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Gauss Nerf Unacceptable

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#61 Fastwind

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Posted 10 January 2016 - 02:21 PM

View PostDelpheus Merideus, on 09 January 2016 - 03:25 PM, said:

Gauss is useless if you know to take cover.
Lucky for you, LRMs can fire over cover!

You need 15 tons just to mount one, not including ammo.
A clam LRM 15 is 3.5 tons.

You can't rapid fire gauss. You have to wait 7 seconds between shots.
LRMs come down in rapid fire from people that spam 3 or 4 on chain fire.

i'm talking about LASERS being op compared to any other weapon system

lrm's can't fire over every cover in fact they only work on very little cover
and i think gauss and lrm's are skillwise pretty much at the same lvl

#62 Lightfoot

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 06:05 AM

Remove the Charge-up, it creates an unfair field of play because it is dependent on whether you use a Mouse or not and how long you have played MechWarrior. The de-sync effect only works on non-gaming mice and controllers with no profiling software.

Finally the charge-up proved all the above was true when so many players mastered it that the Gauss Rifle had to have it's recycle increased to 6 seconds. Meaning that it only ever worked at the time when most players had not learned to use it. That still leaves the 30-40% of MWO players who could not master the charge-up ever though.

The Gauss Rifle might be better balanced with no charge-up, but with a massive heat spike if two are fired at once. MWO already has the mechanics to enable this in Ghost Heat. With the attribute that the Gauss Rifle has a longer recycle than an AC20 of course.

#63 Ano

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 10:41 PM

View PostLightfoot, on 11 January 2016 - 06:05 AM, said:

Remove the Charge-up, it creates an unfair field of play because it is dependent on whether you use a Mouse or not and how long you have played MechWarrior. The de-sync effect only works on non-gaming mice and controllers with no profiling software.


While it might be possible to come up with a good argument for removing the gauss charge-up mechanic*, I don't think this is it. MWO is a game which is designed to be played with keyboard + mouse. It "supports" joystick play (although from what I understand, not well, and not without some fiddling with the cfg files) and I guess you could probably play it with a game controller too, but expecting the game to be retooled to make those control options comparable with keyboard + mouse seems a bit of a stretch.

Equally, having a weapon system's effectiveness be "dependent on ... how long you have played MechWarrior" (which I'm reading as meaning "dependent on personal skill and practice") seems like a *good* thing, provided there also exists reasonably effective weapon systems which are more accessible for newer players.

Personally, I like the gauss charge mechanic. Why? Because it's not the same as the other weapons systems. So it makes firing a gauss rifle "feel" a bit different. That's a good thing in my eyes. Think about these mechanics:
  • lasers (aim and click, hold beam on target for max damage)
  • PPCs (aim and click but allow for travel time vs. range)
  • IS ballistics (aim and and click, allow for individual travel times vs. range)
  • Clan ballistics (aim and click, allow for individual travel times vs range, track aimpoint to target movement to maximise damage from multiple projectiles)
  • LRMs (achieve/hold lock during missile flight, be aware of different arcs for direct fire vs. indirect fire, be aware of travel time vs. target movement to cover. Ground attack mode)
  • sSRMs (achieve/hold lock during missile flight(?) in short-range engagements only)
  • SRMs (aim and click, allow for travel time and spread vs range )
  • Gauss (aim and charge, release to fire, allow for travel time vs range)
At a glance it might look complicated, but there are only a few basic mechanics interacting
  • Aim and click
  • Track target (for weapons with a 'duration' -- lasers and clan UACs)
  • Leading (for all 'projectile' weapons with travel time -- ACs, Gauss, PPCs, SRMs)
  • Maintaining target lock (LRMs, SSRMs)
  • Pre-charging (Gauss)
I'm not by *any* means a stellar player, and I certainly try to minimise the number of different mechanics in operation on any one mech I'm piloting -- that is to say, I try not to have more than two, and, frequently just have one -- but I actively like that different builds involve different mechanics. That's part of what makes the game interesting.

