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Hiding Is Against Toc


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#201 MrMadguy

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 12:21 AM

View Postadamts01, on 10 January 2016 - 11:27 PM, said:

My bad about that quote. Don't want to get too far off topic with this. A fast ecm light is built for legitimate evasion, be it scouting or as a striker. Any new system system that can effectively locate it could easily locate a flanking lance or the entire enemy blob. That technology would extremely reduce the need for eyes on the field. Personally, I'd rather have no red dorito unless a mech was already targeted, active/passive radar and more sneaky ninja ****. I know that's just my personal preference so whatever. I made this post to point out a behavior that's widely thought to be legal.

If you like stealth action, then may be MWO isn't for you and you should go play stealth action games instead? Go play MGS for example. Everybody would happy then. Also you should admit, that wanting to attack enemies without them being able to return fire (i.e. from complete stealth for example) - is obvious sign of cowardice. May be PVP games aren't for you and you should play PVE games instead?

#202 Sagamore

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 01:10 AM

View PostMrMadguy, on 08 January 2016 - 12:56 AM, said:

I in my King Crab was left 1vs1 against only one 'Mech left at their side - Firecheater. First he tried to use his invulnerability to defeat me - he was running from me around the base for several minutes.


I bet he could survive a side torso loss too and had ECM.

#203 Kjudoon

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 01:24 AM

If you dont like stealth.......?


What do you tbink the magic ecm box is????? Its whole purpose is stealth so you can backstab someone, not just an lrm umbrella or bad player crutch!

Why have shut down for overheat? Lets just let the suckers explode. They are obviously not hard core enough to play this game as stupidly as possible! Only real he man l33t wariorz play without override!

Oh my head... My chest! This is it.... I'm coming elizabeth! Its the big one!

::::stern look of disappointed authoritah figure::::


Puhleeze.

#204 adamts01

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 02:52 AM

View PostAnonyTerrorNinja, on 11 January 2016 - 12:06 AM, said:

. Outright saying "I don't want it because reasons" on the other hand is basically the same as saying "no, I don't like ideas, leave the game as it is right now".
.
Not liking your idea doesn't mean at all that I think they should leave the game as is. I just don't like your idea, nothing personal. Between seismic and old-school scouting, I think there are enough ways to find the enemy. If anything, I think they should harder to find, that might encourage more guerilla warfare and striking from flanks instead of the boring, all-powerful murder ball. The current CoC addresses trolls hiding and dragging out the game for childish reasons. It's up to PGI now to give them all slaps on the hand and take away their video game time after school.

View PostMrMadguy, on 11 January 2016 - 12:21 AM, said:

If you like stealth action, then may be MWO isn't for you and you should go play stealth action games instead? Go play MGS for example. Everybody would happy then. Also you should admit, that wanting to attack enemies without them being able to return fire (i.e. from complete stealth for example) - is obvious sign of cowardice. May be PVP games aren't for you and you should play PVE games instead?
I'm getting in to my first competitions this season, maybe I'll see you there Mr hardcore PvP.

#205 TheoLu

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 04:48 AM

"Also you should admit, that wanting to attack enemies without them being able to return fire (i.e. from complete stealth for example) - is obvious sign of cowardice. May be PVP games aren't for you and you should play PVE games instead?"

There's nothing in this game which provides 'complete stealth', and using one's mech in a manner which yields the greatest chance for their team's success isn't 'cowardice', it's being 'clever'.

'Clever' which is the opposite of 'foolish'.

Go PVP in EVE-Online for a bit then come define 'cowardice' for us again, if you'd be so kind.

"Not liking your idea doesn't mean at all that I think they should leave the game as is. I just don't like your idea, nothing personal"

That's why I asked you to explain how you came to your conclusion. I don't care for whether people like or dislike something on the basis of 'personal' or 'impersonal'; in fact I don't give a toss if someone doesn't like my idea simply for the sake of disliking it. I do want for people to rationalize that dislike, though, so I can think of compromises which might see something I want be acceptable to others as well and thus move towards implementation.

