949 replies to this topic

[JaxRiot]

Hotthedd, on 07 January 2016 - 10:55 AM, said:

You are a reasonable debater JaxRiot, and I like that about you too.

My analogy was about "wants" and "desires". Just because I want <insert here>, does not mean I can just demand <insert here>. Whatever the "want" is: Playing in the N.F.L., playing competitively in a video game, having Cindy Crawford leave her husband and run away with me, etc., does not matter.

IF I desired to try out for an N.F.L. team, I would have to make some life changing choices. I would FIRST assess the things I would need to do to make it. Then, I would decide if the changes I would need to make were worth it. If not, I must learn to live without it. If I CHOSE to go down that path, I would know the consequences of that choice. In the above case, I would choose not to, even though it would be super cool if I could.

IF I want to pug in CW, (which I do 99% of the time) I need to be aware that I might face the 228th I.B.R. in a full 12 man (again). If that is the choice I make, I live with it. In THIS example I would choose to, because even if we get spawn-camped, I can do well, and even try to improve some things and learn, and no matter what happens, it is better than being body slammed by J.J. Watt

Bottom line: Nobody really needs to be coddled. It is bad for the game, and ultimately it short changes the player.

I agree that players should make a choice. I made the choice long ago that CW wasnt for me. The Pug experience didnt really work, and Im not interested in joining a Unit, so I just stay away from it.

My own choice and I think everyone will eventually make that choice too.

My problem is that with all of these new players coming in, and chances are there will be a steady stream of new players coming in with Steam, is that they will do like I did and try CW.

Despite the warning, they are going to want to see what it is about and get creamed in thier Trial Mechs, kind of like they are now.

So as one new player decides that CW isnt for them, or decides to join a Unit, there is another coming in behind him that hasnt made that choice yet, and is going to get himself and his trial mechs creamed.

So what happens is that there will be a never ending stream of easily farmed Pugs for the Units.

The Units will claim that CW is for Competitive Play and the Pugs get what they deserve for setting foot on their turf, but any actual competitive environment wouldnt allow for such lopsided match ups in the first place and anyone who truly wants actual competition would not support such a unfair match ups.

So I absolutely agree with you that people need to make a choice, and I strongly suspect they each individual will make their choice sooner or later.

But its the steady flow of new people that havnt made that choice yet that are paying the price.

Which is what I think the Units want. A steady stream daily sacrifices while standing on their soap boxes yelling "get good or get out because this is Competitive Play".... as they farm noobies in trial mechs.

And for the Record- I would rather get hit by a bus that JJ Watt. Hes scary

[Almond Brown]

MischiefSC, on 07 January 2016 - 12:21 PM, said:

Look. People want to play new content. Trying to force/trick/coerce people to play what/how they ddon't want never works well in games.

I want them to play and have fun. I dont want people who just want to pug in CW. We joke about stomps but thats screwing the faction the suicide pugs were playing for.

You want people to play the gamemodes at their own pace. The people who want hardcore mode and everthing that entails, like being part of a faction in a big conflict, great. Come to CW. PGI needs to make cw fun and have a point in its own right.

That is not what my Post said though. Giving them, the PUG group, the same stuff as CW but in PUG, does nothing to encourage Pugs to play CW, at all. CW needs the Population, Pug town doe s not.

And what if they have FUN playing CW despite losing more than winning? You can't allow them that though as it ***** over your "factions" ability to have their fun"? OK then. Keep the PUGs out and hope there are enough players left to allow factions to do faction stuff... good luck with that btw...

[pwnface]

JaxRiot, on 08 January 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:

The Units will claim that CW is for Competitive Play and the Pugs get what they deserve for setting foot on their turf, but any actual competitive environment wouldnt allow for such lopsided match ups in the first place and anyone who truly wants actual competition would not support such a unfair match ups.

Actually, the bar for "competitive" play in CW is really quite low. You don't have to have a group of super elite try-hards to have a good time in CW. When people want real "competitive" play they do leagues, scrimmages, or tourneys. Community Warfare is mostly a playground where "competitive" means everyone walk in the same gate at the same time.

I could drop call Kurita pick up groups and win probably 80-90% of matches in CW and with the same team lose 100% of matches with the same players in a real competitive setting.

