949 replies to this topic

[Hotthedd]

Mystere, on 09 January 2016 - 07:21 PM, said:

It's too complicated. An "Enter at your own risk!" warning is plenty enough for me.

Ah, Mystere!

Isn't is obvious by now that everyone cannot be you.

[AEgg]

Sandpit, on 09 January 2016 - 04:38 PM, said:

yes you are
because that's exactly what your posts sound like. You're trying to paint myself and many others in this thread as something we're not.

I really, really don't follow you. Like, not even a bit. I genuinely thought you were replying to someone else with that last post and just forgot to quote it.

I'm not saying ANYTHING to suggest "us vs them". Where do you even get that from? It's a given that any group of ~8 or more will beat 12 randoms nine times out of ten, that's not being hostile, it's a simple truth.

What am I trying to portray "you" as? I haven't even said anything about ANYONE's behavior in this thread, or anywhere else as far as I recall.

Quote

You so tied up in the "us vs. them" mentality and propaganda that you're not bothering to actually read and contribute to threads that address many things you don't like in favor of just sticking with the "you're an evil boogeyman who likes to club seals"

take down the indignation a bit, sit back and do some reading, participate in the threads that have actual constructive ideas and solutions to issues in CW, MWO, NPE, etc.

What do you mean by this? How are other threads related at all? The discussion in this thread is about splitting queues, so that's what my posts relate to. Anything else would be off topic and belongs somewhere else.

Quote

When you start doing that I'll be more inclined to believe you're more altruistic than you appear to be now.

Because honestly, at this point, what you really sound like is a bitter solo or small unit player that's pissy about not being able now having a special queue just for you because it would improve CW for YOU.

Uhh, again, really don't follow. Why is it weird to think that it makes sense to match similar teams against each other when both sides are fielding them?

If there's twelve solos and a 12-man on both sides, do you really think it makes sense to match the twelve solos on one side against the 12-man from the other, giving all four groups bad games, rather than matching the groups and solos against each other? Isn't doing anything else basically having the matchmaker decide games for you rather than player skill?



Edit: I'm just guessing here since it's really hard to tell what was misinterpreted over the internet, but maybe I worded this poorly?

AEgg, on 09 January 2016 - 03:43 PM, said:

Ok, so give me a reason not to have split queues OTHER THAN the fact that it won't have a positive effect on you personally (given that implementation time is PGIs problem, not ours, and that we both agree it's not a valid idea with the current population).

I wasn't saying "splitting queues would be a negative for you but we should do it anyway", I was saying "splitting queues won't be a negative or positive for you, so why do you oppose it?" Lack of a positive effect does not mean there's a negative effect (and if there is one, I'd like to know what it is, that was my question in the first place).

Edited by AEgg, 09 January 2016 - 08:56 PM.

[Mystere]

Hotthedd, on 09 January 2016 - 08:09 PM, said:

Ah, Mystere!

Isn't is obvious by now that everyone cannot be you.

And that's the problem with humanity these days.

Adamski, on 09 January 2016 - 07:58 PM, said:

No, CW is supposed to be a GAME mode simulating war with a persistent map / objectives.

FTFY.

[Sandpit]

Adamski, on 09 January 2016 - 07:58 PM, said:

No, CW is supposed to be a GAME mode with a persistent map / objectives.

PGI disproved your war simulation hypothesis when they put in longer timers on ghost drops and put in the useless defense ghost drops to further penalize population disparity.

The difference between dropping solo in CW and dropping in a group is HUGE, and its not because comms make such a huge difference, but because requiring players to use the LFG tool or find the faction comms server weeds out the most useless of the underhive.

PGI disproved any and all of the knucklehead "pug solo QQ" stuff when they gave you a warning that specifically states, "Hey you, yea they player about to click faction play. Read this information. It's tough out there in CW. You're going to face some really good players who use a lot of teamwork and coordination and custom mechs. If you want to play under those rules, have fun and come on in. Otherwise, pub matches might be better to your liking"

Guess what that means regarding any arguments of "Well PGI's vision" etc.?