#206 adamts01

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 05:17 AM

View PostAnonyTerrorNinja, on 11 January 2016 - 04:48 AM, said:

Go PVP in EVE-Online for a bit then come define 'cowardice' for us again, if you'd be so kind.

That's why I asked you to explain how you came to your conclusion.


So what's your reply to my reply? With more sensor options, I think headbutting deathball will be even more prevalent.

Super side note: I started looking for another game when I couldn't find a big unit to join in my time frame and tried out Eve. I like the idea of it but I hate the game, and It just clicked as to why after your comment. There are no good fights. It's either camping or warping around till you find a fight your group knows they'll win. Then hopefully 1 in that group waits more than half a second to click warp and you catch him and kill him. The rest of the time you spend running from bigger fish. It's the same reason I like close boxing matches, overtime football games, and 12 man Vs 12 man group drops. Eve is entirely about the big fish catching the little fish off guard. So my 6 month subscription is sitting idle after a month, it just sucks.



#207 TheoLu

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 06:03 AM

The first line you copied was directed at that other guy rather'n you. The second line at you.

"There are no good fights. It's either camping or warping around till you find a fight your group knows they'll win"

I disagree with this. I began playing in Feb 2005 and played quite actively for a few years, and while PVP can be along the lines you describe it's also possible for you to be a 'little guy' taking on the big fish and still coming out on top. What you use, how you use it and what sort of outcome(s) you're going to find satisfactory or rewarding will influence your stance on whether you find the PVP rewarding or not, of course.

It stands to reason that the game instilling a real sense of 'loss' that people are going to do the sensible thing and avoid placing themselves at unnecessary risk. It may just be a game, but you wouldn't expect a cargo ship to go skirt Somalia and be all "guys don't board me and take all my stuff, I don't feel like fighting you", just as you wouldn't expect a lone gunman to rush into Syria with nothing but an assault rifle in his arms and a few extra magazines worth of ammunition on his person expecting to come out saying "that was a jolly good fight!" rather than getting his tuchus handed to him.


But back on topic, "So what's your reply to my reply? With more sensor options, I think headbutting deathball will be even more prevalent"

Note my explanation in post #201. You didn't exactly 'reply' anything to me other than saying "I just don't like it, nothing personal" in your latest response (prior to the one I'm addressing now).

Specifically note: "To counter-balance 'start-of-match' scouting by lights taking a back-seat the thermal imaging systems could take several minutes to come online; first 5 minutes of a match, say"

I still want you to explain how you came to the conclusion, based on what I've proposed, that my idea would "nullify sneaky playstyles"; this explanation has remained absent thus far.

Edited by AnonyTerrorNinja, 11 January 2016 - 06:03 AM.


#208 Ari Dian

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 06:04 AM

View PostMrMadguy, on 10 January 2016 - 01:15 AM, said:

...
But, you should remember, that securing a win - isn't against COC, but needlessly dragging out a match, when it's loss for you anyway - is.


And this is where you dont want to understand it. You didnt secure your win by sitting in your base. All you did is to prevent a loss.

So you are guilty by your own definition.

Edited by Ari Dian, 11 January 2016 - 06:10 AM.


#209 adamts01

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 06:45 AM

View PostAnonyTerrorNinja, on 11 January 2016 - 06:03 AM, said:

I still want you to explain how you came to the conclusion, based on what I've proposed, that my idea would "nullify sneaky playstyles"; this explanation has remained absent thus far.
As to Eve, I get what you're saying, but that's the difference about games and real life. I don't want to fight an amateur at the dojo, it's a sport I practice for usefulness and fun. That said, I'm not going Muay Thai kick a guy who pulls a knife on me on the street, he's getting 9 mills from my Glock till he's down. Eve is all about seal clubbing, it just doesn't appeal to me. My corp did prefer tier 1 frigates and went after bigger fish, but we always had numbers.

