137 replies to this topic

[C E Dwyer]

Yeah get a room you two, some lay preacher is ready and waiting by the Casino in L.A, under an arch with bells...yes bells hanging from it

[dario03]

Dimento Graven, on 28 December 2015 - 01:51 AM, said:

I've seen a dual gauss Shadowcat in the game, I didn't think they were a viable build, apparently some moron just wanted to run around with dual gauss shadow cat doing nothing, probably just for the LOLs, or he was just that drunk, who knows.

How did that work out for him?

[Evan20k]

[Mcgral18]

Dimento Graven, on 28 December 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

obviously you and I can begin ignoring each other.

That much is true.

You're too thick to even test what you're crying about? You'd see the truth in that case, and stop lying.
MWO doesn't have Engine Crits. It has Engine Health (like Actuators having 10HP, but destruction does absolutely nothing, just like the engine).


You think I'd give you my address? You sound like a loon, unable to understand the most basic of principles, and not even willing to spend 5 minutes testing his own theories, which are complete ********?

Please. Your kind ruin this game.

[Dawnstealer]

ExplicitContent, on 27 December 2015 - 06:51 AM, said:

We had a 4 man in the group that did a good job with coordination, so there was an element of teamwork present that I do believe played some role in the victory.

Yeah, that's it, all right.

1) You were playing against PUGs

2) It sure looks like they had ZERO prebuilts on their team

3) THE MOST ORGANIZED TEAM WINS. Period.

Can we just roll all these "IS OP!/CLAN OP!" threads into one big whine-thread?

[spectralthundr]

Mcgral18, on 28 December 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:

No, that's not the reason for calling the SadCat Trash Tier. It's Trash Tier because MASC is worthless, it has not terrible but not great hitboxes, MGs are worthless, and it had 3 useful hardpoints, and not enough tonnage to make full use of them. Can't mount enough heatsinks for large weapons (because tonnage) but can't mount small weapons+Heatsinks because only 3 hardpoints. That's just an example I have handy...also shows how terrible SRMs are. I was jumping around 9 SRM4s with a Gauss+PPC, and won. None of us were fresh, but no one started cored either (I did that to them).

It's a 45 ton mech with decent speed, so so hitboxes and excellent mobility, it's not a brawler, it's better as a highly mobile recon/support medium and it excels in that role. I get it, the comp folks think any mech that can't mount lots of lasers, or lasers and gauss and can face tank assaults = bad mech. Is it the best medium in the game? Nope, not by a long shot but it's hardly a fail mech in the right hands in the right role.

[Tarogato]

Jman5, on 27 December 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

Nearly 1/3 of all Clan mechs have monster hitpoint quirks (+75-140). Everyone talks about IS quirks, but Clans get a sizable number of mega-quirked mechs. It makes talking about IS vs Clan balance difficult for me because you have such a major caveat.

I went through Clan mechs and here is what they can have in the major hitpoint quirk department. Keep in mind many of these mechs also have modest weapon and agility quirks, but I'll leave that for another discussion.

• Mist Lynx(25): +92 hitpoint quirks
  
• Kit Fox(30): +76 hitpoint quirks
  
• Adder (35): +76 hitpoint quirks
  
• Ice Ferret(45): +96 hitpoint quirks
  
• Nova(50): +140 hitpoint quirks
  
• Summoner(70): +89 hitpoint quirks
  
• Gargoyle(80): +110 hitpoint quirks
  
• Warhawk (85): +101 hitpoint quirks

Clans have choices if you're looking for beefy Clan mechs. If people refuse to use them because they aren't the perfect storm of upgrades and engines that's their prerogative. Personally, I've used some of these to great effect in CW.

You're making this up artificially and it's completely wrong.

For instance, this Gargoyle gets +7 RA, +7 LA, +17 LT, +17 RT, +8 LL, +8 RL. That's 64 in hitpoint quirks (yes, that's including the beefiest ST and leg pods, not reflected in the smurfy link). In order to get +110 hitpoint quirks you need to use exactly these omnipods:

CT +8: GAR-B (no hardpoints)
Head +0: any
LA +26: GAR-Prime (1b 1m) or GAR-B (2m) or GAR-C (1b)
RA +26: GAR-Prime (1b) or GAR-B (1b)
LT +17: GAR-C (no hardpoints)
RT +17: GAR-C (no hardpoints)
LL +8: GAR-A (no movement quirks)
RL +8: GAR-A (no movement quirks)

That a total of 110 extra hitpoints, but look at the hardpoints! 2 ballistic and 1 missile or 1 ballistic and 2 missile?? It's not viable. I could show the same with the other chassis' you listed, but I won't bother, because it'll probably be the same story.