[Sandpit]

AEgg, on 09 January 2016 - 08:44 PM, said:

I really, really don't follow you. Like, not even a bit. I genuinely thought you were replying to someone else with that last post and just forgot to quote it.

I'm not saying ANYTHING to suggest "us vs them". Where do you even get that from? It's a given that any group of ~8 or more will beat 12 randoms nine times out of ten, that's not being hostile, it's a simple truth.

What am I trying to portray "you" as? I haven't even said anything about ANYONE's behavior in this thread, or anywhere else as far as I recall.



What do you mean by this? How are other threads related at all? The discussion in this thread is about splitting queues, so that's what my posts relate to. Anything else would be off topic and belongs somewhere else.



Uhh, again, really don't follow. Why is it weird to think that it makes sense to match similar teams against each other when both sides are fielding them?

If there's twelve solos and a 12-man on both sides, do you really think it makes sense to match the twelve solos on one side against the 12-man from the other, giving all four groups bad games, rather than matching the groups and solos against each other? Isn't doing anything else basically having the matchmaker decide games for you rather than player skill?



Edit: I'm just guessing here since it's really hard to tell what was misinterpreted over the internet, but maybe I worded this poorly?

I wasn't saying "splitting queues would be a negative for you but we should do it anyway", I was saying "splitting queues won't be a negative or positive for you, so why do you oppose it?" Lack of a positive effect does not mean there's a negative effect (and if there is one, I'd like to know what it is, that was my question in the first place).

The point of this is that the whole "premade" "group" "12man" separate me so they don't play me or new players or whoever is irrelevant because as has been pointed numerous times by myself and many many MANY others over the years is that it's got absolutely NOTHING to do with the disparities in scores and game play experience.

[Sandpit]

spectralthundr, on 09 January 2016 - 10:15 PM, said:

Instead of whining about it perhaps those people who take such an issue with it, either join a unit, or use the tools available like House TS'es and LFG tools to actually get in groups where that isn't going to happen in what is the GROUP mode of MWO.

It's apparently easier to say "I don't wanna." and "Give me a special queue instead even though it's much easier to do as you suggested"

[Mystere]

Fen Tetsudo, on 09 January 2016 - 11:25 PM, said:

Just make the queques on the planet screen visible to both sides.

Finally you have a suggestion I can almost agree to, except ...

Unfortunately, that too can be abused. Good teams can be forced to ghost drop by being avoided by everybody, units and solos alike.

So my verdict is "no" for that suggestion.

[Mystere]

Fen Tetsudo, on 09 January 2016 - 11:25 PM, said:

Spawncamping new players in trial mechs is not "hard mode". You guys need to stop using that term, esp if what Russ said about the larger teams deliberately avoiding each other turns out to be true.

Frankly, if Russ is going to spit out such a highly-charged accusation, he should have provided proof. Unless of course he really did not have any. In which case, he is just looking like he is pandering to a certain whiny segment of the player base.

[Deathlike]

Fen Tetsudo, on 09 January 2016 - 11:25 PM, said:

Let the newbies play the game. Again, you are playing with strawmen. Resisting the "hardcore" urge to spawncamp newbies in trial mechs does not have to include "losing on purpose" or "ejecting". Why do you keep making these silly arguments instead of simply agreeing that spawncamping newbies in trial mechs is stupid because it runs off the new players we will need to keep CW alive?

That's a core error in logic.

CW is akin to having the Olympics (although I'm sure someone will use a Special Olympics reference to derail the thread).

Olympics Trials exist to filter out competitors.. technically I guess it is open to everyone (I'm unsure, someone let me know whether this is the case), but you have to reach a certain score/level to be accepted into the real deal.

In MWO, there is nothing barring ANY player from joining... which mostly a core issue. There's a clear difference what a "competent player" is in MWO. In many instances... they are generally not new players nor players that simply do not wish to work with a team. These players are simply not capable of being in CW, and are not the primary "competitors" for this mode. In most instances, a competent team that may be losing will rarely reach the spawn camping phase in the early rounds. It's preventable if the players are competent. There are rarely any exceptions here.

