482 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Pariah Devalis, on 26 December 2015 - 03:11 PM, said:

Further, the biggest boon to harder hitting ERPPC (or PPC in general) will be to smaller mechs that practically can only make use of a single one, directly buffing mechs like, say, the Shadow Cat, Kit Fox, or Mist Lynx.

The factor everyone overlooks in their fear of "PPCasaurus Rex"....... that those single or double PPC carriers get screwed by this (plus there are light ppcs, snub nose ppcs, etc in the future for plinker ppcs) and thus the only time you would see those PPCs MAYBE...is on mechs that could boat them.

Or maybe...we fix the actual dang weapon, and on certain broken chassis that might be OP with them.... you introduce negative quirks, as was done with the DWF already.

But that is too logical I guess.

[Pariah Devalis]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 December 2015 - 03:16 PM, said:

The factor everyone overlooks in their fear of "PPCasaurus Rex"....... that those single or double PPC carriers get screwed by this (plus there are light ppcs, snub nose ppcs, etc in the future for plinker ppcs) and thus the only time you would see those PPCs MAYBE...is on mechs that could boat them.

Or maybe...we fix the actual dang weapon, and on certain broken chassis that might be OP with them.... you introduce negative quirks, as was done with the DWF already.

But that is too logical I guess.

Seriously. God forbid quirks get used for their originally intended purpose: to bring certain specific mechs into line. Also, when was the last time someone complained about the potential damage output of the Warhawk? I'm honestly shocked that mech came up. o_0 I mean, it has so many flaws, and was purpose made as a gunboat anyways.... It's the Clan Awesome!

That's probably why I love it so much. Fast Clan Awesome.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 26 December 2015 - 03:21 PM.

[Quaamik]

I brought up increasing splash to compensate for heat reduction (in the case of the IS ERPPC a drastic one) because the suggestion of reducing its heat by one or two with the same as current damage was met with cries of the sky would fill with lightning.

I brought up the Warhawk for the specific reason that it is not viable in its stock configuration, let alone a top tier mech configured with 4 c-ERPPCs. That shows how far they are from being viable. Yet the IS ERPPC would need 5 points of splash damage ADDED just to reach the same, gimped state c-ERPPCs are at now.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: all three need to do more damage than heat to work. Because the IS ERPPC is so far off that, a first pass might have to settle on it being damage / heat neutral, but that's the minimum needed to make it functional, and the other two have to have more damage than heat.

Edited by Quaamik, 26 December 2015 - 10:41 PM.

[Quaamik]

As far as CERPPCs in mediums. A Shadowcat can run 2 with ease. It has trouble when they are allowed, but the can sequence nicely. Damage output isn't worth it though. If it was all pinpoint it likely would be (just with that change).

But how do you answer the players who scream that 15 pinpoint is OP in a weapon with no ammo limit? I know Id have a te fancy to pop off shots at long range if they stood any chance of connecting, because the potential damage would be worth it.

And worse yet, his then to differentiate it from the IS version? Lower the heat and raise damage on it? Doable, but people scream that it will break the game to drop them below 15 heat.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quaamik, on 26 December 2015 - 10:52 PM, said:

As far as CERPPCs in mediums. A Shadowcat can run 2 with ease. It has trouble when they are allowed, but the can sequence nicely. Damage output isn't worth it though. If it was all pinpoint it likely would be (just with that change).

But how do you answer the players who scream that 15 pinpoint is OP in a weapon with no ammo limit? I know Id have a te fancy to pop off shots at long range if they stood any chance of connecting, because the potential damage would be worth it.

And worse yet, his then to differentiate it from the IS version? Lower the heat and raise damage on it? Doable, but people scream that it will break the game to drop them below 15 heat.

when chicken little scream the sky is falling?

I tend to ignore them and let the facts sort things out.

Making bad changes just to assauge people who cry because they got killed? Is largely why we are where we are at.

Also, where have I proposed 15 pp dmg for less heat? Oh..yeah. I didn't. 12.5 for 14 ht. Little different story. Let's stick to the facts, shall we?

So you can propose bad compromises and acquiesce, I'll stay the course to see meaningful and useful changes made.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 26 December 2015 - 11:06 PM.

[RoboGerbil]

What if the ppc temporarily disabled a component in the area it hit? Disable a leg actuator acts like you legged your target, disable a weapon in that area for a moment, missile ammo wont load, etc. This would definately give the ppc some uniqueness. Also considering it looks like an electrical discharge.

[Thanatos31]

the Marauder still loves PPCs with a 50% bonus on PPC speed.

[Bishop Steiner]

Phil Ambush, on 27 December 2015 - 12:24 AM, said:

the Marauder still loves PPCs with a 50% bonus on PPC speed.

That's the problem though Phil... you have to have that 40-50% velocity boost for people to use them...and even then you see a LOT more Marauders, K2s and Awesomes with LPL and ERLLs (or even ML vomit) than PPCs.

So let's make the base specs good enough to get a little more consideration, and leave room for some mechs like the MAD, WHM, AWS, WHK, etc to get quirks to keep it near said velocity.

