949 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

pwnface, on 08 January 2016 - 09:19 AM, said:

Actually, the bar for "competitive" play in CW is really quite low. You don't have to have a group of super elite try-hards to have a good time in CW. When people want real "competitive" play they do leagues, scrimmages, or tourneys. Community Warfare is mostly a playground where "competitive" means everyone walk in the same gate at the same time.

I could drop call Kurita pick up groups and win probably 80-90% of matches in CW and with the same team lose 100% of matches with the same players in a real competitive setting.

Seals only get clubbed in CW because they are unwilling to listen to people that know what they are doing. You know why getting in teamspeak is a huge advantage over in-game VOIP? In teamspeak you can talk to players before a match and people are more likely to listen to calls. Using in game VOIP to drop call PUG groups is typically a painful exercise in futility. Simple things like "don't stream in after you die" seems to just encourage rambo solo PUG players even more. There is absolutely no reason for players to lose all 4 mechs before some players have even lost their 1st.

What really pisses me off is how absolutely stubborn about being bad most the people who get 'clubbed' are. Refuse to play with the team, wander off alone, won't drop in waves, they just want to play CW like pug queue.

So they lose. Repeatedly and brutally. They get their team stomped because they are so actively, intentionally worthless.

THAT is the issue. Davion wins the bulk of their matches I've been in when they drop in a group. Mixed teams, lots of new players, some LRMs here and there, we are absolutely NOT talking a group of comp tier players in full meta. The last drop I played we won and for giggles we ran 1 wave of SRM mechs, cuz SRMs go BOOM.

It's not that hard to play well in CW. It's really not. You can do it in Trials, you can do it as an inexperienced player and you can put up a really good fight in 80% of your matches. Sure, comp tier organized teams will roll you but that happens regardless.

The issue is people who want to play CW like pug queue and fail horribly and the response is to cry to make CW work like pug queue.

NO. EFF YOU SEE KAY NO. The Office 'NO!' gif sort of no. We had a mixed group/pug queue originally and now we have a dedicated, curated pug queue. There's no reason to drop the same load on CW. The whole point of CW is it's a very different game experience than pug/group queue.

This is a side effect of having a less forgiving game environment in the same game with a curated pug-centric game environment. You get out of the kiddie pool and it's brutal, so the desire is to hammer everything down to the lowest, easiest denominator.

[Deathlike]

Fen Tetsudo, on 08 January 2016 - 05:18 PM, said:

Not really. If the CW population falls to x% of the playerbase, what incentive does PGI have to roll out CW improvements? I think you have one shot with them too, and Russ already feels you are "shortcutting the complexity you asked for". If I were him, I'd be really annoyed.

I think you'll get one chance at that too. Keep running off new players, and PGI will refocus their time and energy on Quickplay. Maybe they will let you convert your LPs to something useful.

I feel like you're totally oblivious to what changes were made to CW.

When Phase 1 ended, very little had changed mechanically with CW... especially with respect to rewards... but let me reiterate the only two core changes that were made with CW in Phase 2.

1) Players don't spawn in the midst of the path for the enemy to reach Omega. One of the things that made no sense (and was obviously taken advantage of) was that "farming" of the players when they spawned (far more impactful than the current iteration). It was a bad mechanic... and it was eventually addressed (although, they moved all the omega gens closer to omega - which was totally unnecessary). There was legit criticism in PGI's fundamentally flawed design here.

2) Modes were first come, first served for the team that drops in the queue first. Assuming even queues... the faction that launched their groups in first got their mode of choice (as needed for the taking/defense of the planet)... which accelerated the taking of a planet and reduced.. if not outright prevented from the defending faction to respond in a timely manner outside of having an overwhelming population to queue in response. What we have now is alternating modes.. with the side addition of "more ghost drops" that waste players time for no good reason. All I really need to say is more ghost drops to express how bad this change was (not that a change wasn't needed, but it increased the time to take a planet with a population that was more dismayed at the lack of other core changes needed).