[Tarogato]

Dimento Graven, on 28 December 2015 - 01:12 AM, said:

I totally admit to not having a lot of experience in dueling LPLs in WVR's vs. SCR's.

If you meant the WVR-6K, I think the fact that you have to load all the lasers into the right arm, and if you're maintaining standard engine, your maximum speed is 79.5 (pre-speed tweak) and heat efficiency of 20% vs. the SCR-PRIME modified to have 2 LRG pulse in one arm, and one in the other, with a speed of 97.2 (pre-tweak) and cooling efficiency of 57%, puts the duel in the Clanner's favor.

It seems like all the Clanner has to do is maintain his superior mobility shoot off the right arm, and 6K in this scenario is over and done with.

Or is there a particular build with the WVR, not using XL's, that allows the WVR the same survivability that the Clan 'mech has by default?

I am curious, I really am interested in the build you're using to 'abuse' the LPL's.

Nobody runs STD in a Wolverine except for the -7K when it goes full SRM6+A brawler. Other than that one exception, everybody runs XL in Wolverine.

At first I was going to say "do you even play clan mechs?" because you seem to not understand them. But now the better question would be "do you even play IS mechs?" because you don't seem to understand them either. You think STD is so important on IS mechs across all your posts in this thread? ... Do you never torso twist? Do you have no clue how to spread damage? Do you enjoy propping your mechs up in front of entire clan firing lines and just leaving your survivability up to Kerensky's children instead of actually positioning yourself properly?

Though, I'll admit, talking about Wolverines is a bit moot because in CW the "all eggs in one basket" arm is a huge liability that's not worth risking. You usually lose the arm long before the XL ever matters. The Enforcer is a better laservomit mech for CW, and the Shadowhawk is another option, and the Blackjack is even better for LPL-vomit.

[Dimento Graven]

Tarogato, on 28 December 2015 - 02:09 PM, said:

Nobody runs STD in a Wolverine except for the -7K when it goes full SRM6+A brawler. Other than that one exception, everybody runs XL in Wolverine.

At first I was going to say "do you even play clan mechs?" because you seem to not understand them. But now the better question would be "do you even play IS mechs?" because you don't seem to understand them either. You think STD is so important on IS mechs across all your posts in this thread? ... Do you never torso twist? Do you have no clue how to spread damage? Do you enjoy propping your mechs up in front of entire clan firing lines and just leaving your survivability up to Kerensky's children instead of actually positioning yourself properly?

Though, I'll admit, talking about Wolverines is a bit moot because in CW the "all eggs in one basket" arm is a huge liability that's not worth risking. You usually lose the arm long before the XL ever matters. The Enforcer is a better laservomit mech for CW, and the Shadowhawk is another option, and the Blackjack is even better for LPL-vomit.

Nobody plays with a standard in a Wolverine? Really? So an ST loss ends the game for those players.

Beyond that I'm glad to know that YOU are the appointed spokesman for the thousands of players out there with Wolverines... When's the next Wolverine union meeting, I'd like to show up...

<sigh>

Regardless of how much torso twisting you do, one ST loss means death with an IS XL.

With a Clan XL, torso twisting+survivable ST loss, typically equals more durability.

These are facts. They are not arguable.

BUT... per the norm, Clanners (and their IS alts) pretend that IS 'mechs are the only ones able to torso twist, are the only ones expected to 'position correctly', because it suits their own sensibilities as to why every facet of every Clan 'mech should ABSOLUTELY UNQUESTIONABLY be superior to everything IS. If Clan light and medium 'mechs aren't able to face tank an IS assault, why it must be a 'trash 'mech' and IS must be OP...

<sigh>

Beginning to get bored explaining the obvious repeatedly...

