522 replies to this topic

[Kjudoon]

Lily from animove, on 07 January 2016 - 08:01 AM, said:

take away the shiny plates for merc units, Merc units fight for houses/clans so hey would never own any planets themselves. And boom one of the only big "epeen" measurement is gone. This will make mercs "settle down". And when leaving a faction for another alos removes these labels, there woudl also be no faction hopping as "non merc" group.

Agree 100%.

[DarklightCA]

Nastyogre, on 07 January 2016 - 10:04 AM, said:

There should be no Clan Mercs, It goes against everything the idea of the Clans represent. Want to use Clan mechs in CW? Become a clanner. Merc units should ONLY be for Inner Sphere.

That don't make sense, Clan populations are already a fraction of what IS populations are. What lore demands should not be more important than what game balance demands. I mean you can look what happened when a lot of the merc Unit's look IS contracts all at once. Clan's got completely stomped and a lot of them stopped playing.

Right now CSJ has one planet, CGB has two, Wolf has 4, and only CJF is really hanging on. Clan's have been pretty much wiped. They need more loyalist population and for there current population to stop being cry babies because they lose planets then stop playing community warfare. Untill that time Merc's are a good source of population reinforcement.

Edited by l)arklight, 07 January 2016 - 05:32 PM.

[MischiefSC]

l)arklight, on 07 January 2016 - 05:30 PM, said:

That don't make sense, Clan populations are already a fraction of what IS populations are. What lore demands should not be more important than what game balance demands. I mean you can look what happened when a lot of the merc Unit's look IS contracts all at once. Clan's got completely stomped and a lot of them stopped playing.

Right now CSJ has one planet, CGB has two, Wolf has 4, and only CJF is really hanging on. Clan's have been pretty much wiped. They need more loyalist population and for there current population to stop being cry babies because they lose planets then stop playing community warfare. Untill that time Merc's are a good source of population reinforcement.

Not to be a a hole here but the Clan players really were total pansies about all of this. Hair flouncing, fit throwing tantrum. Clans are getting hammered because the bulk of Clan players lost their advantage, cried and ran away and are now pointing to the map and saying "See?!? This is what happens when we don't get what we want! LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO."

Let the clans burn. CJF is taking worlds against huge odds. They deserve a mountain of props for not being crying little *******. I am firmly against giving Clans anything to bribe them back from their tantrum.

However merc teams in mwo need to play Clans. That's just the realities of the game
It's not lore, but it's the reality. Any perks though? Screw that. If they can't handle playing on an even field then I'd rather the game fail than bribe them.

[Tesunie]

Silhouette Shadows, on 07 January 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:

I'm not really understanding what do you mean when you say upside down? Are you saying that there is something wrong with the way the map is currently painted? If so, why? If a team who was losing is now gaining ground - what's inherently wrong with that?

I think he meant it as "Mercs being able to change sides flips CW upside down (by one moment a faction spreading out of control, and then whatever faction that/those mercs go to next expand like crazy, and the faction they were once in diminishes greatly)".

Nothing is wrong with mercs changing sides, but they currently can:
- Change sides, and fight for anyone in a relatively short amount of time. (Not an overly large problem.*)
- Tend to dictate the expansion of a given faction by their presence. (Not an overly large problem.*)
- Are able to dictate where that faction is going to be attacking while they remain there. (Can be a problem, and can be counter to that faction's actual interest, especially when they leave...)
- Earn C-bills for, sometimes, hindering the faction that has "hired them". (And by hinder, I mean kick hornet nests and then leave, letting the rest of the faction "get stung" by a new angry front that was once quite.)
- Seem to go out of their way to avoid each other. (Maybe in appearance only, or they are really avoiding each other. Not sure. Either way, CW was designed for Unit vs Unit, and it doesn't seem to be happening as much as it should.)
- Remain (like most units) on an attack only, which results in a lot of defensive PUGs responding. (Not the Units/Mercs fault here, but actual game play design, and player preference. I wouldn't even say it's PGI's fault, as it was clear that it was designed for players to respond to other's by defending when being attacked. It just happens that Units find it more effective to attack, rather than defend. This is why I say they may or may not be avoiding each other, as if they each attack...)