Seals only get clubbed in CW because they are unwilling to listen to people that know what they are doing. You know why getting in teamspeak is a huge advantage over in-game VOIP? In teamspeak you can talk to players before a match and people are more likely to listen to calls. Using in game VOIP to drop call PUG groups is typically a painful exercise in futility. Simple things like "don't stream in after you die" seems to just encourage rambo solo PUG players even more. There is absolutely no reason for players to lose all 4 mechs before some players have even lost their 1st.

Edited by pwnface, 08 January 2016 - 09:26 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Sandpit, on 07 January 2016 - 12:29 PM, said:

yes because I have any control over what other players do. SO I can either sit back, not do it, sacrifice my exp and cbills. (which if you finish a match early is extremely low and I personally don't think it's fair to me to spend that much time into getting a match just to end it early to spare the "feelings" of another player and earn a very miniscule amount of cbills comparatively)

My altruism only goes so far

Omg! So they (Pug Team) "suck" and you (7-11/12 man) "stomp" them. They complain about Spawn camping, but they "suck" so need to get better, but they can't as they get Spawn camped all the time... Seeing the circular mess in all that?

I hear the music playing and see a bunch of chairs. The music will soon stop so get ready to grab a chair. Someone is going to left out of that one as well.

[Almond Brown]

pwnface, on 07 January 2016 - 12:33 PM, said:

Eh, from his past posts he seems to think it's everyone's personal and moral responsibility to make sure everyone has a good time in CW.

How does that saying go again "If you are not part of the solution..." but no worries. Those who want to really play CW don't need any new players right? Least of all any who might actually catch on given even a slight chance. LOL!

As always, the actual CW community will be the death of their game mode. The irony is almost palpable.

Edited by Almond Brown, 08 January 2016 - 09:28 AM.

[pwnface]

Almond Brown, on 08 January 2016 - 09:24 AM, said:

Omg! So they (Pug Team) "suck" and you (7-11/12 man) "stomp" them. They complain about Spawn camping, but they "suck" so need to get better, but they can't as they get Spawn camped all the time... Seeing the circular mess in all that?

I hear the music playing and see a bunch of chairs. The music will soon stop so get ready to grab a chair. Someone is going to left out of that one as well.

You know you can't get spawn camped in quick play right? That's where new players should practice before jumping into CW.
If you are getting farmed every time you drop against a team, even the not so good ones, there is really only one person you can blame.

[pwnface]

Almond Brown, on 08 January 2016 - 09:27 AM, said:

How does that saying go again "If you are not part of the solution..." but no worries. Those who want to really play CW don't need any new players right? Least of all any who might actually catch on given even a slight chance. LOL!

As always, the actual CW community will be the death of their game mode. The irony is almost palpable.

The solution isn't to put on your baby handling gloves and take things easy on your opponents. The solution is to get new players who don't know what they are doing to:

a ) Play more "quick play" matches until they know what they are doing and have appropriate mechs.
b ) Join their faction hub teamspeak and coordinate with other players.
c ) Join a unit.

I encourage PUG players to do b ) or c ) all the time. I can only show them the door, they need to open it.

Edited by pwnface, 08 January 2016 - 09:34 AM.

[Hotthedd]

For me, at least, it is NOT about PuGs. I almost exclusively drop solo since almost everyone in my unit got bored with MW:O and plays other games. Even if just for the numbers to fill out teams, CW needs solos.

No, it is about new players not having the basic experience and tools that SHOULD be necessary before joining in on CW. For those players, soloing CW should not be an option. Sorry.

A single warning will not deter people, there needs to be a barrier. That barrier should promote 2 things: Group play and experience.

[Almond Brown]

pwnface, on 08 January 2016 - 09:30 AM, said:

You know you can't get spawn camped in quick play right? That's where new players should practice before jumping into CW.
If you are getting farmed every time you drop against a team, even the not so good ones, there is really only one person you can blame.

I am just speaking from the "big picture view" here is all. I play CW and very rarely do the Teams I PUG with get Spawn Camped. Yes, it has happened but its happening was seen coming. The only difference vs PUG is that you have to suffer through 4 deaths instead of just one before getting to try it again...

If you want them to train "outside" of CW then how do they get a 4-Mech Drop Deck? Not in PUG they can't so no way to understand the synergy of that Decks make up.

Or are you offering the PUG's in Pug land the Maps and a 4-Mech Drop deck too now?

[Almond Brown]

pwnface, on 08 January 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

The solution isn't to put on your baby handling gloves and take things easy on your opponents. The solution is to get new players who don't know what they are doing to:

a ) Play more "quick play" matches until they know what they are doing and have appropriate mechs.
b ) Join their faction hub team speak and coordinate with other players.
c ) Join a unit.

