120 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

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Reflective armor would shift the meta favorably.

no it wouldnt. all it would do is kill energy weapons and reign in ballistic dominance.

thats not a favorable shift in the meta.

a favorable shift in the meta is one where all weapons are equally useable.


Im not entirely against adding new defensive tech. But can we at least get proper weapon balance first? the last thing we need is the already unbalanced weapons getting even more screwed up by PGI adding more unbalanced defensive techs like ECM.

ECM still hasnt been balanced either.... ECM is the poster child for why defensive techs that hard counter specific weapons are a bad idea. I also firmly believe that any defensive techs added should only be soft counters. Hard counters like reflective armor simply have no place in the game.

Edited by Khobai, 26 December 2015 - 08:31 PM.

[TheArisen]

Khobai, on 26 December 2015 - 08:24 PM, said:

no it wouldnt. all it would do is kill energy weapons and reign in ballistic dominance.

thats not a favorable shift in the meta.

a favorable shift in the meta is one where all weapons are equally useable.


Im not entirely against adding new defensive tech. But can we at least get proper weapon balance first? the last thing we need is the already unbalanced weapons getting even more screwed up by PGI adding more unbalanced defensive techs like ECM.

ECM still hasnt been balanced either.... ECM is the poster child for why defensive techs that hard counter specific weapons are a bad idea. I also firmly believe that any defensive techs added should only be soft counters. Hard counters like reflective armor simply have no place in the game.

Right, that's why things like reflective armor would need to be reeled in a bit. Or have a big enough downside that it wouldn't be OP, etc.

[Khobai]

IMO it makes far more sense to balance laser vomit by rebalancing lasers. Rather than adding equipment like reflective armor which youre forced to use in order for laser vomit to be balanced. That's called a bandaid, its a quick/lazy fix, that ignores the underlying problem, while creating entirely new problems in its wake. Its no different from other bandaid mechanics like ghost heat.

Like I already mentioned ECM is proof why equipment-based hard counters are a bad route to go. The more logical path is to balance weapons first before even considering adding defensive techs to the game. Core weapon balance is NOT in an especially good place right now. And certainly not even close to good enough to consider adding new equipment to the game.

Get lasers into a balanced state first. Then decide if the game still needs reflective armor. Because theres a good chance it wont even be needed if proper weapon balance is achieved.

Edited by Khobai, 27 December 2015 - 10:27 AM.

[TheArisen]

Khobai, on 27 December 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

IMO it makes far more sense to balance laser vomit by rebalancing lasers. Rather than adding equipment like reflective armor which youre forced to use in order for laser vomit to be balanced. That's called a bandaid, its a quick/lazy fix, that ignores the underlying problem, while creating entirely new problems in its wake. Its no different from other bandaid mechanics like ghost heat.

Like I already mentioned ECM is proof why equipment-based hard counters are a bad route to go. The more logical path is to balance weapons first before even considering adding defensive techs to the game. Core weapon balance is NOT in an especially good place right now. And certainly not even close to good enough to consider adding new equipment to the game.

Get lasers into a balanced state first. Then decide if the game still needs reflective armor. Because theres a good chance it wont even be needed if proper weapon balance is achieved.

It's not completely about needing these to balance the game, it's also about improving build variety. I'd also prefer these techs be implemented in "watered down" versions, generally speaking. So no hard counters, just soft ones.

[J0anna]

First off I feel TTK is fine atm, if anything it's a bit too long.

Advancing the timeline, is wrought with other problems i.e. the introduction of tier 2 IS weapons and (eventually) tier 3 weapons. Problem is PGI will have to nerf them VERY heavily or they will completely overpower the game. For example a RAC 5, can shoot up to 6xAC 5 rounds at once (with a chance to jam)imagine 3 of them on an IM, why would you ever use an AC 5 again? This is the can of worms that PGI opened, by trying to keep tier 1 weapons competitive, you have to heavily nerf tier 2 (i.e. clan and later IS) weapons. The net effect is that there can't be the advances that the timeline brings. The natural balance mechanisms in TT (to hit roll (which we could approximate in game by eliminating pin point convergence), capped heat scale limiting alpha's) have been removed. Good luck figuring it all out PGI, you're going to need it.....