* I say it isn't an overly large problem, because as a player of the game I see their reasons for changing factions, and I don't want to see their options be too limited, as I wouldn't like it if my own options were limited too much either. It's part of the game, and they are simply playing it as it is. Every game is like this basically, and there are other issues that are more detrimental to game play and CW in my opinion.

[Kjudoon]

Currently it's a merc world for mercs, and its something that the game, like canon, cannot and would not permit. The factions are supposed to have the real power and so they should. I think PGI stepped in the right direction with the concept of "Loyalist Battlefront Voting" allowing the loyalist players to choose the next battlefronts. The thing is, this is one step down a much bigger set of social control and depth and so I hope they take many more this direction for things like:

Merc Employment: The ability to fire mercs that are being 'locker room poison' to their faction. (Mercs should get a whole contractual system put together to work with a Loyalist Bidding process as well.)
Faction Treaties: Allow factions to declare war/peace against each other. (Or get underhanded and play proxy war with mercs allowing for covert ops and false flag operations.)
Trade Relations: Allow loyalists to vote on whether or not trade should be restricted or enhanced between it's allies.
Unit Territories: Once units become in-game assets, assign them battlefronts, primary planetary garrisons and more things that will work in concert with their unit coffers.

It needs work and these are rough initial ideas meant to inspire, but this sort of system to work IN CONJUNCTION WITH other algorithyms and presets would give players a better experience. Factions are supposed to be in control and right now, PGI, in lieu of hiring a team of community managers to act as faction leads playing the parts of the heads of all houses, needs to be something guided by the players themselves more directly but NOT COMPLETELY! We do not need runaway decency to establish a foothold here in the Inner Sphere or Clans.

This is all part and parcel of the game (I suspect most) players in MWO really wanted to facilitate the current game we do have. The "real" game behind the game. So, until such time as Battletech ports over their procedural contract stuff and out of mech experience, this is a direction I'd strongly suggest the game move to.

[Armando]

Kjudoon, on 07 January 2016 - 06:48 PM, said:

Currently it's a merc world for mercs

How about no.

Mercs get no special rewards for being mercs.

They have the same contract options that are available to everyone who plays the game. They get the same 'rewards' for a win as anyone else, they get zero bonuses when the lose.

There is absolutely ZERO difference between mercs, factions members, and lone wolfs in CW....we all share the exact same 'lack of options' when it comes to CW (the same is true for public queue for that matter).

[Kjudoon]

Armando, on 07 January 2016 - 07:20 PM, said:

How about no.

Mercs get no special rewards for being mercs.

They have the same contract options that are available to everyone who plays the game. They get the same 'rewards' for a win as anyone else, they get zero bonuses when the lose.

There is absolutely ZERO difference between mercs, factions members, and lone wolfs in CW....we all share the exact same 'lack of options' when it comes to CW (the same is true for public queue for that matter).

Then you aren't paying attention to what I said.

There SHOULD be, and NEEDS to be a huge difference between a merc and a loyalist.

Mercs should be paid better and rewarded for loyalty for length of service. They also should pay their own Rearm & Repair. They also should have the freedom to put whatever they want into a dropdeck.

Freelancers should pay even more for what it takes to keep their own individual mechs running. On the other hand, they should be either paid the most Cbills or the most Loyalty points because they are dedicated themselves personally to the cause (loyalty) or worth the money paid them (Cbills). Or are flipping pirates that keep all the money and actually get negative loyalty scores as they become a scourge.

Loyalists need to be the easiest path. No R&R costs unless they don't use the prescribed faction equipment, Very nice loyalty rewards, but less cash and the smallest expenses. Plus... they get a say in what way the faction moves on the battlefield and goals the faction wishes to accomplish. They also should have an influence on who is allowed into a faction. Something that can be controlled by creating an MRBC rating for units... let alone individual players based on their success in the game (and possibly attitude in the community).