I encourage PUG players to do b ) or c ) all the time. I can only show them the door, they need to open it.

Very true and kind of you, but you cannot "force them" to do anything and telling to stay away until they meet some BS standard that you/anyone else has set for them just does 1 of 2 things.

1) New players figures well can't handle that, so I'm out.
2) Tell me what I can and cannot do? F you all, and trolls for fun knowing how pissed off it makes those who set "a acceptable standard" for others.

Neither option seems to fit the current needs of the CW Community does it? Same as your 3 options don't fit with many who will play anyway they want.

[pwnface]

Almond Brown, on 08 January 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

Very true and kind of you, but you cannot "force them" to do anything and telling to stay away until they meet some BS standard that you/anyone else has set for them just does 1 of 2 things.

1) New players figures well can't handle that, so I'm out.
2) Tell me what I can and cannot do? F you all, and trolls for fun knowing how pissed off it makes those who set "a acceptable standard" for others.

Neither option seems to fit the current needs of the CW Community does it? Same as your 3 options don't fit with many who will play anyway they want.

You are right of course, I can't force other players to do anything.

At the same time, I'm not obligated to be nice or take it easy on other players because they are unwilling to do what it takes to win or at least put up a decent fight.

If you are a new player in CW and are unwilling to listen or learn at all, then goodbye. We're better off without them. We need less mindless lemmings in CW.

[MischiefSC]

oldradagast, on 08 January 2016 - 04:26 AM, said:

Nobody is denying that CW is an "anything goes" format, though I get a sad laugh out of the people who think expecting a fair and balanced GAME is "being a wuss." Again, this is a GAME, not real life, and it's not as if people are expecting to be paid for playing CW in "wuss" mode or some idiocy.

So, yeah - "hard-core" mode, with ghost drops, seal-clubbing, and no match-maker. Sure... except it is NOT FUN. That's the key point. Standing around commenting on how "hard-core" it all is, or how "everyone should join a team and git gud or git rekted." contributes nothing to the discussion. I'm not singling out this poster, specifically, but rather everyone who is defending the current failure with either simple statements of fact - "CW is hard mode" - or expectations that basic human nature will change to match CW - "people need to learn to enjoy unbalanced games, join teams, and start playing MWO as a second job."

No. In its current form, CW is an utter failure. We all know why - it's been discussed hundreds of times on these forums alone - so defending it and expecting everything else to change so we can avoid changing CW is just plain absurd at this point.

If it's not fun for you, that's fine. I pug almost exclusively in CW and I find it way more fun than pug queue. I don't enjoy pug queue, I find it pretty dull and pointless and it provides no impetus at all to improve.

The problem is that you think your opinion represents anyone but yourself and so seek to remove any choices or options for anyone who doesn't want to agree with you.

CW has a pretty healthy population right now. I find drops on all CF. If you don't like it, don't play it. Trying to destroy CW because you want it to be just like pug/group queue is the worst possible approach.

It's a GAME. Not all GAMES are designed to make sure everyone gets a trophy just for showing up. Some games are harder than other. Indeed some leagues in games are harder than others. Most sports have a level of competition where you really shouldn't show up to play if you're not up for it and if you do, you're going to get beaten very badly. You can either not show up or work to compete at that level.

[Ratpoison]

No matchmaking, no mercy. Coordinate with your faction or underperform and die. That is how it is and should be.

[Johnny Z]

MischiefSC, on 08 January 2016 - 04:48 PM, said:

If it's not fun for you, that's fine. I pug almost exclusively in CW and I find it way more fun than pug queue. I don't enjoy pug queue, I find it pretty dull and pointless and it provides no impetus at all to improve.

The problem is that you think your opinion represents anyone but yourself and so seek to remove any choices or options for anyone who doesn't want to agree with you.

CW has a pretty healthy population right now. I find drops on all CF. If you don't like it, don't play it. Trying to destroy CW because you want it to be just like pug/group queue is the worst possible approach.

It's a GAME. Not all GAMES are designed to make sure everyone gets a trophy just for showing up. Some games are harder than other. Indeed some leagues in games are harder than others. Most sports have a level of competition where you really shouldn't show up to play if you're not up for it and if you do, you're going to get beaten very badly. You can either not show up or work to compete at that level.