Still, a lot of the changes (faction contracts, rewards, purpose) have not changed from Phase 1.

So, it's more of other things that contribute to CW's decline... not just what you're ranting about. MM wouldn't solve players from using the worst of builds or a straight out trial mechs dropdeck w/o a clue to drive them in the first place.

Don't even try using that terribad logic here.

[Sjorpha]

I don't understand what the "CW's decline" comments are based on, as far as I can see the CW population is higher than ever, is it it just the hip thing to believe or what?

I don't like the idea that playing ineffective on purpose is "good sportsmanship", it is the complete opposite. It is extremely disrespectful and condescending to go easy on a less skilled opponent, respecting your opponents as warriors/sportsmen is to do your absolutely best and assuming they can take it.

It's a lot better to be crushed honestly by superior opponents than it is to be patted on the head by some "helpful" self appointed "teacher" with a Jesus complex.

[TWIAFU]

Fen Tetsudo, on 08 January 2016 - 05:10 PM, said:

That would be fine is CW had a vibrant population. Its doesn't. Enjoy all your hardcore ghost drops

Just goes to show you do not play CW.

[TWIAFU]

MischiefSC, on 08 January 2016 - 05:21 PM, said:

What really pisses me off is how absolutely stubborn about being bad most the people who get 'clubbed' are. Refuse to play with the team, wander off alone, won't drop in waves, they just want to play CW like pug queue.

So they lose. Repeatedly and brutally. They get their team stomped because they are so actively, intentionally worthless.

THAT is the issue. Davion wins the bulk of their matches I've been in when they drop in a group. Mixed teams, lots of new players, some LRMs here and there, we are absolutely NOT talking a group of comp tier players in full meta. The last drop I played we won and for giggles we ran 1 wave of SRM mechs, cuz SRMs go BOOM.

It's not that hard to play well in CW. It's really not. You can do it in Trials, you can do it as an inexperienced player and you can put up a really good fight in 80% of your matches. Sure, comp tier organized teams will roll you but that happens regardless.

The issue is people who want to play CW like pug queue and fail horribly and the response is to cry to make CW work like pug queue.

NO. EFF YOU SEE KAY NO. The Office 'NO!' gif sort of no. We had a mixed group/pug queue originally and now we have a dedicated, curated pug queue. There's no reason to drop the same load on CW. The whole point of CW is it's a very different game experience than pug/group queue.

This is a side effect of having a less forgiving game environment in the same game with a curated pug-centric game environment. You get out of the kiddie pool and it's brutal, so the desire is to hammer everything down to the lowest, easiest denominator.

The few drops we did last night were a blast!

Hope to see you around more MischiefSC!

[JaxRiot]

Sjorpha, on 09 January 2016 - 02:39 AM, said:

I don't understand what the "CW's decline" comments are based on, as far as I can see the CW population is higher than ever, is it it just the hip thing to believe or what?

I don't like the idea that playing ineffective on purpose is "good sportsmanship", it is the complete opposite. It is extremely disrespectful and condescending to go easy on a less skilled opponent, respecting your opponents as warriors/sportsmen is to do your absolutely best and assuming they can take it.

It's a lot better to be crushed honestly by superior opponents than it is to be patted on the head by some "helpful" self appointed "teacher" with a Jesus complex.

I agree that it is the most active it has been in a long time

But that is because of all of the newbies from Steam

I dont think its very sportsmanlike to beat and farm newbies in trial mechs

You make it sound like you are showing them the utmost respect by using them for easy c-bills when they never stood a chance in the first place

Doesnt sound very sportsmanlike to me at all

Edit- I always thought sportsmanship involved a sense of Fairness

Edited by JaxRiot, 09 January 2016 - 08:23 AM.

[Sjorpha]

JaxRiot, on 09 January 2016 - 08:18 AM, said:

I agree that it is the most active it has been in a long time

But that is because of all of the newbies from Steam

Since I actually respect those players as much as any others, I don't see why that is a problem.