Adding some sort of MM/segregation is akin to having a "handicap" (like the kind used in Golf). While it sounds like it would "even things out", the reality is that many players that play CW expecting "help".. this is actually supposed to be in the form of teammates (whether they are in units or not) and actually working together. You can pick your teammates and that's better than knowing who your opponents are (because some people actually intentionally ragequit CW matches for that reason alone).

The reality is that "seal clubbing" happens is when the people participating in CW don't realize "they are the seals" because they do very little in contributing any attempt at a win. If you're not doing whatever it takes to get better at the game and work as a team, you literally have no right to complain about losing.

[Sandpit]

Fen Tetsudo, on 09 January 2016 - 11:25 PM, said:

Nope. But neither does "show me on the doll where the 12-man touched you" have any relevance to what I have said. You want to have a civil conversation, then try to have one. Don't insult me and then whine when I insult you back.




Let the newbies play the game. Again, you are playing with strawmen. Resisting the "hardcore" urge to spawncamp newbies in trial mechs does not have to include "losing on purpose" or "ejecting". Why do you keep making these silly arguments instead of simply agreeing that spawncamping newbies in trial mechs is stupid because it runs off the new players we will need to keep CW alive?



Yup, most my drops are that way too. Cool story bro. But I was talking about vets spawncamping new players in trial mechs. Maybe one day you'll figure out a way to respond to what I have actually said.




Nope. Again, I'm not talking about seal clubbing, I'm talking about vets spawncamping noobs in trial mechs. You can roll newbies 48-0 without camping their spawn.




Of course not. If they are hiding in their drop zone, go in and kill them all. Otherwise, give them a chance to form up and push out. It will cost you maybe 2 mins time and you'll still get all your rewards. Difference is, by letting them play the game they are more likely to stick around and join a team, get on faction comms, put together a decent drop deck, and all that other stuff.

They won't do that if they are routinely waiting 20 mins to play only to have their 3rd and 4th mech destroyed before it even lands. They will say "this is stupid" and uninstall.




That takes time to find, learn and do, and CW doesn't have it. Not when you are running them out of the game by spawncamping their 3rd and 4th mechs. You need to keep the new steam crowd around long enough to do that, instead of running them off. Let them play the game and they will be more likely to stick around and join a team, get on faction comms, put together a decent drop deck, etc.




Just make the queques on the planet screen visible to both sides. That way, new players who want to avoid premades can do so. Premades that claim stomping noobs is boring can find drops against other premades. We already do this to some extent - I try to find a drop with premades in que rather than a dozen solos, because I know the odds are I'm likely to get a more organized team.




Yes, but if you don't do something now you will lose the new influx of players and wait times will increase even further, and it will be permanent. You understand there is not another Steam release right? This is the last major influx of new players.




Spawncamping new players in trial mechs is not "hard mode". You guys need to stop using that term, esp if what Russ said about the larger teams deliberately avoiding each other turns out to be true. The "hardcore" rejoinder has become a punch line. Do you get that? That when people like you say "CW is hardcore", the rest of us just laugh and roll our eyes?



Whining and crying? Oh, I see, you're trying to puff up and be insulting again... Do you think it makes you come off as intimidating or something? LOL. This is about basic sportsmanship towards new players so that we can bring them into CW and keep it running. Please go stroke your epeen somewhere else.

all I'm going to say is that if you really aren't trying to say those things, that's how it's coming across.

I dont' know if it's miscommunication, misunderstanding, etc. but just about everything your'e saying is coming across like the following

PUGs and/or solo players are drooling morons who can't read a warning
Anyone not wanting separate queues is some sort of evil big unit just wanting to club seals
Solo players need to be "protected" from other players for some reason


That's really what it sounds like you're getting at with a lot of your arguments. I'm not being facetious or attacking you here, I'm simply trying to point out that after 3 years some of us are kinda tired of listening to the reason some players consistently lose is premades.

The players sitting here trying to tell you and the others like that all you really have to do to be more successful in CW is quite simply use in game VOIP, work together, and use faction chat.

That's all there really is to it. I don't care how you try to spin it, how you try to look at it, how you try to sensationalize it, that's all it is.

