66 replies to this topic

[Der Hesse]

The first time since the introduction of Clans i got the feeling that Clans and IS are somehow balanced. They are not the same but balanced with some unique strengths and weaknesses.

Clans have superiour speed, alphas and overall range while IS has better sustained fire and maybe survivability.

Because of that there are different kinds of gameplay for IS and Clans. In an all-out brawl IS typically dominates. In sniping and peeking Clans dominate. Also Clans are in general much faster then IS, what helps with fast skimishes, generator rushes and reactions to the enemys behaviour in general.

Since i think that mobility is the most important thing in this game i would say that Clans still have a slight advantage, but it´s an advantage not every pilot knows to make use of so it doesn´t get too noticeable in most matches.

So for the first time since i write about balance i don´t have to rage nad that´s something im really thankful for.

Now it´s time to work some more on Mech/Mech balance some more. *cough* arctic cheetah *cough*

[Russhuster]

May i ask what is causing that picture in you
Clan has superior speed ?
every IS light Robot laughs over Clan light mechs, you can get even IS mediums at 110 - 120 kph some even faster ( Example Cicada: app 140 kph)
same in the heavies and lets see the Assault mechs ? Atlas 69.5 kph after dec nerf Direwolf 48 kph
You do see superior Speed on Clan side? really?

Better Alpha strike,.. lets see An Clan Warhawk(85 ton mech) can fire 4 large pulse lasers when one builds 10 extra double heat sinks and the heat almost gives you an immediate shut down
A IS THunderbolt(65 ton mech) can do the same even firing 5 heavy pulse lasers and not geting even warm
the Wubbolt can fire 4 heavy pulsers repeatedly ,.. better Alpha capacity on Clan side ?

Ah firing 2 Clan heavy UAC or isnt wise neither as the ghost heat shuts you down

we wont speak of heavy buffs to IS to agility speed heat Armor, Structure ,.. and what you want else

that leaves absolute NO advantage on clan side right?

Ah and you re right as the only clan light that can cope with the speed of every IS light it deserves to be nerfed severely
would nt it be easier toask for a god-mode button in the IS cockpits?

but please feel free to refute what i did write, with a line of reasoning

When you say Balance is One side having about all disadvantages the other all advantages then you are right
we have achieved a perfect Balance

But to give honesty honour Clan has one advantage that be the clan XL reactor what most clan mechs can not change
neither structure or armor
Or the smaller, lighter equipment? we pay for the lighter equipment with a ridiculous puny payload on most Clan mechs
20,6 Ton Payload in a 70 ton mech or 15.5 tons in a 50 ton mech for example
given the same speed even a IS light mech is laughing at both of them ( tested with a FS9-A at 81 kph)
and an is med laser hs the same weight than the clan counterpart

So could you please explain where you see an advantage for clans ?

I do se no balance at all

Edited by Russhuster, 25 December 2015 - 05:47 AM.

[Alienized]

Russhuster, on 25 December 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

bla...

[Der Hesse]

Experience in this game is causing that picture in me.

With the Arctic Cheetah the excuse that Is has better lights is irrelevant. The Cheetah is better than anything IS ever had. Same speed as the notable IS lights. Firepower like the best IS lights. Jumpjets and even ECM. Try to find that on IS side.

Yes, IS can bring some mediums and heavies to high speeds. But only if you sacrifice a lot of firepower or are willing to risk your life with an IS XL. Clans therefore can be fast and still have an inredible weaponry nearly without those drawbacks.
Since you are mentioning the Atlas. Try to fight a Direwolf with it when you brought it to 69,5. You won´t have much fun. Besides that´s an extreme example and im talking about overall balance.

If you want single examples...show me an IS mech that can compare to the Madcat or Crow on IS side regarding combination of speed and alphastrikepower.

While we talk about alphastrikes....you seem not to understand the difference between alphastrike and sustained firepower. Yes, the IS has better sustained firepower. That´s exactly what i said in my initial thread.
By the way....your argument with the 5 large pulse laser thunderbolt not even getting warm is ********. Sorry, but i can´t say it in another way. Build one and try it.

[Russhuster]

@ Alienized
very bright one, i admire your detailed and logic line of reasoning

@ derHesse

The combination in the Cheetah is very good yes, but that doesnt say the ACH istunbeatable, just not by me as iam a low light/scout pilot,.. i lack of , lets say mental instability to perform there
A Raven 3 L could do te job as well as a Jenny number 7
Balance is reached when you have in every way a mech that is definitely better than the other?
ah i understand.