They're playing the game with me just the same as everyone else. I would like a small threshold (complete cadet bonus before entering CW or the like) but in general "steam newbies" are just new people to play the game with.

Quote

I dont think its very sportsmanlike to beat and farm newbies in trial mechs

You make it sound like you are showing them the utmost respect by using them for easy c-bills when they never stood a chance in the first place

Doesnt sound very sportsmanlike to me at all

I'm not "using them for easy c-bills". I am simply not placing certain people in a specific category that I respect less as players and treat differently from others.

If you play a game against me, any game, I will simply do my best to win as effectively as possible and I will assume you're doing the same. If you don't do your best to win I'll find that disrespectful and I will assume you would feel the same if I don't do MY best.

That, to me at least, is sportsmanship.

And the most disgusting violation of sportsmanship you can find is the superior player who flaunts his superiority by "teaching" his opponent with "friendly advice" and deliberately "goes easy" on him while still crushing him just the same. Simply revolting.

Quote

Edit- I always thought sportsmanship involved a sense of Fairness

The better player/team winning IS fair, and the win should be as decisive as the gap in skill is.

You can say that the veteran players access to more mechs and modules etc. is unfair, that makes more sense. And that's why I think a minimum of player progress, enough to allow a few optimized mechs, should be required for CW.

But you can't say the actual skill difference is unfair, that would make all games unfair. If you beat me in chess because you're better that doesn't make chess an unfair game, and if you beat me as black it wouldn't change the fact that chess as a game is biased in whites favor.

Actually, a citation often used to describe sportsmanship is precicely "let the best man win.", and that sums it up. In a fair match the best team/player wins, sportsmanship is to cherish and honour that.

[Zibmo]

MischiefSC, on 08 January 2016 - 05:21 PM, said:

What really pisses me off is how absolutely stubborn about being bad most the people who get 'clubbed' are. Refuse to play with the team, wander off alone, won't drop in waves, they just want to play CW like pug queue.

So they lose. Repeatedly and brutally. They get their team stomped because they are so actively, intentionally worthless.

THAT is the issue. Davion wins the bulk of their matches I've been in when they drop in a group. Mixed teams, lots of new players, some LRMs here and there, we are absolutely NOT talking a group of comp tier players in full meta. The last drop I played we won and for giggles we ran 1 wave of SRM mechs, cuz SRMs go BOOM.

It's not that hard to play well in CW. It's really not. You can do it in Trials, you can do it as an inexperienced player and you can put up a really good fight in 80% of your matches. Sure, comp tier organized teams will roll you but that happens regardless.

The issue is people who want to play CW like pug queue and fail horribly and the response is to cry to make CW work like pug queue.

NO. EFF YOU SEE KAY NO. The Office 'NO!' gif sort of no. We had a mixed group/pug queue originally and now we have a dedicated, curated pug queue. There's no reason to drop the same load on CW. The whole point of CW is it's a very different game experience than pug/group queue.

This is a side effect of having a less forgiving game environment in the same game with a curated pug-centric game environment. You get out of the kiddie pool and it's brutal, so the desire is to hammer everything down to the lowest, easiest denominator.

Funny. What pisses me off is the number of people who assume motive and then impugn players with absolutely no clue what they are talking about.

What you want is things done your way, and you have no problem brutally slamming anyone who disagrees in any degree to "your way".

If you don't want to club seals, allow people to select whether they want to play in the "strict" queue as solo puggers or whether they want to do nothing more than pug play against other pugs.

Your only rationale will be "the population is too low". So - you want your cake and eat it too. And no, "It's supposedtabe HARD mode" isn't a rationale. It's a bumper sticker.

Perhaps you, and those supporting your position, are simply afraid that your group mode play will eventually dry up because pugs will have fun and you will be left daisy chaining with other big groups - which you all claim you want.

How about you just set up private mode CW so you can all blow hard at each others' brick houses.

[Zibmo]

Sjorpha, on 09 January 2016 - 08:51 AM, said:

Since I actually respect those players as much as any others, I don't see why that is a problem.