[Jman5]

Tarogato, on 28 December 2015 - 01:04 PM, said:

You're making this up artificially and it's completely wrong.

For instance, this Gargoyle gets +7 RA, +7 LA, +17 LT, +17 RT, +8 LL, +8 RL. That's 64 in hitpoint quirks (yes, that's including the beefiest ST and leg pods, not reflected in the smurfy link). In order to get +110 hitpoint quirks you need to use exactly these omnipods:

CT +8: GAR-B (no hardpoints)
Head +0: any
LA +26: GAR-Prime (1b 1m) or GAR-B (2m) or GAR-C (1b)
RA +26: GAR-Prime (1b) or GAR-B (1b)
LT +17: GAR-C (no hardpoints)
RT +17: GAR-C (no hardpoints)
LL +8: GAR-A (no movement quirks)
RL +8: GAR-A (no movement quirks)

That a total of 110 extra hitpoints, but look at the hardpoints! 2 ballistic and 1 missile or 1 ballistic and 2 missile?? It's not viable. I could show the same with the other chassis' you listed, but I won't bother, because it'll probably be the same story.

I'm showing potential because the omnipod system is all over the place depending on what sort of builds you want to make. It's why I said "here is what they can have". Not here is how many hitpoints some random gargoyle build that you may or may not think is good has. Here is how many hitpoints some other random gargoyle build that you may or may not think is good has. It would never end for me because there are so many different ways to arrange omnipods. If you don't think a particular omnipod is worth +10 or whatever hitpoints it has over another with a different set of hardpoints fine by me. But you can often get decent numbers if you choose carefully.

As for your worry about hardpoints, I wouldn't. If you're using ballistics, you don't need 12 hardpoints. One or two ballistics is plenty. I only use 3 hardpoints on my warhawk-A and it does just fine. If all you want to run are a billion small lasers, then by all means you can swap the omnipods around and take the hitpoint quirk hits. But that's not the only way to do well in a mech.

Perhaps if you want to clarify for everyone, you could go through and create the lowest hitpoints possible and together we could come up with the hitpoint quirk spectrum for each of these mechs.

Edited by Jman5, 28 December 2015 - 02:35 PM.

[Tarogato]

Dimento Graven, on 28 December 2015 - 01:51 AM, said:

I've seen a dual gauss Shadowcat in the game, I didn't think they were a viable build, apparently some moron just wanted to run around with dual gauss shadow cat doing nothing, probably just for the LOLs, or he was just that drunk, who knows.

No where was a lie, or a misstatement.

Nobody would be stupid or drunk enough to take a dual-gauss Shadow Cat into a match. Maybe if you look at this link again you'll understand why. You are literally making stuff up for the sake of argument and ignoring the fact that the stuff you're making up is so nonviable that nobody in their right mind would use it.

Dimento Graven, on 28 December 2015 - 01:51 AM, said:

Please, every day, EVERY day I play I see a gauss wielding Shadowcat. Did he remove ECM, or not, can't remember, I'm sure some people are for the extra ammo for the gauss. It's certainly NO MORE vulnerable than the IS 'mech given that it has extra speed, JJ's, and an option for ECM to reduce the chance of missile damage and random sensor detection.

Cry all you want, it's NOT a trash 'mech.

You see a gauss Shadow Cat EVERY day because the STOCK SHADOW CAT is a trial mech. It's a terrible build, nobody uses it except the noobs that don't know any better. It can only deal 510 damage (maximum) before running out of ammo and being left with a pitiful 2x cERML. A 20-ton Dasher has a measely five tons of podspcae and can carry double that along with ECM. After expending your pathetic 20 rounds of ammo you are literally better off ejecting out of your Shadowcat and getting into a Mist Lynx.

It's a trash mech.

Edited by Tarogato, 28 December 2015 - 02:32 PM.

[Tarogato]

Jman5, on 28 December 2015 - 02:25 PM, said:

I'm showing potential because the omnipod system is all over the place depending on what sort of builds you want to make. It's why I said "here is what they can have". Not here is how many hitpoints some random gargoyle build that you may or may not think is good has. Here is how many hitpoints some other random gargoyle build that you may or may not think is good has. It would never end for me because there are so many different ways to arrange omnipods. If you don't think a particular omnipod is worth +10 or whatever hitpoints it has over another with a different set of hardpoints fine by me. But you can often get decent numbers if you choose carefully.