If you want to protect the merc life? I get that. Unenlightened self interest is easy to comprehend. You're currently the recipiant of control of the game via social movement. Some units are actually finding a way to manipulate the coffer system through payoffs to certain rich individuals. You still have total freedom, no consequences and no meaning to battles. What's not to love?

The problem is, this isn't lore. This isn't community. This certainly isn't the vision set out even by PGI's standards.

And that's why it must be, and WILL be, fixed.

The merc gravy train will end because it must.

Loyal

Edited by Kjudoon, 07 January 2016 - 07:38 PM.

[Armando]

Kjudoon, on 07 January 2016 - 07:36 PM, said:

Then you aren't paying attention to what I said.

There SHOULD be, and NEEDS to be a huge difference between a merc and a loyalist.

Mercs should be paid better and rewarded for loyalty for length of service. They also should pay their own Rearm & Repair. They also should have the freedom to put whatever they want into a dropdeck.

Freelancers should pay even more for what it takes to keep their own individual mechs running. On the other hand, they should be either paid the most Cbills or the most Loyalty points because they are dedicated themselves personally to the cause (loyalty) or worth the money paid them (Cbills). Or are flipping pirates that keep all the money and actually get negative loyalty scores as they become a scourge.

Loyalists need to be the easiest path. No R&R costs unless they don't use the prescribed faction equipment, Very nice loyalty rewards, but less cash and the smallest expenses. Plus... they get a say in what way the faction moves on the battlefield and goals the faction wishes to accomplish. They also should have an influence on who is allowed into a faction. Something that can be controlled by creating an MRBC rating for units... let alone individual players based on their success in the game (and possibly attitude in the community).

If you want to protect the merc life? I get that. Unenlightened self interest is easy to comprehend. You're currently the recipiant of control of the game via social movement. Some units are actually finding a way to manipulate the coffer system through payoffs to certain rich individuals. You still have total freedom, no consequences and no meaning to battles. What's not to love?

The problem is, this isn't lore. This isn't community. This certainly isn't the vision set out even by PGI's standards.

And that's why it must be, and WILL be, fixed.

The merc gravy train will end because it must.

Loyal

All the stuff you went on to say....not what I was responding to, I simply took issue with the assessment that...

"Currently it's a merc world for mercs".

...BECAUSE....Mercs have the same options, with the same rewards as everybody else in the game.
_____________________________________________________
If you want my opinion on 'other' things you have said I will start with...

"There SHOULD be, and NEEDS to be a huge difference between a merc and a loyalist."

IMO, you are 100% spot on. My suggestion: Make their 'goals' different from each other.... and by that I mean -

- Loyalists: Goal is PLANETS

The measure of a Faction is by their planet counts. The Factions have a 'leader board' and the Faction that has the greatest "+" in the +/- from their original number of planets tops the board.

Loyalist units can have a 'Faction Unit Leader Board" and the Faction Units that have taken the greatest number of planets for their Faction tops the board.

- Mercenaries: Goal is C-BILLS

The measure of the Mercenaries is by their paychecks. The "Mercenary Leader Board" is all about the C-Bills and is top by players who have made the most overall C-Bills from CW matches.

Mercenary Units can have a "Mercenary Unit Leader Board" and the Mercenary Unit that has made the most overall C-Bills from CW matches tops the board.

- Lone Wolves: Goal is WINS

The measure of a Lone Wolf is the win count. The "Lone Wolf Leader Board" is all about the WINS and is topped by players who have the highest number of wins in CW.

No "Lone Wolf Unit Leader Board"....well, I hope you can figure out why. /wink
_________________________________________________________

This is not to say that Loyalist will not make C-Bills or get Wins....they just won't be graded by it.
This is not to say that Mercenaries will not take planets* or get Wins...they just won't be graded by it.
This is not to say that Lone Wolves will not make C-Bills or take planets**...they just won't be graded by it

* - Any planet that a mercenary unit tags will count toward the planet count for the Faction that paid the mercenary's contract.