Mind you in some cases, like the WHM, with it's lower mounts, if it's hitboxes let it brawl, maybe it could benefit a little more by heat generation than velocity (it was designed as an in fighting mech overall), but that's the joy of leaving room for quirks, to individualize the weapon/chassis synergy some.

[Ken Harkin]

Phil Ambush, on 27 December 2015 - 12:24 AM, said:

the Marauder still loves PPCs with a 50% bonus on PPC speed.

The Marauder is my favorite mech. Step one is to always rip out the ppcs. LPL is vastly superior or ERLL if you are looking for a long range fight.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ken Harkin, on 27 December 2015 - 05:20 AM, said:

The Marauder is my favorite mech. Step one is to always rip out the ppcs. LPL is vastly superior or ERLL if you are looking for a long range fight.

While I thank you for demonstrating my point, I must now excommunicate you from the roll sof Marauder owners, and make it my life's mission to hunt you down and end you in game with my PPC packing MAD.

[Bishop Steiner]

Dang it.... just noticed I hit tier 2.......

*sigh* Party's over.

...wait...it's just a sliver into it..a few losses shoudl do it.....

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 27 December 2015 - 05:53 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 December 2015 - 05:50 AM, said:

Dang it.... just noticed I hit tier 2.......

*sigh* Party's over.

...wait...it's just a sliver into it..a few losses shoudl do it.....

Now it's all fun and games. And by fun and games, I mean watching otherwise presumably intelligent pilots act like they huffed glue. Tier system is meaningless.

[AbyssalTyrant]

Its the exact same thing as it was in the other tiers.

[Strum Wealh]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 December 2015 - 05:46 AM, said:

While I thank you for demonstrating my point, I must now excommunicate you from the roll sof Marauder owners, and make it my life's mission to hunt you down and end you in game with my PPC packing MAD.

A pass might be deserved in the specific case of the MAD-5M - the stock build has no PPCs, and the quirk granted to it by PGI ("Laser Duration: -10.00%") favors laser-heavy builds.

Otherwise, I agree with your sentiment regarding the blasphemous PPC-less Marauders (and the equally-blasphemous PPC-less Warhammers we know are coming).

[Quaamik]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 December 2015 - 11:05 PM, said:

Also, where have I proposed 15 pp dmg for less heat? Oh..yeah. I didn't. 12.5 for 14 ht. Little different story. Let's stick to the facts, shall we?
.

You didnt.

I proposed a heat reduction for the PPC, a damage increase for the CERPPC and a drastic heat reduction and a damage increase for the IS ERPPC. As I said before, I don't think anything short of making them produce more damage than heat will make them viable. But I don't think that we an do that with pinpoint damage. I'd love to try on the test server, but I think it will be immediately obvious that they would be OP.

On a side note, I like the idea of them temporarily disabling systems in the area hit. That could balance them but I'm not so sure the code could be made to work.

Edited by Quaamik, 27 December 2015 - 08:23 AM.

[Clint Steel]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 17 December 2015 - 12:01 PM, said:

I can get behind these ideas.

I know I've pondered what would happen if the cERPPC was pushed up to 15 damage no splash but had it's ghost heat pushed to kicking in at 1 (or conversely lifting the IS limit to 3).

The IS PPC is salvageable on chassis with velocity quirks, so would we dial back the PPC velocity quirks in the process? I mean, as cool as it would be for the AWS-8Q to having PPCs screaming along at 2250m/s, I'd think that'd be hellacious balance.

Oh no, a scary Awesome.

[Gorgo7]

Clint Steel, on 27 December 2015 - 08:18 AM, said:

Oh no, a scary Awesome.

Oh YES! A scary Awesome! How delightful!
Imagine it!
Hoard of Newbs being obliterated by (what is rightfully called) an Awesome. They then rush to buy the new supermech...that no one has ever heard of...
Glorious!

[Kanajashi]

Some thoughts and numbers from my Mechwarrior spreadsheet:

Edited by Kanajashi, 05 January 2016 - 09:55 PM.

[Ultimax]

Kanajashi, on 05 January 2016 - 09:54 PM, said:

Some thoughts and numbers from my Mechwarrior spreadsheet:

With your numbers there would be no reason to ever use the PPC over the ER PPC.

Velocity still too low for all three.

I think your overall changes for CERPPC are a bit too generous.

Increase the pinpoint or decrease the heat, not both, for the tiny price of 0.25s CD.

Remember, it still has slot and tonnage advantages over the IS ER PPC and more damage is more damage.

[FLG 01]

I am sorry to necro this thread, but has there been any news? Now that the next patch is close, I hope we see an improvement since there is near universal agreement that something has to be done. (...even though there is minor disagreement in just how big that something should be).

Just to add my 2 Eurocent:

PPC
- heat: 9
- scaling minimum range, i.e. doing some damage below 90m.
- velocity: 1300m/s

IS ER PPC
- heat: 13
- velocity: 1400m/s

Clan ER PPC
- heat: 14
- velocity: 1400m/s
- damage: 10 plus 5 splash damage