Those taht are stubborn, hard-headed, downright beligerent sometimes at the "gall" of someone giving "orders" (IE someone simply trying to help direct traffic so the team knows where to shoot) and continue trying to push PGI to make CW "easier" continue to deny these simple strategies, techniques, tools, and advice that would increase their win and CW experience overall are on their own by their own choice.

If they want to play like that there are perfectly good, functioning, enabled, etc. public queues to drop in where you don't have to worry about those "pesky" premades.

Stop thinking that the entire game and every feature, mode, etc. should revolve exclusively around that specific player. DO you see a single "CW groups are good" type player suggesting they switch the pub queues?
No you do not

Want to know why? Because they know that that particular queue and mode are exclusively for those players and notice that there's only one group of players here trying to restrict even further and segregate even further the player populations in the name of "seal clubbing"


Use your VOIP
Use your faction chat
Use teamwork

Plain and simple

If you cannot, will not, don't, use those two simple things then CW very plainly and simply is not the game mode you're looking for.

Edited by Sandpit, 09 January 2016 - 11:57 PM.

[B0oN]

LöL

37 pages of "Teamwork is OP,nerf plox"

Shame ...

You guys should have used that time wasted in here to grind some mechs and modules while having an eye out for your faction´s TS hub (YES ! There are people so effing generous that they made TS servers for their factions, O M G, can you believe that? ) and maybe some mechbuilds besides ALL that already "gigantic" workload .

So, basically, there is a sizeable amount of absolute misanthropes out there, or am I getting your absolutely resolute refusal of any and all effort towards using the already built-in social functions and the generously provided locations of social meeting points (aka Faction Hub TS) in a gamemode that is designed and intended for large unit warfare wrong ?

And please, don´t insult my intelligence by bringing the "oh, but I´ve family!" argument, because it is a STRAWMAN .
Use a headset to not disturb people sleeping ...and for god´s sake : Check those audio levels (ingame master @1.0/all FX on 0.1 ...uhh the quietness and sudden clarity when your ears are not permanently bomarded at high SPL-levels, and all of a sudden you can turn down TS a notch as well ... so you can hear your wifeys/kids/henchmen calling) ... you might wanna lower them, so you DONT NEED TO SHOUT TO HEAR YOURSELF (I´ve bee living with my brother these last 6 years, and the walls of our flat are as thin as toiletpaper, yet the incidents of me waking him up are pretty scarce) .

Really, guys, all I see is plain, flat-out refusal mixed with a pretty unhealthy dose of antisocial behviour and misanthropy .

Yuck .

If you guys still wanna jump over your own shadows and try out some CW :
Go to your respective faction hubs and finally show up there, YOU ARE MISSING THERE, did you know that ?

It´s on all of YOUSES to prevent seal-clubbing, as y´all sooooo eloquently named it .


And with that said, this harmless kitten goes back to playing with it´s beloved yarnballs .

[Sandpit]

Rad Hanzo, on 10 January 2016 - 12:26 AM, said:

You guys should have used that time wasted in here to grind some mechs and modules while having an eye out for your faction´s TS hub (YES ! There are people so effing generous that they made TS servers for their factions, O M G, can you believe that? ) and maybe some mechbuilds besides ALL that already "gigantic" workload .

exactly!
which is why this kind of rhetoric ticks me off personally so much.
Those big bad boogeyman units "seal clubbing" are the units paying money out of our own pockets to provide players with fun and friendly areas to congregate and meet other players and enjoy a common form of entertainment in this video game.

Yea we REALLY prosper by driving players away and trying to dwindle the player population that has fun playing a game we all love and enjoy...

[spectralthundr]

Sandpit, on 10 January 2016 - 01:15 AM, said:

exactly!
which is why this kind of rhetoric ticks me off personally so much.
Those big bad boogeyman units "seal clubbing" are the units paying money out of our own pockets to provide players with fun and friendly areas to congregate and meet other players and enjoy a common form of entertainment in this video game.

Yea we REALLY prosper by driving players away and trying to dwindle the player population that has fun playing a game we all love and enjoy...

It's also why it bothers me as much as it does too. All because there's those who want their hand held in gaming. That politically correct culture has gotten to the point that it needs to poison the well of everything it touches is quite frankly nauseating.