But lay a Direwolf fwith an Atlas?- no Problem, been there done that - got the shirt, just try it yourself
either D DC or boarsie you choose i do it,.. as the atlas is way more tanky and more agile than the whale it isnt that difficult to kill esp when yit get closer the vast inner sphere heat atvantake does help alotmore
the dire is to lame to follow ,..torso turning in a dire is so slow its no real match anymore

When a clan mech is on good speed the payload is puny as well just look at the Executioner or the Gargoyle
or a summoner 70 ton mech with 20 ton load anyone? or an 80 ton mech with 19,6 ton load? Clan dies sacrifice weight for speed just like the IS would have to do and 19.6 Ton Load in an heavy??? even a BJ laughs on that or a firestarter for that matters at the same speed evebn that has more load you see thats not a single example

A mech that can battle a Timbie
The Marauder or almost any Wubbolt can easyly cope with a Timbie, need more examples?
Ofc there will be times the TBR wins as well or do you want a mech that has a 100% ratio you wint find any in any any pairing
For the Crow
A Hunchie 4P for example would do it

A s for the Wubbolt and 5 large pulsers: DONE that i tend to do te test BEVORE i write anything, so go ahead try it yourself
TDR 9SE with 3-4 extra double heat sinks (4 you need to go very low in legs armor for so 3 heatsinks i would recommend)
bevore youre talking nonsense

Sachu erscht un babbel dann weisch?

Edited by Russhuster, 25 December 2015 - 07:06 AM.

[Alienized]

@ russhuster YOU are talking about reasonable logic using ONE of TWO IS mechs that can stand up to clanmechs vs the worst loadout for a warhawk?

surely disqualified yourself. all i see is a desperate try of a energyboater crying that clans are not OP as they used to be.

you fail so hard in having a neutral point of view at this game that it hurts to read or even reply to you.

[Der Hesse]

Your suggested build:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b24b2608b62d8e6

Are you serious that this shall be viable build that can outperform a 4 C large pulselaser Warhawk (why would you drive that anyways)?

49.8 kph max, deadly IS XL engine and cooling efficiency of 24%, ghost heat not included.

Seems to be some kind of logic only a bavarian can understand.

[Russhuster]

higher engine, lower leg armor, lower armored shield arm 10-15 makes you carry a 275 xl with a speed of 68.5 no?
and youre right ghost heat not included, do you get any when firing that lasers in this IS Mech???
so what ghost heat? compared to what one gets in the whk its almost not noticeable
always in mind 5 !! against 4 on clan side
so i would call that viable

and seeing that a IS 65 ton mech can do what a clan 85 ton mech is needed for i call disadvantage on Clan side dont you ?
because in an Clan 65 Ton Mech ( Hellbringer ) you can not fit 5 lagre pulse lasers even with absolutely NO extra heatsink and ZERO leg armor as well as ZERO shieldarm AR if you strip the mech almost comletely of AR you get 5 in but try to fire these .-- go ahead

Still youre not proving where you see ANY Advantages on clan side as you postet ion your initial lines of Thesis.

Edited by Russhuster, 25 December 2015 - 08:02 AM.

[Gunner Kisiel]

I think Mech balance is as close as I've seen it. With the exception of a few over-quirked IS mechs and under-quirked Clan Mechs. Weapon quirks on some IS mechs need to be toned down BJ 1X for example. Quirks need to be added to the worst/least used clan mechs Nova,S-cat, gargoyle. Give us a reason not to play Stormcrow and Timberwolf online.

IS and clan SRMS are in a good place right now.

PPCs for both sides need serious attention. A weapon system should not require quirks to be used. And even with quirks they still usually aren't good.