[LordBraxton]

Moenrg, on 27 December 2015 - 02:41 PM, said:

First off I feel TTK is fine atm, if anything it's a bit too long.

this is why MWO has such an identity crisis

How can well meaning fans want completely different things?
We all got opinions, and mine is that yours is terrible, no offense.

Right now the TTK is so quick, weve been stuck with tank matches for almost 2 years. I even preferred poptart wars GREATLY to the peek n poke 2 second TTK we have had for ages now. Atleast fights lasted more than 3 seconds when I was hopping around in my CTF3D for 400 matches in a row.

I suggest you try WoT or Warthunder, for all of the 1hit-KO hull-down-sniping you can stomach!

[Scratx]

TheArisen, on 25 December 2015 - 03:16 PM, said:

More than a few people talk about TTK being too low. Instead of nerfs, etc. I think it'd be worth introducing defensive technology. Obviously, some of these would need to be modified to be implemented in MWO but they'd make things more interesting.

I know these aren't all in timeline but for the sake of gameplay, Pgi should move up/bend the timeline.

1. Armored Components, extra internal on a single weapon/equipment http://www.sarna.net...ored_Components

Just about useless.

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2. Modular Armor, extra armor on an individual section. http://www.sarna.net...i/Modular_Armor

Interesting but would likely need a lot of 3D modeling work to build the meshes for modular armor plating on every mech. Unless PGI wants to commit to that much work, it ain't gonna happen.

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3. Reflective Armor, anti energy weapon armor. http://www.sarna.net...eflective_Armor

Perfectly viable and would be an excellent addition to give us players more options to build mechs as. Also makes laser vomit/energy boating a riskier proposition because encountering an adversary with energy reflective armor put you at a disadvantage.

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4. Reactive Armor, anti ballistic weapon armor. http://www.sarna.net.../Reactive_Armor

Similar to above, just for ballistics/missiles. A good reason to be wary of boating weapons.

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5. Hardened Armor, extra heavy armor, restricts movement. http://www.sarna.net.../Hardened_Armor

Another good addition. Sacrifice tonnage and mobility in order to get more overall protection than you can get with standard or ferro-fibrous armor. It's not a gimmie to every player because it really HURTS your weapons payload to bulk up your armor to the max.

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6. Heavy Ferro, heavier ferro.
http://www.sarna.net...o-Fibrous_Armor

More slots for lighter armor. Eh, why not. I don't see anybody using it, though, too many slots consumed.

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7. Light Ferro, lighter ferro (IS attempt to recreate clan FF). http://www.sarna.net...o-Fibrous_Armor

This, OTOH, can fit in a lot of mechs for a bit of a tonnage boost.

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8. Blue Shield Dampener, anti ppc shield, could be an anti energy shield you can activate for a limited time.
http://www.sarna.net...le_Field_Damper

My, my. Interesting piece of kit, probably not very likely to get much use though. PPCs aren't the rage, though they do get significant use. A good way of making sure if PPCs start getting boated a lot they can be countered, though!

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9. Laser AMS, it's ams but with lasers. No ammo needs but increases heat. http://www.sarna.net...-Missile_System

Would need players to be very much aware of how to turn on and off in order to control their heat, or just make sure it won't activate if heat is above a certain threshold in order to avoid overheating. It's a nice thing to have otherwise.

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My questions for everyone are, how much of an effect would adding defensive tech. have? And how should these technologies be implemented in MWO?

Most techs can be added in a straighforward manner, and I can't think of any adverse balance changes they'd introduce. They mainly add risk to boating singular type of weapons or give options to sacrifice firepower/mobility for additional protection.

Armored components don't really add anything much to the game, though. Sure, if you really WANT to armor up that AC20... but at the cost? ewww... That feature is best used in TT to deal with cockpits, engines and gyros. You know, the stuff that kills the mech if critted. I... can't think of much else being worth the tonnage sacrifice to add additional protection to. Yeah, AC20 for 19 tons, no thanks.

The big problem however is that a timeline advancement is required for adding all of those items, pretty much. That also means adding more weapons and perhaps other equipments. Can't really look at these techs in isolation.