As for your worry about hardpoints, I wouldn't. If you're using ballistics, you don't need 12 hardpoints. One or two ballistics is plenty. I only use 3 hardpoints on my warhawk-A and it does just fine. If all you want to run are a billion lasers, then by all means you can swap the omnipods around and take the hitpoint quirk hits. But that's not the only way to do well in a mech.

Perhaps if you want to clarify for everyone, you could go through and create the lowest hitpoints possible and together we could come up with the full hitpoint range of each of these mechs.

Then please show us a 3-hardpoints Gargoyle build using the omnipods I listed above that is viable when compared to a laser-toting build. Also, since this is a CW thread, make it CW-viable.

The point is, while the quirks exist, in order to use them you have to combine omnipods that nobody would realistically combine. Or in some cases you might up up with builds that don't take advantage of those quirks (I saw one in CW a few days ago, it was an LRM Gargoyle. He sure got the most out of his best-in-chassis left arm hitpoint quirks when I CT'd him...)

Dimento Graven, on 28 December 2015 - 02:24 PM, said:

Nobody plays with a standard in a Wolverine? Really? So an ST loss ends the game for those players.

Beyond that I'm glad to know that YOU are the appointed spokesman for the thousands of players out there with Wolverines... When's the next Wolverine union meeting, I'd like to show up...

Go ahead, ask anybody who's worth their salt whether they run STD or XL in their WVR-6K. Maybe you could start with players from the Div A teams from last season in MRBC. See what they say. If they all claim STD and agree with you that XL is a liability, I'll eat my foot on a platter.

Quote

BUT... per the norm, Clanners (and their IS alts)

I'm glad you think I'm some Clanner's IS alt. I really am. That's honestly pretty funny right there.

[Jman5]

Tarogato, on 28 December 2015 - 02:44 PM, said:

Then please show us a 3-hardpoints Gargoyle build using the omnipods I listed above that is viable when compared to a laser-toting build. Also, since this is a CW thread, make it CW-viable.

The point is, while the quirks exist, in order to use them you have to combine omnipods that nobody would realistically combine. Or in some cases you might up up with builds that don't take advantage of those quirks (I saw one in CW a few days ago, it was an LRM Gargoyle. He sure got the most out of his best-in-chassis left arm hitpoint quirks when I CT'd him...)

And who decides whether or not something is CW viable? 3 out of 4 of my CW builds right now are UAC based. You know what, I'm just going to let things lie because I've been in these situations too many times. Here is what always happens. I post a build, you tell me it's not viable, I say it is. You tell me to prove it. I spend 50 million cbills buying and equipping 3 gargoyles then spend 50 games leveling them up and getting comfortable with their playstyle and refining the build a little more. I then play it in CW a few times, post screenshots and get accused of cherry picking games against derps. Nothing gets proven except that I'm silly enough to blow a week over an internet argument.

Tell you what though. I do own a Warhawk with the max hitpoints possible and I do run it in CW so its all ready to go. If you like I can record my next CW game and post it here.

Edited by Jman5, 28 December 2015 - 03:23 PM.

[Tarogato]

Jman5, on 28 December 2015 - 03:15 PM, said:

And who decides whether or not something is CW viable? 3 out of 4 of my CW builds right now are UAC based. You know what, I'm just going to let things lie because I've been in these situations too many times. Here is what always happens. I post a build, you tell me it's not viable, I say it is. You tell me to prove it. I spend 50 million cbills buying and equipping 3 gargoyles then spend 50 games leveling them up and getting comfortable with their playstyle. I then play it in CW a few times, post screenshots and get accused of cherry picking games against derps. Nothing gets proven except that I'm silly enough to blow a week over an internet argument.

Tell you what though. I do own a Warhawk with the max hitpoints possible and I do run it in CW so its all ready to go. If you like I can record my next CW game and post it here.

Ah, but the WHK has podspace, that's why it works with your limited hardpoint loadout. The WHK gets 32.5 tons and the GAR gets a mere 20 tons. Which is why I asked - show me a GAR build that would work for CW using all those defensive quirks. If you can't, then why argue that the GAR gets to use those quirks?