[Russhuster]

I think with the quirk buckets like Wubbolts or Wubbadins or the little Atlas aka Blackjack Balance is down the sink seriously


iam with you in the srm matter these are quite okay,.. but as long as the C-PPC bug is not fixed( Firing though the target with no damage) you wiont see PPC used much

.. you can add Mist Lynx the Ferret Kitfox Executioner and a serious need for agility quirks for the Whale to that list as well as for some of the IIC s that need considerated and inteligent quirks as well to be viable

@ Alienized, unfortuately your words miss miles to the left side
i do prefer guns am forced to rockets and lasers in some clan builds becuse of the very small load they have
and the laserboats you may find just a tad to the IS side, been in CW lately? who hat the Range laser boats there?
a llittle tip,.. Clan has enormous ghost heat penalty
The warhawk and Bolt loadout was a mixed heat management and possible loadout Ghost heat example
to show in a graphic way the huge advantage on IS side
that was not that difficult to realize

Nothing is preventinmg you from proving iam wrong - please do
i even asked to be refuted but i do see just a ranting and whining, mixed with accuses but neither logic or a line of reasoning

In a discussion one puts up a thesis

DerHesse did, another one tryes to refute that, an puts up a counterthesis
Thats what i did, along with consolidation of my thesis with some examples

Edited by Russhuster, 25 December 2015 - 08:35 AM.

[Alienized]

l3l did you even ever play IS? you think that PPC only shoot through enemies on clan side?
i tell you it happens on IS side as well so never put such arguments up ever again.

now where does the executioner need ANY quirks at all?
i ask myself when i will stop facepalming in here.

agility quirks for the most powerful mech in the entire battletech universe?
what?
what you ask and wish for are more imbalances to clans so can slice through IS even faster.

[Russhuster]

i have mechs both sides and playedin CW both sides you as well=?

the PPC speed quirks on IS side seem to avoid that bug there quite well or at least my IS Robots are luckier than the Clan Bots
The Executioner doesnt need quirks, appearantly quirks is all IS can think of but its puny payload is ridiculous
or ar least let it get rid of the fix mountet jump jets that is useless weight more general spoken many Clan mechs would benefit from at least being able to change endo or ferro or geting rid of fixmounted jumpjets but not even that is an option
so much for clan omnimechs a the current state IS is Mechs are closer to an Omnimech than Clan

I will put up reasonable theses and as we both live in a democratic system you may refute the tesis but you may not forbid free speach or censorize me in that matters,.. besides your attempt delivering a stange light to your attitude

To the Whale
the Dire was the slowest and most unagile mech bevore the dec Nerfbat flew
Have you played one in the recent time? a sitting Duck is nothing compared to that

I would count an atlas way more dangerous along with a stiff line of other mechs
Have you asked yourself why you dont see more Dires whilst these are so op?

RIGHT the Dire is the most dangerous Mech in the BATTLETECH universe - unfortunately with all the quirks and nerfs etc MWO has little to almost nothing to do with Battletech anymore .. and i do regret that very dearly

Just play a direwhale, then we talk again

Edited by Russhuster, 25 December 2015 - 08:55 AM.

[Alienized]

Russhuster, on 25 December 2015 - 08:51 AM, said:

.... appearantly quirks is all IS can think of....

why even argue with a guy that doesnt even get WHY there are quirks on IS side.

im outta here. this is going to awkward places with a guy that has no clue about balance after all.

[Russhuster]

especially when you have not even a single point there,..
forseeable,.. but nevertheless dissappointing

good luck to you

[Alienized]

its true, i rather have no point at all than beeing so much biased towards clans like you are.
quite sad that everything happening ingame proves that clans are so much better than IS atm apart from maybe 4 chassis that got heavily overquirked.

[Russhuster]

i do play both,.. maybe its this what makes me realize that something goes extremely wrong
Biased? maybe towards Battletech and Lore and as a result from that attitude you may say i am not happy with what the clans become.
But you are right so far that i do like playing Clan wolf everybody has its preferances but this doesnt make me blind on the other eye

besides 4 ( i d tend to say 7 ) overquirked Chassis do not destroy Balance badly in your opinion?

We may fight against each other in a game
but we do play this game together

Edited by Russhuster, 25 December 2015 - 09:35 AM.

[Alienized]

Russhuster, on 25 December 2015 - 09:33 AM, said:

i do play both,.. maybe its this what makes me realize that something goes extremely wrong
Biased? maybe towards Battletech and Lore and as a result from that attitude you may say i am not happy with what the clans become.
But you are right so far that i do like playing Clan wolf everybody has its preferances but this doesnt make me blind on the other eye

besides 4 ( i d tend to say 7 ) overquirked Chassis do not destroy Balance badly in your opinion?

We may fight against each other in a game
but we do play this game together

oh i play clans alot. with bad clanmechs, good clanmechs, mixed loadouts, meta loadouts, funloadouts.
in every little thing clans are better except ac's.

better speed, better survivability, alot more range (especially on pulse lasers), smal lasers/ small pulse lasers viable on every class, extreme low weight for missiles, in many things more mobile, alot more alpha,
useful ECM mechs for CW that can still put a ecm bubble on the team etc

Edited by Alienized, 25 December 2015 - 09:53 AM.