Pic somewhat related because it sums up my reaction to special little snowflakes perfectly.

[MechWarrior3671771]

Rad Hanzo, on 10 January 2016 - 12:26 AM, said:

You guys should have used that time wasted in here to grind some mechs and modules while having an eye out for your faction´s TS hub (YES ! There are people so effing generous that they made TS servers for their factions, O M G, can you believe that? ) and maybe some mechbuilds besides ALL that already "gigantic" workload .

Yawn. Already doing that. Have you heard of multitasking? Most my posts are made while waiting to drop.

Besides, your are speaking to the wrong people. I know, I know, you wanted to give your great L2P speech and bask in your awesomesauce, but the people you are talking about aren't here. They are on Steam trying out a different game.

[Satan n stuff]

Hotthedd, on 09 January 2016 - 07:03 PM, said:

Actually I had a post about a month ago that spelled my position out more clearly.

I think a graduated scale would work quite well:
Tier 1 - drop in any mechs you want (including 4 trials), and can solo CW
Tier 2 - limited to 3 trial mechs, can solo CW
Tier 3 - May use 2 trial mechs if grouped, 1 if solo
Tier 4 - May use 1 trial mech, must be in a group of 2 or more
Tier 5 - May use 1 trial mech, must be in group of at least 4.

This would promote team play, and lessen the chance of being spawn camped.

So we wouldn't be able to do any training drops until the newbies have at least 2-3 mechs, right...
Sorry but that's just not going to work.

[Sandpit]

Fen Tetsudo, on 10 January 2016 - 03:04 AM, said:

Yawn. Already doing that. Have you heard of multitasking? Most my posts are made while waiting to drop.

Besides, your are speaking to the wrong people. I know, I know, you wanted to give your great L2P speech and bask in your awesomesauce, but the people you are talking about aren't here. They are on Steam trying out a different game.

get over yourself

[Hotthedd]

Satan n stuff, on 10 January 2016 - 03:41 AM, said:

So we wouldn't be able to do any training drops until the newbies have at least 2-3 mechs, right...
Sorry but that's just not going to work.

That is a good point, and one that I had not considered.

Luckily, I do not make the rules

So, in order to make it work, it could be modified. For example: If a new player is in a unit (tagged), then a full trial deck could be used IF in a in group of at least 4?, 6?
That would allow training of a brand new player, without letting a brand new player solo CW.

It does not really matter WHAT the barriers to CW are, as long as it solves the problems.

[AEgg]

Sandpit, on 09 January 2016 - 09:46 PM, said:

The point of this is that the whole "premade" "group" "12man" separate me so they don't play me or new players or whoever is irrelevant because as has been pointed numerous times by myself and many many MANY others over the years is that it's got absolutely NOTHING to do with the disparities in scores and game play experience.

I don't really see how you can believe that. Match a 12-man against 12 solos, you'll see the same result nearly every time. Does it really matter why that happens? Sure, it's not entirely the fact that one side is grouped that makes them win, but whatever the cause is, a large group wins against randoms nearly every time.

If you want to argue that it's because the solos are bad, sure, go ahead, I won't even dispute that for the most part, but that doesn't change the fact that most of the time it's not going to be a good match for either side, and there's an easy way to avoid that and make things better for everyone.

We have two substantially different groups in CW (at least during events, when people actually play it), groups and solos, and for the most part, matching them against each other results in stomps. As far as I can tell most groups actually want to play against groups, and most solos want to play against solos, so why not indulge them rather than just making it luck of the draw?

[DiabetesOverlord Wilford Brimley]

The blood sugar levels in this thread are too high. Have you called Liberty yet? It could save your life, but not CW.

[B0oN]

I´m awesomesauce ?

Kewl, thanks for the compliment, man, that runs down like oil, Fen Tetsudo-san .
Feels nearly as good as getting called a cheater

But since you already socialise as far as this game allows to, how the heck do you even feel spoken to ?


Oh, and 12man premade vs. 12 solos ?
Depends on the cohesion, communication and skill level of both sides still .

Edited by Rad Hanzo, 10 January 2016 - 02:47 PM.