ERLL sniper: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a66e47b084e20bb
... but the Timber does this much better for 5 tons less. So why bother?

Gaussvomit: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...012614f29873806 ... but the Timber does it better for 5 tons less. Why bother?

UAC/20 brawler: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...70805f7bd469424 but the Timber does this better and the GAR's ERSL build is much better anyway. The ERSL build is the only one that does something better than a Timber can, and it doesn't get hitpoints quirks on the CT or gorilla arms.

It just seems silly to me to say that these underperforming chassis can benefit from these buffs when really... they can't.

[Evan20k]

What the Warhawk needs imo is 30+% Accel/Decel boosts tied to the CT like the EXE and Gar got, coupled with a bit more torso armor. Despite the torsos getting fairly sizable structure buffs, they still just peel off if anything with respectable firepower shoots at them. Even so, I love the mech to death and will continue to pilot mine no matter how good or bad they may be.

[VorpalAnvil]

Tarogato, on 28 December 2015 - 02:44 PM, said:

Go ahead, ask anybody who's worth their salt whether they run STD or XL in their WVR-6K. Maybe you could start with players from the Div A teams from last season in MRBC. See what they say. If they all claim STD and agree with you that XL is a liability, I'll eat my foot on a platter.





I'm glad you think I'm some Clanner's IS alt. I really am. That's honestly pretty funny right there.

Just checked my stats for the WVR-6K. 1157 public matches played, all with an XL. And BTW, this was my favourite mech before the Dec 1st patch. But what do I know compared to some Davion (lol)?

Edited by VorpalAnvil, 28 December 2015 - 04:13 PM.

[Jman5]

Tarogato, on 28 December 2015 - 03:32 PM, said:

Ah, but the WHK has podspace, that's why it works with your limited hardpoint loadout. The WHK gets 32.5 tons and the GAR gets a mere 20 tons. Which is why I asked - show me a GAR build that would work for CW using all those defensive quirks. If you can't, then why argue that the GAR gets to use those quirks?

ERLL sniper: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a66e47b084e20bb
... but the Timber does this much better for 5 tons less. So why bother?

Gaussvomit: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...012614f29873806 ... but the Timber does it better for 5 tons less. Why bother?

UAC/20 brawler: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...70805f7bd469424 but the Timber does this better and the GAR's ERSL build is much better anyway. The ERSL build is the only one that does something better than a Timber can, and it doesn't get hitpoints quirks on the CT or gorilla arms.

It just seems silly to me to say that these underperforming chassis can benefit from these buffs when really... they can't.

Why bother? Because you get ~ +100 hitpoints, sizable agility quirks, and ballistic weapon quirks while the timber gets 0. It's the whole reason why a Nova can shrug off big hits and a hunchback IIC explodes when you breath on it. Its the whole trade off you make for not having perfect upgrades, engine size, and hardpoints. You get oodles of hitpoint and agility quirks.

The original point is to show which clan mechs can have lots of hitpoints. I then went down the list of all the clan mechs that have a lot of hitpoint quirks and showed their potential. It was not to play theorycraft about the gargoyle. Are all the top HP omnipod set ups super competitive and viable without any alteration? I don't know. I doubt it because that wasn't the point. But frankly, even 60 hitpoints is a nice advantage to have and more than several IS variants get.

You want to know what I would probably build if I decided to build a ballistic gargoyle for CW? I would probably sacrifice the +8 HP CT and go the +93 hitpoint route build here.

Or perhaps I would take the SRMs out and go with a LPL in the CT.

Anyway this is going to get stupid real quick. It's either going to devolve into theorycrafting nonsense or I'll have to spend 50 million cbills and an entire week or two proving a stupid point.

Edited by Jman5, 28 December 2015 - 04:28 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Jman5, on 28 December 2015 - 03:15 PM, said:

And who decides whether or not something is CW viable? 3 out of 4 of my CW builds right now are UAC based. You know what, I'm just going to let things lie because I've been in these situations too many times. Here is what always happens. I post a build, you tell me it's not viable, I say it is. You tell me to prove it. I spend 50 million cbills buying and equipping 3 gargoyles then spend 50 games leveling them up and getting comfortable with their playstyle and refining the build a little more. I then play it in CW a few times, post screenshots and get accused of cherry picking games against derps. Nothing gets proven except that I'm silly enough to blow a week over an internet argument.