Exactly. I am all for where faction play is going and I rarely even drop faction now. Waiting for the big update.

Until there is some depth and meaning and goals to the battles and great rewards and penalties its not even half a game mode or strategy game or what ever.

This current faction wars is nothing but a bunch of new systems they got up and running and missing half or maybe a lot more than half its content.

Phase 3 will likely be similar in MechWarrior adding a lot of new systems and still light on the content side.

I think they are going super slow with it but then I know nothing about making 20 or so new systems in an online game....

I also think this game is missing a lot of other content and features to be complete that hasn't even been mentioned. Sort of off topic but is related to content.

[pwnface]

tortuousGoddess, on 08 January 2016 - 04:50 PM, said:

No matchmaking, no mercy. Coordinate with your faction or underperform and die. That is how it is and should be.

This should be the CW mantra:

No matchmaker. No mercy. Coordinate or die.

[MechWarrior3671771]

That would be fine is CW had a vibrant population. Its doesn't. Enjoy all your hardcore ghost drops

[Deathlike]

pwnface, on 08 January 2016 - 04:56 PM, said:

This should be the CW mantra:

No matchmaker. No mercy. Coordinate or die.

Dear Coordinator approves.

Fen Tetsudo, on 08 January 2016 - 05:10 PM, said:

That would be fine is CW had a vibrant population. Its doesn't. Enjoy all your hardcore ghost drops

You're mistaking correlation with causation.

Noone likes Ghost Drops... but it has less to do with population... it's the Ghost Drop mechanic itself.

Edited by Deathlike, 08 January 2016 - 05:13 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Deathlike, on 08 January 2016 - 05:12 PM, said:

Dear Coordinator approves.



You're mistaking correlation with causation.

Noone likes Ghost Drops... but it has less to do with population... it's the Ghost Drop mechanic itself.

Woah. The Matrix leet speak is trippin me out.

[MechWarrior3671771]

Deathlike, on 08 January 2016 - 05:12 PM, said:

You're mistaking correlation with causation.

Not really. If the CW population falls to x% of the playerbase, what incentive does PGI have to roll out CW improvements? I think you have one shot with them too, and Russ already feels you are "shortcutting the complexity you asked for". If I were him, I'd be really annoyed.

I think you'll get one chance at that too. Keep running off new players, and PGI will refocus their time and energy on Quickplay. Maybe they will let you convert your LPs to something useful.

Edited by Fen Tetsudo, 08 January 2016 - 05:19 PM.

[Bonger Bob]

Hotthedd, on 08 January 2016 - 04:36 AM, said:

I have read every post in this thread, and from what I understand nobody is defending CW as a "good game mode". As a matter of fact, I think the need to fundamentally change CW is the one thing both sides actually AGREE on.

As I see it, the main argument seems to be over HOW things need to change. One side wanting to make CW more new player friendly, and accomplish that by either changing the behavior of hundreds of players or creating a new player kiddie pool, and the other side wanting to have a barrier for entry into the deep end, and have PGI create that barrier.

The way SOME ( note i didn't say ALL ) of the "team" players have represented themselves here and in CW makes me seriously question which is the actual kiddie pool of players, the action of most teams against pugs in CW have not been those of mature adults.

Hotthedd, on 08 January 2016 - 09:45 AM, said:

For me, at least, it is NOT about PuGs. I almost exclusively drop solo since almost everyone in my unit got bored with MW:O and plays other games. Even if just for the numbers to fill out teams, CW needs solos.

No, it is about new players not having the basic experience and tools that SHOULD be necessary before joining in on CW. For those players, soloing CW should not be an option. Sorry.

A single warning will not deter people, there needs to be a barrier. That barrier should promote 2 things: Group play and experience.

well, i can at least agree with you on one thing " soloing CW should not be an option ".

If only a barrier was what the teams wanted for CW, quite the opposite though from most of the "join a team or get used to being farmed" people. They're afraid of losing seal clubbing and ending up with a true competitive game mode. They want pugs to be able to line up for the slaughter. You worded it well with stating the FACT that CW needs solo's.

Personally Id welcome either, make it separate ques so that its pug friendly OR put hard stops in place to force non team tag players to not even be able to enter the mode.

So seal club teams, you can't have it both ways, accept it, let pugs into an even field for "your hard mode", or accept that they need to be locked out, the feeding rounds WILL end though and it won't be through everyone joining a team.