Still, if we do, I think I'm mostly spot on. Mechanical stand-point, there's no real reason NOT to add them, they're not in any way overpowered.

[Scratx]

Khobai, on 26 December 2015 - 08:24 PM, said:

no it wouldnt. all it would do is kill energy weapons and reign in ballistic dominance.

thats not a favorable shift in the meta.

a favorable shift in the meta is one where all weapons are equally useable.


Im not entirely against adding new defensive tech. But can we at least get proper weapon balance first? the last thing we need is the already unbalanced weapons getting even more screwed up by PGI adding more unbalanced defensive techs like ECM.

ECM still hasnt been balanced either.... ECM is the poster child for why defensive techs that hard counter specific weapons are a bad idea. I also firmly believe that any defensive techs added should only be soft counters. Hard counters like reflective armor simply have no place in the game.

Reflective isn't a hard counter, nor is reactive. They're more effective per armor point against their intended weapon types but cost slots (10 or 14 respectively) and weight as much as standard armor.

That's assuming PGI doesn't modify them further, since the weakness of reflective is completely inapplicable in MWO. On the other hand, if PGI also strips out the weakness in reactive (the chance of blowing up) then it evens out.

And... well, I think most people won't mind losing some tonnage on light mechs in order to slap one of those two armor types... you know, depending on whether they think lasers or SSRMs are their biggest concern. And the heavy and assault mechs generally don't have slots for them anyway, unless endo-steel is passed upon.

I agree that weapon balance still needs work, though. But, well, I don't think that precludes adding alternative defensive technologies. In a way, the mere threat that somebody may be using a specialist armor type can be an effective deterrent against boating. Do you really want to laser-vomit if there's very good odds the guys you're shooting at have reflective? Or dakka-vomit instead and welp, that's reactive armor over there, goddammit.

I dunno, I can't see how giving more, balanced options can screw us over.

[Kraftwerkedup]

Woah how did I miss this thread.

Ok first of all, the armor thing doesnt work well in the MP environment like this. MW4 had it. It was basically just gambling. Ultimately you always take FF because its the best.

You take reflective, you round a corner into Dakka. You take reactive, a Grasshopper Wub insta cores you.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Thats not the Boardgame ..in the BG ,a Pilot can nothing aiming a Single Hitzone (Cockpit,Arms) by a still standing Battlemech in 30m , can not aim of a with 130kmh Running Warmachine with a Height of 8-12m...

[Novakaine]

POwer ups next?
No thanks.

[Kjudoon]

Then they need new engineers. I see it work in similar games with as many guns that use it successfully.

[Khobai]

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Reflective isn't a hard counter, nor is reactive. They're more effective per armor point against their intended weapon types but cost slots (10 or 14 respectively) and weight as much as standard armor.

-50% damage from energy weapons is absolutely a hard counter.

im sorry but that would just be stupid to add to the game.

[Kjudoon]

Why? We effectively have this kind of defense against missiles. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander if we are not going to address the real issue of concentrated damage application for some "preferred" weapons.

[Khobai]

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Why? We effectively have this kind of defense against missiles

And missiles are crap weapons that no one uses. case in point. defensive techs are in large part why people dont use missiles.

and you want to add more defensive techs to curbstomp all weapons except ballistic weapons. might as well just make it ballistic warrior online.

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You take reflective, you round a corner into Dakka. You take reactive, a Grasshopper Wub insta cores you.

except there is no reason to take reactive armor. ever. missiles already arnt a threat in this game. and reactive armor only protects against missiles not ballistic weapons. reflective armor is the only choice anyone would ever take. Since missiles weapons suck, and everyone would take reflective armor, ballistic weapons would become the new dominant meta.

But then theres also the fact that omnimechs would get massively screwed by not being able to change armor types. Omnimechs would become outright inferior to Battlemechs at that point due to locked equipment.

Adding hard counter defensive tech would completely ruin the game in the same way ECM/AMS has ruined missiles. Its definitely NOT the kindve defensive tech we need.


What we need is CLEVER defensive tech like ghost signature for ECM that generates fake sensor signatures to spoof enemies. We need defensive techs that promote intelligent play, sensor warfare, and scouting. We dont need defensive tech that leads to players being even dumber than before, like reflective armor...