Tell you what though. I do own a Warhawk with the max hitpoints possible and I do run it in CW so its all ready to go. If you like I can record my next CW game and post it here.

Well, Mr Gargles doesn't really have the pod space for 3 big guns.
20 tons only.

5 does it, for 2LPL 3ERML with heatsinks
5 does it for 4 ERMLs Gauss

7 does it for UAC20 with 6 Smalls.


Mr Gargles tends to need roughly a half dozen (like the Prime arm for big structure and the 4 or 6 E arm).

[Jman5]

Mcgral18, on 28 December 2015 - 04:35 PM, said:

Well, Mr Gargles doesn't really have the pod space for 3 big guns.
20 tons only.

5 does it, for 2LPL 3ERML with heatsinks
5 does it for 4 ERMLs Gauss

7 does it for UAC20 with 6 Smalls.


Mr Gargles tends to need roughly a half dozen (like the Prime arm for big structure and the 4 or 6 E arm).

The viability of the gargoyle is becoming a distraction. All I did was list all the clan mechs with lots of hitpoint quirks and how much they could have if they maxed it. If you think 6 energy slots is worth losing 20 hitpoints be my guest. Whether or not you think some of those mechs are impossible to work with is your opinion in the same way that there are plenty of unpopular IS variants with lots of hitpoint quirks. The point is there are clan mechs out there with big HP buffs from lights to assaults. If you think the gargoyle is bad and the warhawk is good, then run the freaking warhawk. The point still stands that clans have mechs with lots of hitpoint potential. Exactly what that hitpoint number is for the build you want is entirely up to you as an individual.

What I'm not going to do is going point by point lobbying and theorycrafting for every ******* clan mech that isn't the timberwolf and arctic cheetah. I really don't care if you think the iceferret is a bad mech.

Have fun guys.

[Tarogato]

Jman5, on 28 December 2015 - 04:25 PM, said:

Why bother? Because you get ~ +100 hitpoints, sizable agility quirks, and ballistic weapon quirks while the timber gets 0. It's the whole reason why a Nova can shrug off big hits and a hunchback IIC explodes when you breath on it. Its the whole trade off you make for not having perfect upgrades, engine size, and hardpoints. You get oodles of hitpoint and agility quirks.

The original point is to show which clan mechs can have lots of hitpoints. I then went down the list of all the clan mechs that have a lot of hitpoint quirks and showed their potential. It was not to play theorycraft about the gargoyle. Are all the top HP omnipod set ups super competitive and viable without any alteration? I don't know. I doubt it because that wasn't the point. But frankly, even 60 hitpoints is a nice advantage to have and more than several IS variants get.

You want to know what I would probably build if I decided to build a ballistic gargoyle for CW? I would probably sacrifice the +8 HP CT and go the +93 hitpoint route build here.

Or perhaps I would take the SRMs out and go with a LPL in the CT.

Anyway this is going to get stupid real quick. It's either going to devolve into theorycrafting nonsense or I'll have to spend 50 million cbills and an entire week or two proving a stupid point.

When I dived into this topic, I didn't expect you to essentially start arguing that that the Gargoyle has advantages that the Timber doesn't. Advantages that makes the Gargoyle worth taking over the Timber. Am I imagining things or is that actually what you're saying?

1. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0930d50cc3f12ae

vs.

2. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0e6d0494f5d7326

Which looks better to you?

Again, saying that a mech has this quirks available doesn't mean it gets to use them. What you're saying is "hey, the Gargles can have these hitpoint quirks and mobility quirks!" and what I'm saying is "nobody in their right mind would use the omnipods associated with those quirks, so it's as if they don't exist at all." Gargles does one thing better than the Timber - it can boat cERSL like nobody's business. And that build gets almost none of the quirks.

It's like saying "the IFR-A left arm gets 21 extra points, it's super tanky, that totally contributes to making it a viable chassis!" But what do you do with it...? This? You can't shield with it, so the only reason to take it is to use the ballistic slot. But for what? A machine gun instead of two ERML?