#64 Lightfoot

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Posted 12 January 2016 - 09:28 AM

@Ano and everyone

Actually MechWarrior is a Joystick game. MWO was made to support players who do not own a joystick since most players do not right now, but MechWarrior is still designed more like a flight-sim with yaw, pitch, and rudder/ torso-twist. MWO has the best joystick support of any MechWarrior game ever and it's not hard to set up a joystick to be very accurate. Results will vary with the quality of your joystick. (I use a Thrustmaster 16000m with two coils of the return spring zip tied to reduce return strength. This is highly accurate and cheaper than a game mouse.)

However, the Gauss charge-up is designed only for a Mouse, copying the basic drag and drop function which is obviously hard to do with a joystick. It has to go. No other MechWarrior game ever needed such extreme measures to balance the Gauss Rifle. They just gave the Gauss a longer recharge than an AC20 and this was enough to consign the Gauss to non-brawling ranges. The same would be true in MWO. With the current 6 second total recycle it would never come close to the TTK that laser-vomit does right now so having players using the Gauss instead would extend matches.

The issue of 2xGauss would be better dealt with by having it cause a massive heat-spike.

Lore-wise Battle Tech's charge-up weapons do flat damage and extra damage if charged and the Gauss does not. If it keeps the charge-up that should be for a bonus damage option. I would be OK with the Gauss Rifle doing 12 damage if snap-fired and 16 damage if charged-up, but the charge-up should never be required to fire the Gauss Rifle. This would be much more dynamic and rewarding when a player pulled off the bonus damage shot!

It comes down to fear, not balance. Some people give in to fear of the arsenal that a battlemech can carry and some embrace the challenge. The trick is to know good challenging balance from fear of what players will do with it. Knowing this is vital to get the most out of the world that Battle Tech offers.

#65 M T

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Posted 13 January 2016 - 06:32 AM

View PostLightfoot, on 12 January 2016 - 09:28 AM, said:

@Ano and everyone

Actually MechWarrior is a Joystick game. MWO was made to support players who do not own a joystick since most players do not right now, but MechWarrior is still designed more like a flight-sim with yaw, pitch, and rudder/ torso-twist. MWO has the best joystick support of any MechWarrior game ever and it's not hard to set up a joystick to be very accurate. Results will vary with the quality of your joystick. (I use a Thrustmaster 16000m with two coils of the return spring zip tied to reduce return strength. This is highly accurate and cheaper than a game mouse.)

However, the Gauss charge-up is designed only for a Mouse, copying the basic drag and drop function which is obviously hard to do with a joystick. It has to go. No other MechWarrior game ever needed such extreme measures to balance the Gauss Rifle. They just gave the Gauss a longer recharge than an AC20 and this was enough to consign the Gauss to non-brawling ranges. The same would be true in MWO. With the current 6 second total recycle it would never come close to the TTK that laser-vomit does right now so having players using the Gauss instead would extend matches.

The issue of 2xGauss would be better dealt with by having it cause a massive heat-spike.

Lore-wise Battle Tech's charge-up weapons do flat damage and extra damage if charged and the Gauss does not. If it keeps the charge-up that should be for a bonus damage option. I would be OK with the Gauss Rifle doing 12 damage if snap-fired and 16 damage if charged-up, but the charge-up should never be required to fire the Gauss Rifle. This would be much more dynamic and rewarding when a player pulled off the bonus damage shot!

It comes down to fear, not balance. Some people give in to fear of the arsenal that a battlemech can carry and some embrace the challenge. The trick is to know good challenging balance from fear of what players will do with it. Knowing this is vital to get the most out of the world that Battle Tech offers.


CryEngine itself is probably developed first and foremost for keyboards/mice, which makes MWO exactly that.

I'm not sure why they added the gauss charge mechanic in the first place though, is this something lore? It was probably just a nerf back in the old days. Not a direct nerf no, instead add an annoying mechanic that deprives people from using the weapon at all. I think it just split up the lower-end tier players and the higher-end because the weapon was about equally good after the added charge, but became more difficult to use properly.