They're playing the game with me just the same as everyone else. I would like a small threshold (complete cadet bonus before entering CW or the like) but in general "steam newbies" are just new people to play the game with.


I'm not "using them for easy c-bills". I am simply not placing certain people in a specific category that I respect less as players and treat differently from others.

If you play a game against me, any game, I will simply do my best to win as effectively as possible and I will assume you're doing the same. If you don't do your best to win I'll find that disrespectful and I will assume you would feel the same if I don't do MY best.

That, to me at least, is sportsmanship.

And the most disgusting violation of sportsmanship you can find is the superior player who flaunts his superiority by "teaching" his opponent with "friendly advice" and deliberately "goes easy" on him while still crushing him just the same. Simply revolting.


The better player/team winning IS fair, and the win should be as decisive as the gap in skill is.

You can say that the veteran players access to more mechs and modules etc. is unfair, that makes more sense. And that's why I think a minimum of player progress, enough to allow a few optimized mechs, should be required for CW.

But you can't say the actual skill difference is unfair, that would make all games unfair. If you beat me in chess because you're better that doesn't make chess an unfair game, and if you beat me as black it wouldn't change the fact that chess as a game is biased in whites favor.

Actually, a citation often used to describe sportsmanship is precicely "let the best man win.", and that sums it up. In a fair match the best team/player wins, sportsmanship is to cherish and honour that.

Do you believe that you are treating an 8 year old with respect if you trounce him on a basketball court? If you bring a gun to a knife fight?

I think you are half right. They need to have tools, and they need to hone their skills. There just really isn't any way for them to do it without yielding completely to the "join a group, fool" mentality.

And, before I'm accused of it: Yes. I am a misanthrope. I don't much like people in general and several specific people even less so. And yes, I do play multiplayer games. Because I get to shoot them without actually hurting them. Why? Just because I don't like you doesn't mean I'm right to not like you.

[JaxRiot]

Sjorpha, on 09 January 2016 - 08:51 AM, said:

Since I actually respect those players as much as any others, I don't see why that is a problem.

They're playing the game with me just the same as everyone else. I would like a small threshold (complete cadet bonus before entering CW or the like) but in general "steam newbies" are just new people to play the game with.


I'm not "using them for easy c-bills". I am simply not placing certain people in a specific category that I respect less as players and treat differently from others.

If you play a game against me, any game, I will simply do my best to win as effectively as possible and I will assume you're doing the same. If you don't do your best to win I'll find that disrespectful and I will assume you would feel the same if I don't do MY best.

That, to me at least, is sportsmanship.

And the most disgusting violation of sportsmanship you can find is the superior player who flaunts his superiority by "teaching" his opponent with "friendly advice" and deliberately "goes easy" on him while still crushing him just the same. Simply revolting.


The better player/team winning IS fair, and the win should be as decisive as the gap in skill is.

You can say that the veteran players access to more mechs and modules etc. is unfair, that makes more sense. And that's why I think a minimum of player progress, enough to allow a few optimized mechs, should be required for CW.

But you can't say the actual skill difference is unfair, that would make all games unfair. If you beat me in chess because you're better that doesn't make chess an unfair game, and if you beat me as black it wouldn't change the fact that chess as a game is biased in whites favor.

Actually, a citation often used to describe sportsmanship is precicely "let the best man win.", and that sums it up. In a fair match the best team/player wins, sportsmanship is to cherish and honour that.

I agree with what you are saying with all things being equal

But all things are not equal, especially in CW.

Using your chess example- Would you consider yourself a true sportsman / competitor if the person you beat at chess was handicapped?

You probably wouldnt because that would be an unfair match up. Your opponent was handicapped and didnt stand a chance.

Which is whats happening in CW. The new players are handicapped. They lack the knowledge, skill, and equipment (mechs) to even be considered competition.

But the Units say that CW is for Competitive Unit play.. Then why are Pugs even in there? Why are Newbies even allowed in there? And why are the Units so opposed to any kind of segregation if they truly are in CW for Unit Competitive Play?