** - PGI adds the ability for Lone Wolves to take planets....If the "Lone Wolves" collectively have the most 'ticks' for wins on a planet during the battle cycle, the planet GETS TAGGED AS "Lone Wolf". Also, any planet that a Lone Wolf tags will count toward the planet count for the Faction the Lone Wolf is playing for.

I say this because I have been told repeatedly that "solo players can work as a team" in my snarky titled tread about solo's not being allowed in CW.....and they convinced me it IS POSSIBLE for 'solo' (true lone wolves) to work together as a team.

For that reason, IMHO, Lone Wolves should be able to take a planet too and demonstrate ONCE AND FOR ALL that such faith is not misplaced.
_________________________________________________

As an interesting side effect to my suggestion, PGI could have 'seasons' without having to 'reset the map'. All they would need to do is note the 'current faction planet count' then set the 'planet' (for factions), 'c-bills' (for mercs) and 'win' (for loan wolfs) counts back to 0.
_________________________________________________

I would like to add that as I am myself a mercenary and I could care less about planets or how many my unit has tagged...I am in it for the cookies (C-BILLS).

So please, tell me how as a mercenary this game is "my world for me"???

Edited by Armando, 07 January 2016 - 10:01 PM.

[Greyhart]

Hotthedd, on 07 January 2016 - 09:48 AM, said:

This is the part that I have a major problem with.
Having some players have a monetary oversight over another group of players opens up countless opportunities for abuse.

I think that having a set mathematical algorithm would be the fairest system.

Yes there is always a risk with allowing players to incentives certain things. clearly it might be possible for a unit to rig the system by setting up a loyalist unit of their own and then setting favourable rates. However I don't see why certain mechanics might help to alleviate that problem. firstly opposing factions would be inclined to compete and therefore there would be incentives to fight against the people gaming the system. Secondly if the contracts remain open for a period then other teams can use them too. alternatively if there is a charge to the loyalist unit of giving the bonus there would be a need for that unit to be active.

My view is that the loyalist must have a means of competing for merc companies between themselves and merc companies should be looking for the best deals on contracts and shifting around to ensure player balance.

However I suppose you could have an algorithm giving bonus rewards based on player population contracted to a particular faction and that factions control of the map. So if there is a low population there is a massive bonus to the rewards but if the faction has a bloated empire the rewards are reduced. A system that encourages almost a ****-stasis on the galactic map.

I like the idea of the stock mode for anyone wanting to drop on a freelancer contract. However they would have to face other freelancers otherwise really unfair. I might suggest that all Clan vs IS matches be freelancer only.

allowing only unit members to decide their own drop decks should also incentives people to join units and hopefully increase team work.

Edited by Greyhart, 08 January 2016 - 01:27 AM.

[Kjudoon]

Quote

So please, tell me how as a mercenary this game is "my world for me"???

Simple. You have none of the restrictions and limitations a Merc SHOULD have compared to a loyalist and you can change factions and 'unlock all the achievements' in the game without real penalty for hopping from faction to faction, essentially abusing the system that was never intended... yes intended for that level of... ahem... exploitation.

That's why it's a Merc's world for a merc.

[B0oN]

Here´s an offer
:
Hey, Russ Bullock ?
Come join the wickedly merry band of MS for a week or longer on TS and ingame, we are online more or less all around the clock and we would be more than looking forward helping you understand your own game since you look very, very disconnected from what is actually going on in the Inner Sphere .

So, Mr. Bullock, your ball, play it.

ts.mercstaralliance.com

P.S.: Saying "all the big merc units don´t fight each other" is a highly distorted and quite untrue comment and if this wasn´t about a game I could get the distinct impression that someone tried to ruin my reputation, for which I would have the one or the other word with a few lawyers .