And what we need is better weapon balance so energy, missile, and ballistic weapons all have their own equally useful niches in the game. Last thing we need is weapons getting hard countered so badly that the game turns into rock paper scissors where the game is randomly determined by equipment choice and what team is most vulnerable to the other teams weapons. That would be HORRIBLE.

Edited by Khobai, 28 December 2015 - 04:16 AM.

[TheArisen]

Khobai, on 28 December 2015 - 03:51 AM, said:

Alright, you don't like reflective armor with TT stats. What if it was implemented in a watered down version? Instead of getting buffed like ECM was.

The way to implement these in MWO is to modify them while maintaining the idea behind them. Some of these ideas would actually need to be buffed. As long as they don't become hard counters I think they'd add depth to the game. Obviously, these techs need to be worth considering but not an obvious choice.

[Kjudoon]

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And missiles are crap weapons that no one uses.

Blatantly false statement.

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case in point. defensive techs are in large part why people dont use missiles.

So, without defensive nerfs, LRMS are the superior weapon. See how that works there? This fuzzy global warming math doesn't work. You can't bias the data for a desired outcome and then claim it's accurate.

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and you want to add more defensive techs to curbstomp all weapons except ballistic weapons. might as well just make it ballistic warrior online.

Nope. They need defensive nerfs too if we're going to play this 'defensive tech' game. I'd love to see AMS shoot up AC rounds and other anti-ballistic tech. Whatever was proposed by the OP. If you go down this road you need to go down it for EVERY weapon. Playing favorites is unethical and bad game design. Otherwise all you do is shift the meta to that unaffected weapon.

People don't bring missiles. (a lie but let's look at why they aren't as effective)

- Damage spread

- Numerous, and cheap counters

- Nerfed functionality
The same way PPCs and Gauss got nerfed, LRMs have been worse many factors more. Easy solutions to this are there, but there are biased (by corrupt personal benefit or unenlightened self interest) groups who are strongly opposed to even playing fields.

1. Eliminate perfect convergence for all grouped weapons. Solves TTK overnight as huge alphas can no longer reliably hit the same component for easy kills. Those who oppose it are the same ones profiteering from it rendering their argument corrupt and invalid. Those who pretend it's an engineering problem need to understand this is not a dynamic convergence like previously done. The root problem is this perfect DF convergence and it has harmed this game severely for the benefit of a few 'l33ts' who want to pretend this garbage tactic is 'skill'.

2. Fix the heat scale and cause diminished capacity for high heats including ammo explosions and worse aim, slower movement, torso twist, the lot.

3. No single weapon counters. If targeting computers for missiles are blocked by ECM for LRMs, then they are blocked for DF weapons, giving them JJ jitter or refuse to fire or other aiming problems. That is one example.

4. Fix broken AMS so it either cannot shoot through solid objects, does damage to friendlies that it shoots through or only works on missiles aimed at the mech they are mounted on.

This game needs more unreliability and simulation and far less Arena shooter esport craptacular features. You want that, find a real FPS and go play that instead.

[pbiggz]

Defensive tech is a great idea but if its implemented as is it would shatter the non balance we have.

Khobai, on 28 December 2015 - 02:06 AM, said:

-50% damage from energy weapons is absolutely a hard counter.

im sorry but that would just be stupid to add to the game.

Add reflective AND reactive armors. You pick what you want to counter and pay the price if you choose poorly.

[TheArisen]

Maybe Modular armor is the best choice. Forget the change to mech models & just add a new color to the readout. A part of a mech that has modular armor could be blue to denote it's increased armor count.

Perhaps armored components could affect all equipment in a section it's placed in if it keeps it's weight.

Hardened armor also avoids the hard counters problem.

pbiggz, on 28 December 2015 - 10:08 AM, said:

Defensive tech is a great idea but if its implemented as is it would shatter the non balance we have.



Add reflective AND reactive armors. You pick what you want to counter and pay the price if you choose poorly.

Haha, I've stated a few times that these techs would need to be implemented in a modified state.

[Kjudoon]

I still say first fix the root problem. THEN look at defensive lore based improvements.