Bad choice of PGI, they should just increased cooldown back in the day, or something.

Edited by MTs Cavia Porcellus, 13 January 2016 - 06:35 AM.


#66 cry-

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Posted 13 January 2016 - 09:51 AM

It was one of many nerfs for poptarts in the ppc/gauss era, but skilled players adapted quickly and it became just an added cooldown.

#67 Lightfoot

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Posted 13 January 2016 - 11:55 AM

View PostMTs Cavia Porcellus, on 13 January 2016 - 06:32 AM, said:


CryEngine itself is probably developed first and foremost for keyboards/mice, which makes MWO exactly that.

I'm not sure why they added the gauss charge mechanic in the first place though, is this something lore? It was probably just a nerf back in the old days. Not a direct nerf no, instead add an annoying mechanic that deprives people from using the weapon at all. I think it just split up the lower-end tier players and the higher-end because the weapon was about equally good after the added charge, but became more difficult to use properly.

Bad choice of PGI, they should just increased cooldown back in the day, or something.


MechWarrior was developed before the Cry Engine as a joystick game. You can't change that. MechWarrior is better with a joystick, but everyone can do as they like. You are just missing out on much more enjoyable gameplay. Joystick accuracy can be as good or better than with a mouse, but the mouse will always drag and drop files easily and the joystick will not. Drag and Drop is the mechanic given to the Gauss Rifle. If it held the charge for 2-3 seconds there would be no issue, but in it's current state it creates an uneven field of play.

Basically if no one uses the Gauss Rifle, it's fixed, working as intended I guess.

#68 Stingray Productions

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Posted 13 January 2016 - 12:49 PM

With enough practice it can still be volatile.

#69 ColdDarkness

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Posted 13 January 2016 - 02:41 PM

View PostDelpheus Merideus, on 09 January 2016 - 03:00 PM, said:


I did.


oh really? last time i checked, that video showed a direwolf that gets caught horribly out of position, miraculously survives, randomly INSTANTLY crippling mechs. for the rest of the game he literally does >nothing< and still has 480 damage, a kill, 6 component destruction to show for it.

and that in a match where the enemy team was not entirely ******** to run into his prefered attack areas.

your comparing a video of a roughly more even match with a video about stomping people to the ground because they decide to forgo their advantage and charge head on when it makes no sense to do so.
the problem i see is, that you propably do not recognize that misplay because you simply do not yet have enough experience to achieve the necessary situational awareness to make the call of when it is or is not wise to push.

btw: a video that is equally unrepresentative to the lrm videos you posted:


on a side note:

Quote

If anything, all ballistic weapons should have a velocity increase to be more realistic.


they are pretty realistic considering the size and type of the projectiles in question.
also: if you want to talk about realistic speeds, the missile and rocket based weaponry would be where speed would be increased. but that would be ******** balance wise if we brought those weapons to realistic levels.

and to the other guy:

Quote

Joystick accuracy can be as good or better than with a mouse, but the mouse will always drag and drop files easily and the joystick will not.


you are basically saying that you cannot use lasers with a joystick. they aim exactly like the gauss. the only difference is the point you are aiming at >long< ranges.

Edited by ColdDarkness, 13 January 2016 - 02:56 PM.


#70 Delpheus Merideus

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Posted 16 January 2016 - 02:27 PM

Here is another idea,
If gauss is to remain a sub-par backup weapon instead of a primary weapon, maybe the weight and slots should be reduced so that additional weaponry or equipment can be utilized. That way, gauss users are not completely ****** on DPS and can fire other weapons while their gauss takes an eternity to recharge.
We need something in return. You can't just castrate the gauss, make it useless, and leave it at that. We still need a reason to use it, even if that means making it a functional and reasonable supplementary weapon..