[Joey Tankblaster]

Rad Hanzo, on 08 January 2016 - 02:26 AM, said:

Here´s an offer
:
Hey, Russ Bullock ?
Come join the wickedly merry band of MS for a week or longer on TS and ingame, we are online more or less all around the clock and we would be more than looking forward helping you understand your own game since you look very, very disconnected from what is actually going on in the Inner Sphere .

So, Mr. Bullock, your ball, play it.

ts.mercstaralliance.com

P.S.: Saying "all the big merc units don´t fight each other" is a highly distorted and quite untrue comment and if this wasn´t about a game I could get the distinct impression that someone tried to ruin my reputation, for which I would have the one or the other word with a few lawyers .

Do you really think that you and MS are so important that Russ will do this?

[B0oN]

Nope, Joey .

But I seem to be the first one to express such an invitation to Russ and am pretty confident that most, if not all, of the "BIG BAD MERC UNITS" would have the exact same courtesy towards hosting Russ and explaining things to him .

[Tom Sawyer]

Well it appears some other big bad evil units other the seal clubbing evil nasty MS have joined the Jade Falcons. BO, K-COM, 228 to just spot name a few.

Said big bad evil nasty units then collided with the evil nasty pug stomping MS who appears NOT to have jumped over immediately to join with this other big bad evil nasty units.

And you know what? It was FRACKING AWESOME. We actually got rolled in some games. Others where nail biting 48 to 47 battles. One even came down to a final kill in the last second causing us to lose. But it was GG all around as everyone had fun 12 on 12.

It actually felt like community warfare. It was brutal. It was fun. Our prospects and veterans got a taste once more of what CW should be.

I look forward to tonight when I can get some more

[Hotthedd]

Greyhart, on 08 January 2016 - 01:25 AM, said:

Yes there is always a risk with allowing players to incentives certain things. clearly it might be possible for a unit to rig the system by setting up a loyalist unit of their own and then setting favourable rates. However I don't see why certain mechanics might help to alleviate that problem. firstly opposing factions would be inclined to compete and therefore there would be incentives to fight against the people gaming the system. Secondly if the contracts remain open for a period then other teams can use them too. alternatively if there is a charge to the loyalist unit of giving the bonus there would be a need for that unit to be active.

My view is that the loyalist must have a means of competing for merc companies between themselves and merc companies should be looking for the best deals on contracts and shifting around to ensure player balance.

However I suppose you could have an algorithm giving bonus rewards based on player population contracted to a particular faction and that factions control of the map. So if there is a low population there is a massive bonus to the rewards but if the faction has a bloated empire the rewards are reduced. A system that encourages almost a ****-stasis on the galactic map.

I like the idea of the stock mode for anyone wanting to drop on a freelancer contract. However they would have to face other freelancers otherwise really unfair. I might suggest that all Clan vs IS matches be freelancer only.

allowing only unit members to decide their own drop decks should also incentives people to join units and hopefully increase team work.

In lore, the map of the I.S. has changed very little over the last 500 years...

[Bud Crue]

Tom Sawyer, on 08 January 2016 - 04:26 AM, said:

Well it appears some other big bad evil units other the seal clubbing evil nasty MS have joined the Jade Falcons. BO, K-COM, 228 to just spot name a few.

Thank heaven. Hopefully the big bad evil units will hurry up and help roll back the Clan losses (and map reset) to give all these poor nerfed Clanners an ego boost and a reason to live. Maybe help cleanse these forums of the "No point in playing clan anymore" threads. Do your part Tom. You and MS need to get over there with the rest of the big bad evil units and help restore "balance" before Paul decides another nerf/buff pass is needed.

[gloowa]

Tom Sawyer, on 08 January 2016 - 04:26 AM, said:

Well it appears some other big bad evil units other the seal clubbing evil nasty MS have joined the Jade Falcons. BO, K-COM, 228 to just spot name a few.

Said big bad evil nasty units then collided with the evil nasty pug stomping MS who appears NOT to have jumped over immediately to join with this other big bad evil nasty units.