Plus, where is the competition in farming newbies in trial mechs? Where is the sportsmanship in such an unbalanced match up?

I do agree with you that New Players shouldnt be allowed in CW until a certain point though. For their own sake.

Edited by JaxRiot, 09 January 2016 - 09:35 AM.

[Sjorpha]

Zibmo, on 09 January 2016 - 09:03 AM, said:

Do you believe that you are treating an 8 year old with respect if you trounce him on a basketball court?

Of course I treat children as children, but I'm actually assuming that my presumably adult opponents in CW don't want me to treat them like children.

I'm assuming they entered the game mode explicitly labeled as "hardcore" because they want to do their best against other players doing their best, and in my mind I'm showing them the most respect by not holding back.

Do you think they would like me to treat them like 8 year olds? Do you think they would find that respectful?

Quote

If you bring a gun to a knife fight?

If it's a game designed around knife fighting then I would assume guns are against the rules, I'm not advocating cheating so I'm not sure what your point is here.


That's assuming it's a game, I could understand bringing a gun to a real knife fight though, I mean not actually dying for real would probably take precedence over fairness don't you think?

I will bring whatever best suits my chosen strategy to win a particular match if that's what you're asking, but it's a bit moot since you choose your dropdeck before knowing the opponents in CW anyways. I always assume it's a reasonably good team on the other side when choosing my mechs, otherwise I'm at risk of having bad mechs in a match that matters to my unit. It happen that I take that risk when I'm goofing around or leveling mechs, but in general there isn't really any "gun to knife fight" type choice in CW.

Quote

I think you are half right. They need to have tools, and they need to hone their skills. There just really isn't any way for them to do it without yielding completely to the "join a group, fool" mentality.

Sure there is. I'll be helpful to newbies on my team, and I'll assume the vets on enemy team are too. Everyone should be nice and helpful to newbies, we should all work at being there for them as much as possible.

What I'm saying is that holding back yourself and playing badly on purpose is not nice or helpful.

And the way to get good at games is to lose and practice until you are good enough to win, no way around that.

There is also plenty of pug vs pug in CW, it's not like you're always against super strong teams or anything. There isn't even that many very strong teams in CW in the first place. The issue is quite overhyped I think.

Quote

And, before I'm accused of it: Yes. I am a misanthrope. I don't much like people in general and several specific people even less so. And yes, I do play multiplayer games. Because I get to shoot them without actually hurting them. Why? Just because I don't like you doesn't mean I'm right to not like you.

Ok.

[Smotty]

This crap is still going? 33 pages of back and forth banter on pug farming and how CW isn't fair on new players. The big bad units using teamwork being OP...

Quit crying about getting farmed in CW, treat it as a learning experience on how to get better. Watch what the organized team does, the tactics they use and mechs and load outs they bring. Read guides that are available from the community (check out Kin3ticX's guide at the minimum, is one of the sticky posts in the CW forums) and actually use teamwork. Also use the faction hub you belong to TS, or VOIP at a minimum. CW is a TEAM MODE, SO USE TEAMWORK!

Everyone starts out as the newbie, and with time and experience things will change.

Also realize that the more competitive units like to play the different game modes, and if you run into one of us and get farmed, better luck next time. Personally when I drop solo and see a large unit on the other side I look forward to the fight. I'm going to try and take out as many of them as possible, provide information to my team via VOIP and/or chat and do everything I can to not be farmed and actually provide a challenge to the opponent.

It's the attempt at putting up a fight that is fun, even if you do lose at least you can say you gave them hell.

[Sjorpha]

JaxRiot, on 09 January 2016 - 09:31 AM, said:

I agree with what you are saying with all things being equal

But all things are not equal, especially in CW.

Using your chess example- Would you consider yourself a true sportsman / competitor if the person you beat at chess was handicapped?

You probably wouldnt because that would be an unfair match up. Your opponent was handicapped and didnt stand a chance.

Here I actually have a good deal of experience, I work with handicapped people a lot.