#71 Cold Darkness

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Posted 16 January 2016 - 03:42 PM

you can use a gauss as a main weapon. its just not meant to be a DPS weapon. which is what poptarts, hillhumpers and the whole peekaboo playstyle is all about.
if you are trying to out dps your target when on a gauss build, you may rethink your playstyle, it propably doesnt fit with your loadout.

#72 Delpheus Merideus

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Posted 16 January 2016 - 06:56 PM

View PostCold Darkness, on 16 January 2016 - 03:42 PM, said:

you can use a gauss as a main weapon. its just not meant to be a DPS weapon. which is what poptarts, hillhumpers and the whole peekaboo playstyle is all about.
if you are trying to out dps your target when on a gauss build, you may rethink your playstyle, it propably doesnt fit with your loadout.


What's the point of sniping with a gauss if every other sniping weapon and LRMS can do more damage faster than it can?
The solution is to replace the gauss with large lasers or LRMS. That's really all you can do at this point. If you try to outperform any non-gauss sniper, you will fail. 1.5 seconds is a lifetime in combat.

#73 Cold Darkness

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Posted 17 January 2016 - 01:33 AM

because gauss rifles
a ) do not have burn time, so your damage will be where you want it to be, hence less damage is necessary for the same effect. you can also fire and be back in cover in a brief moment.
b ) gauss rifles do not have counter equipment and do not spread by design

like i JUST wrote, if you want dps out of your gauss rifles, your playstyle does NOT fit with your loadout.
it kind of pains me to see lrms used in an argument for SNIPING. when lrms have an ENTIRELY different application.

the only weapon directly comparing to the gauss rifle is the er-ppc, and for its higher dps it pays with ridiculous heat/dmg and much worse accuracy due to projectile speed. it is also ALOT easier to see incomming PPCs.

Edited by Cold Darkness, 17 January 2016 - 01:33 AM.


#74 WANTED

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Posted 17 January 2016 - 05:36 AM

I like the charge on the gauss cause it gives me a second chance before wasting a round. I don't like the new cool down time. Russ just needs to to what he said and dial it back a bit on cool down and I bet it will help a lot.

#75 MechB Kotare

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Posted 17 January 2016 - 07:21 AM

View PostDelpheus Merideus, on 16 January 2016 - 06:56 PM, said:


What's the point of sniping with a gauss if every other sniping weapon and LRMS can do more damage faster than it can?
The solution is to replace the gauss with large lasers or LRMS. That's really all you can do at this point. If you try to outperform any non-gauss sniper, you will fail. 1.5 seconds is a lifetime in combat.


What the **** do you keep babling about? No other weapon but Gauss is capable if insta deliver 15 pinpoint damage at 600m. What other sniping weapons? You mean cERLL with its 1.5 beam duration? You have no freakin clue what you are talking about.

Any warrior with brain, especially gauss sniper gets behind a wall, building or a rock, once he is being targeted by LRMs. That makes LRMs useless against skilled players at Long range. There is no better sniping weapon than Gauss rifle. How is it possible that people running dual Gauss Dires are capable of doing 1000+ damage? Learn to play finally god damnit.

Edited by MechB Kotare, 17 January 2016 - 07:24 AM.


#76 MrElusive

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Posted 17 January 2016 - 02:20 PM

Yeah the nerf sucked and is stupid, I agree.

#77 Delpheus Merideus

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Posted 17 January 2016 - 08:01 PM

Are those gauss dire wolfs doing 1000 dmg after the patch? Doubtful.

When it comes back to the "take cover to avoid LRMs" debate people neglect to mention that LRMS can fire over terrain.

Gauss is a direct fire weapon that cannon arc over any kind of terrain.

I see it comes down to some people tend to be lazy, even in a video games, and want the simplest easy button there can be. They cry for nerfs to anything that challenges their playstyle. When skill trumps their easy button, they see imbalance. LRMs are the epitome of this easy button.

And I do agree that PPCs are a joke. They do need a velocity increase, they're a softball almost as easy to dodge as an AC.