[Russhuster]

You are right, there are alot of bad Clan mechs i do play those too ,.. just not in CW One is forced to play meta and even if ts dangerous for a Clanner laservomit there there IS no alternative- or?

Better Speed? I tend to disagree IS mechs CAN be brought to higher speeed than Clan Mechs CANT they stick exept the IIC to the engine they have so a 48 kph Dire will never be faster but every IS mech outruns the leaden duck with ease
OFC you do need a larger engine therefore sacrifice tonnage for speed but simply look at the Tonnage and free load capacity
Every Clan mech has compared to IS a ridiculous small payload. so no advantage in Speed at all en contraire i would say
out of the simple fact IS CAN go faster, the decision is with the player Clan CANT.

Better Survivability? more mobility? pardon me
with all the structure additional AR and agility quirks with imultanuously nerfing Clan in agility -20%
the survivabilzy Advantage is at the IS side , but please What gives more survivabuility to a clan mech the fact that its now moving/turning slower? Most IS mechs got Massive movement and agility quirks Clans got just the Nerf to the Face

An Example: Highlander Not the IS Quirkgod no but even that mech got
-20% agility(Skilltree) PLUS 55% acc and decc Quirk 35% turn Rate +10 torso turn angle +15% torso twist quirk +massive AR quirks (+19 AR in the Arms ) + massive structure quirks up to additional 29 structure depending on the section)
so i would say the agility on Is was even after the Nerf higher than bevore on Clan side ? there was just the Nerf right?

Why do you think even a Blackjack has survival capacity of an Atlas now
This is a bit provocative spoken but i think you see my point

more range?
with the god-mode Quirks the Range advantage is with IS and people play meta and according to the quirks at least in CW i do see this almost only
Considering unquirked pure weapon range true there the Advantage is at Clanside but in an quirked mech this advantage is on IS side or egalized at the least

The missle weight is lower but the missle itself is a great disadvantage whilst IS fires a pulk of rockets in one shot Clan fires a stream A Clan Rocket mech has to expose way longer than the IS

But iam with you when you should put up the thesis the clan SSrM is a light advantage for Clan

ecm are on the same rating Clan and is are at 90 m afaik so no advantage there,.. and where is my ecm-Direwolf? *rant and howl*

would you please explain where and what makes you believe Clan has advantages there

Edited by Russhuster, 25 December 2015 - 10:57 AM.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Alienized, on 25 December 2015 - 08:29 AM, said:

l3l did you even ever play IS? you think that PPC only shoot through enemies on clan side?
i tell you it happens on IS side as well so never put such arguments up ever again.

now where does the executioner need ANY quirks at all?
i ask myself when i will stop facepalming in here.

agility quirks for the most powerful mech in the entire battletech universe?
what?
what you ask and wish for are more imbalances to clans so can slice through IS even faster.

Have you tried an Executioner? Those are really bad mechs... really bad... In my opinion, if you go against an Executioner, youre lucky, you only need a bit of technique there, those are so easy to kill. Imagine it as a bigger gargoyle, it sucks bad, but has only a litle more armor, and poor firepower for a mech its size. Compare it to a Banshee!!! Do i need to say more?

Anyway, you seem way to noob to actually say anything regarding clan mechs... "you know nothing john snow..."

[Alienized]

Spadejack, on 25 December 2015 - 10:49 AM, said:

Have you tried an Executioner? Those are really bad mechs... really bad... In my opinion, if you go against an Executioner, youre lucky, you only need a bit of technique there, those are so easy to kill. Imagine it as a bigger gargoyle, it sucks bad, but has only a litle more armor, and poor firepower for a mech its size. Compare it to a Banshee!!! Do i need to say more?

Anyway, you seem way to noob to actually say anything regarding clan mechs... "you know nothing john snow..."

hm bad mech.... if its that bad... how can a *bad player* like me get the ace of spades title with a executioner.... propably playing it right.
a banshee? l3l a barn door that requires XL and is easy to take out. gargles is underestimated because its a brawl mech (like the executioner, it just requires too much skill and balls to play it right, sorry for those who cant.)


if you dont understand how a mech works then you should not talk about the mech. as you just done.

oh and im such noob. i know myself. lel.