It depends a bit on the handicap of course, but most handicapped people, even mentally handicapped, self identify as adults and would not appreciate it very much if you deliberately dumbed yourself down in a game against them. Most people prefer an honest loss over a faked win, including handicapped people.

Now every handicapped person I played chess against have crushed me, it's not uncommon for severely handicapped people to be very good gamers because they often have lots of spare time.

Now assuming it was a handicap that involved the person self identifying as a child or extremely limited intellectually I might approach it differently, more like with a child.

Quote

Which is whats happening in CW. The new players are handicapped. They lack the knowledge, skill, and equipment (mechs) to even be considered competition.

I don't agree. They are not like the special categories of young children or specifically limiting mental handicaps, they are just new players.

The correct comparison with chess would simply be "new chess players". But here we are making up weirdly specific categories beyond the obvious analogy like "handicaps" and "8 year olds" and using them to compare instead.

My strawman sense is tingling.

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But the Units say that CW is for Competitive Unit play.. Then why are Pugs even in there? Why are Newbies even allowed in there? And why are the Units so opposed to any kind of segregation if they truly are in CW for Unit Competitive Play?

I don't think CW is for competitive unit play at all. Competitive unit play is in leagues and tournaments. Group queue is a lot more competitive than CW, and so is solo queue at the highest tiers.

CW is a warfare simulation, it's neither competitive nor fair by design. It's for units in the sense that in a warfare simulation you need macro level organization to affect the flow of power on the map.

It's not hardcore in a competitive sport sense, it's hardcore in the warfare simulation sense. I think this conflation of categories is the source of much useless talking past each other on the topic.

I'm against queue segregation for two reasons:

1. First because I want CW to develop towards a more complex and involving warfare simulation, I want a pseudo realistic realisation of the clan invasion. The macro level strategy and political dimension is what I want to be the focus of the finished product. It doesn't make any sense to have separate queues from that perspective, that would be too gamey.

2. And second because I don't think there are enough people to have split queues. Not because I want to farm, I hate it, but I'd rather CW be functional with some unfortunate pugfarming as a side effect than not working at all. We almost never get a full 12, we almost always have to pick some pugs up to make the team, most teams are in the same situation. It just wouldn't work technically to make enough matches fast enough without using the solos as padding.

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Plus, where is the competition in farming newbies in trial mechs? Where is the sportsmanship in such an unbalanced match up?

My definition of sportsmanship is given already, so you already know that I see no actual relation between skill imbalance and sportmanship. You can be a good or bad sport whether the match is unbalanced skill wise or not, playing bad on purpose would be a prime example of extremely bad sportmanship in that case.

The competition in a very unbalanced match is against yourself and your own teammates, to strive for perfection of strategy and personal performance. No matter how well you do you can always do better.

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I do agree with you that New Players shouldnt be allowed in CW until a certain point though. For their own sake.

Yup.

[Hotthedd]

Zibmo, on 09 January 2016 - 08:59 AM, said:

If you don't want to club seals, allow people to select whether they want to play in the "strict" queue as solo puggers or whether they want to do nothing more than pug play against other pugs. don't.

FTFY

[MechWarrior3671771]

Munching popcorn, reading all the lame justifications for spawncamping newbies in trial mechs.

This is almost as good as the "rglow edit is not an expliot" thread days before PGI blocked it out of user.cfg

[Leggin Ho]

JaxRiot, on 09 January 2016 - 08:18 AM, said:

I agree that it is the most active it has been in a long time

But that is because of all of the newbies from Steam

I dont think its very sportsmanlike to beat and farm newbies in trial mechs

You make it sound like you are showing them the utmost respect by using them for easy c-bills when they never stood a chance in the first place

Doesnt sound very sportsmanlike to me at all

Edit- I always thought sportsmanship involved a sense of Fairness

But your mixing up "fairness" with a "entitlement" to win just because they are playing a online game. Both side have the same ability to buy and modify mechs (IS has more than Clan but that's a different discussion) the difference is the amount of TIME players that have worked to get full CW ready drop decks vs brand new players that charge into the game mode with no clue and try to play it as a single person vs the 6,8,12 man team on the other side actually using that OP thing called "TEAMWORK" in a team based game type.

