise....)