Gauss was almost perfect right where it was and that's all I'm calling for, just take it back to the original cooldown and everything is fine... gauss can be used again.

Edited by Delpheus Merideus, 17 January 2016 - 08:02 PM.


#78 Cold Darkness

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 07:04 AM

View PostDelpheus Merideus, on 17 January 2016 - 08:01 PM, said:

Are those gauss dire wolfs doing 1000 dmg after the patch? Doubtful.

When it comes back to the "take cover to avoid LRMs" debate people neglect to mention that LRMS can fire over terrain.

Gauss is a direct fire weapon that cannon arc over any kind of terrain.

I see it comes down to some people tend to be lazy, even in a video games, and want the simplest easy button there can be. They cry for nerfs to anything that challenges their playstyle. When skill trumps their easy button, they see imbalance. LRMs are the epitome of this easy button.

And I do agree that PPCs are a joke. They do need a velocity increase, they're a softball almost as easy to dodge as an AC.

Gauss was almost perfect right where it was and that's all I'm calling for, just take it back to the original cooldown and everything is fine... gauss can be used again.


the irony is tremendous
you still fail to understand that the gauss rifle is even in its current state the easiest to aim weapon in the game. nothing else even comes close to its ease to use.

while lrms offer the option to fire above cover, that is limited by SEVERAL factors from differing arcs on certain range breakpoints to cover you simply cannot shoot above. also, invisible walls on certain maps that visually do not exist but block missiles (the desert map and grim portico are notable for that) and counter equipment like ams (which affects target choice and chain vs volleyfire) as well as ECM ( which affects target choice even more and makes you watch the movement of all enemy targets in the area you are attacking regardless of if they are even in a position you COULD attack or NOT) and not to forget: HARDCOUNTERING >modules<.
sure, one can stand back and randomly fire missiles and even score with that. the problem is: half the time you will NOT do well by default and MOST of the time you will not be a valuable asset to your team regardless of how well you do. to play an lrm boat decently, you have to be aware of much more things then you would have with a direct fire loadout. and there are enough countermechanics to counterbalance the indirect fire capacitys of LRMs.

meanwhile, you need an entirely DIFFERENT (different does not equal easier or harder, just different. that is important.) skillset for the other weapontypes and out of those skillsets, the gauss is the closest to the traditional FPS weapon (some people would argue that a laser, as a hitscan weapon, fits that role the most, but i disagree because it is actually harder to keep on target then to simply twitch your muscle when above desired target. at the very least that is how it was for me during my UT99 times).

every other ballistic (and ppc) weapon is HARDER TO USE because you have a) more easily visible and b )slower projectile(s) that c) deal less damage with the sole exception of the IS AC20 ( and i guess C-ERPPC which technically deals the same ammount of damage). the only drawback in handling for the gaussrifle to make up for all its advantages are its charge up time (which does not exactly change its handling as a twitchy weapon) and its lower dps. the lowered dps puts the gauss into its own role instead of making it a straight upgrade to every other ballistic (and ppc) in the game.

on a side note: considering that the dwf in the video ran out of ammunition, yes he would be able to deal the same damage after the changes. he would simply need 20 seconds longer to do so. yes, a whole 20 seconds. over the whole match. which is actually even less since he did use cover and backed of frequently (namely it summed up to 11 seconds). shocking and inconcievable for someone that argues that the gauss magically became a subpar weapon with an increase of cooldown.
but then again, the video is as representative as the lrm videos you posted - not at all representative.

Edited by Cold Darkness, 18 January 2016 - 07:09 AM.


#79 WANTED

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 02:27 PM

Well next patch it's official. Gauss reduced to 5.0 instead of 5.5 cool down.
So let's see how that plays out. Thanks Russ for adjusting this :)

#80 BigBenn

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 02:34 PM

I would have rather had them keep the 5.5 second cool down and REMOVE that assinine charge up.

With that kind of cool down time there is no reason to have a charge up.

How many mechs are using the gauss outside of the dual guass Dire Wolf and Jagermech???





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