[MechWarrior3671771]

Leggin Ho, on 09 January 2016 - 12:09 PM, said:

But your mixing up "fairness" with a "entitlement" to win just because they are playing a online game. ...the other side actually using that OP thing called "TEAMWORK" in a team based game type.

More false arguments.

The new players aren't leaving because they are getting stomped.

They are leaving because they aren't being allowed to play the game.

They are tired of waiting 20 mins to play only to have their 3rd and 4th mechs spawncamped.

Let them group up and come out and play out their waves.

Its a slight inconvenience for us thats much better than running them out of CW.

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 08 January 2016 - 05:21 PM, said:

What really pisses me off is how absolutely stubborn about being bad most the people who get 'clubbed' are. Refuse to play with the team, wander off alone, won't drop in waves, they just want to play CW like pug queue.

So they lose. Repeatedly and brutally. They get their team stomped because they are so actively, intentionally worthless.

THAT is the issue. Davion wins the bulk of their matches I've been in when they drop in a group. Mixed teams, lots of new players, some LRMs here and there, we are absolutely NOT talking a group of comp tier players in full meta. The last drop I played we won and for giggles we ran 1 wave of SRM mechs, cuz SRMs go BOOM.

It's not that hard to play well in CW. It's really not. You can do it in Trials, you can do it as an inexperienced player and you can put up a really good fight in 80% of your matches. Sure, comp tier organized teams will roll you but that happens regardless.

The issue is people who want to play CW like pug queue and fail horribly and the response is to cry to make CW work like pug queue.

NO. EFF YOU SEE KAY NO. The Office 'NO!' gif sort of no. We had a mixed group/pug queue originally and now we have a dedicated, curated pug queue. There's no reason to drop the same load on CW. The whole point of CW is it's a very different game experience than pug/group queue.

This is a side effect of having a less forgiving game environment in the same game with a curated pug-centric game environment. You get out of the kiddie pool and it's brutal, so the desire is to hammer everything down to the lowest, easiest denominator.

You and me both good sir. You and me both

[MechWarrior3671771]

Quote

The issue is people who want to play CW like pug queue and fail horribly and the response is to cry to make CW work like pug queue.

More false arguments. I'm just going to keep repeating this till it finally takes:

The new players aren't leaving because they are getting stomped.
They are leaving because they aren't being allowed to play the game.

They are tired of waiting 20 mins to play only to have their 3rd and 4th mechs spawncamped.

Just let them group up and play out their waves.

Its a slight inconvenience for us that's much better than running them out of CW.

[Sjorpha]

Fen Tetsudo, on 09 January 2016 - 12:20 PM, said:

More false arguments.

The new players aren't leaving because they are getting stomped.

They are leaving because they aren't being allowed to play the game.

They are tired of waiting 20 mins to play only to have their 3rd and 4th mechs spawncamped.

Let them group up and come out and play out their waves.

Its a slight inconvenience for us thats much better than running them out of CW.

The problem with that is that player behavior beyond a certain critical mass is more of a statistical calculation than it is a decision to be made through discussion.

You might get a few units to agree to a policy of no spawncamping (except of course when the pugs choose to stay in their spawn, which they often do, then you have no choice but to spawncamp.) and some units already do refrain from it.

But the problem is that it remains built into the game, and it remains a working strategy as well. That is a design flaw, you can't build a certain tactic into the game and then make people not use it. It just can't be done.

If you want spawncamping gone you have to make it not work. It already does not work against decent players, so even now it's only a problem when the match is already a complete roflstomp, but you could arguably make it NEVER work somehow.

Now I'm not actually convinced it is specifically the spawncamping that are the saltmine here, I think people are angry about being stomped 48-4 or whatever even when not spawncamped, and they wouldn't feel the pugstomping issue solved just because the spawncamping was solved.