And you know what? It was FRACKING AWESOME. We actually got rolled in some games. Others where nail biting 48 to 47 battles. One even came down to a final kill in the last second causing us to lose. But it was GG all around as everyone had fun 12 on 12.

It actually felt like community warfare. It was brutal. It was fun. Our prospects and veterans got a taste once more of what CW should be.

I look forward to tonight when I can get some more

this so much.

Our yesterday EU group got three or four 12mans in a row (i think?). Best CW time i had in a long, long time. Kudos to BO for pushing our **** in HARD. That was a wake up call we needed. And then, there was a downside. 5th match was something like a 4man + assorted pugs. And with how pumped we were after those 4 matches, we ended up winning 48-13 or something simmilar. And the shittalk began. And there was simply no way to explain to the angry pugs that we just had 4 highly competitive matches on this very planet, and that we actually preferred those matches to that stomp. It was all "you just stomp pugs" and "avoid other 12 mans". So yeah, great. Pug puts his hand into meat grinder, blames person that operates it.

Anyway, best CW time in a long while, even if i will walk funny for a week after that BO match. Hope for more. Plz be rough KCom, BO and others. I love it rough.

Edited by gloowa, 08 January 2016 - 04:48 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Armando, on 07 January 2016 - 07:20 PM, said:

How about no.

Mercs get no special rewards for being mercs.

They have the same contract options that are available to everyone who plays the game. They get the same 'rewards' for a win as anyone else, they get zero bonuses when the lose.

There is absolutely ZERO difference between mercs, factions members, and lone wolfs in CW....we all share the exact same 'lack of options' when it comes to CW (the same is true for public queue for that matter).

What incentive is there for anyone to be loyalist, other than roleplay? Mercs get the advantages of variety in mech choice.. there is no reason to choose loyalist over merc, so Mercs outnumber loyalists AND tend to be better players (its not a hard and fast rule of course, but roleplayers tend to be worse at the game than non roleplayers, because they often limit themselves in stupid ways while mech building because its 'closer to lore')

Loyalists should outnumber Mercs, because its silly otherwise.. there needs to be an incentive that causes that to happen.

[gloowa]

Widowmaker1981, on 08 January 2016 - 05:22 AM, said:

What incentive is there for anyone to be loyalist, other than roleplay? Mercs get the advantages of variety in mech choice.. there is no reason to choose loyalist over merc, so Mercs outnumber loyalists AND tend to be better players (its not a hard and fast rule of course, but roleplayers tend to be worse at the game than non roleplayers, because they often limit themselves in stupid ways while mech building because its 'closer to lore')

Loyalists should outnumber Mercs, because its silly otherwise.. there needs to be an incentive that causes that to happen.

Lock last X loyalty levels for loyalists only. ta-dah. You can send royalties for the idea to my unit coffers.

Edited by gloowa, 08 January 2016 - 05:27 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Widowmaker1981, on 08 January 2016 - 05:22 AM, said:

What incentive is there for anyone to be loyalist, other than roleplay? Mercs get the advantages of variety in mech choice.. there is no reason to choose loyalist over merc, so Mercs outnumber loyalists AND tend to be better players (its not a hard and fast rule of course, but roleplayers tend to be worse at the game than non roleplayers, because they often limit themselves in stupid ways while mech building because its 'closer to lore')

Loyalists should outnumber Mercs, because its silly otherwise.. there needs to be an incentive that causes that to happen.

Ideally there should be a carrot AND a stick.

Loyalists get free re-arm and repair, and deep discounts on 'Mechs produced by their faction.
Loyalists can vote on attack lanes.
Free paint in their unit's official colors, maybe even a free faction camo? free House decal?
...But they can only attack/defend in their lanes, cannot defend other faction planets.

Mercenaries must pay for re-arm and repair, and must have X loyalty with a faction to get discounts on 'Mechs.
Mercenaries can attack/defend any planet that is in play.
Mercenaries would be subject to a MRBC rating, as well as a Loyalty rating, which would affect payouts (+/-)

Probably lots of other things to be added.