Back on topic: your 5 min warm up does fix early scouting. Normally, both teams square up and trade, when one starts losing, they do something sneaky and drastic on a flank before they get rushed with numbers or picked apart further. How would this mid game flank work if you could see on the map which general direction the enemy was shifting? Even a medium sniper going opposite of the flank would show up... It just seems that these risky maneuvers would become even riskier.

#210 Rushin Roulette

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 06:53 AM

View PostMrMadguy, on 08 January 2016 - 04:55 AM, said:

Lol. I lost my chance to win only because he gone hiding - that's what is called non-participation. Also, we don't care, what you think is acceptable. You have rules - you have to follow them. He had lasers in CT - he had a chance to win. He refused to do it. Have it contributed to his win? No. He was non-participating - he was reported.


How about looking at the whole picture instead of through your selfish viewpoint?

In other words you should also have been reported for non participation because you refused to leave your cap zone. He played the game up to a point where it was strategically better to pull back and wait for a better chance. He is not obliged to go suicide against your superior weapons when there is still the chance of securing a win through capping. If you refuse to search for him then, in your own terms, you are also not participating in the game.

#211 TheoLu

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 07:36 AM

"How would this mid game flank work if you could see on the map which general direction the enemy was shifting? Even a medium sniper going opposite of the flank would show up... It just seems that these risky maneuvers would become even riskier"

That the data would be delayed –let's say by 10 seconds– and aggregate –that is to say all heat data 'collected' in an area shows up as a (big) cloud rather than being precise– it would only give one a general idea of where someone might be or might have been. Because of the delay, where a medium sniper was 10 seconds ago mightn't be where they'd be sitting by the time even a 130km/h+ light rushes over to that general position.

This is further complicated by the fact all weapons-fire would contribute to the heatmap. If it's an Artemis LRM user they could fire off a volley of missiles at a hill away from their position to heat the map up there; the missiles' streams wouldn't create all that much of a signature, but the explosions would. The missiles leaving the pods on the mech and the mech heating up from the firing would be variable in how much it'd contribute based on several factors, one of those being the net heat generated. If a mech 'holds' the heat for longer then it's going to be more pronounced on the map while moving. If it dissipates it quicker then it's going to create a hotter area on the map where it was at the time of firing, but not 'follow' the mech as much while it's moving. The rate of dissipation would mean an element of firing vs moving would come into play since you'd need to determine whether you're going to create a spike in your chosen direction of travel or not.

If the firing takes place from an underground position or an area otherwise obscured by physical objects (the bridge or collapsed highway in River City, the tunnel in Frozen City or from under trees) the signature on the map is either going to be non-existent (tunnel) to be less pronounced (bridge/highway); similarly a mech moving under these is going to be either much more difficult to see or simply not appear. OTOH, if a mech comes out of the tunnel on Frozen City it'll produce heat at any one of those 3 points; once again, since the signature is going to be delayed on the map, it's going to be pronounced, but that doesn't mean it's going to be of particular use by the time someone gets there.

If a mech trying to create decoy hotspots does their firing while standing next to a heatsource (geysers/springs on Caustic Valley, lavaflows on that lava map the-name-of-which-I-forget, etc), they're going to be much less pronounced or virtually-invisible on the map when doing so. As a trade-off, because they're near a heatsouce their mech is going to have a higher heat when they start running which means timing and/or their route away from their position both become more important.

Lastly, most importantly, because the data is delayed by such a span of time, at least one person is going to need to sit there watching their map for changes and determining whether those changes are because of decoy actions, whether they're 'world' heat anomalies, or if it's a mech, where that mech might be headed based on where they were 10 seconds ago, things of that nature.

With the map obscuring their view and preventing them from aiming around it ought to be decently obvious whether someone is checking their thermal map (or pretending to) and taking some pot-shots at them before running away again. They, the one being shot at, then need to decide whether they try to pin-point the location of the enemy using the normal map and looking around, or sit there taking hits for 10 seconds to see where the heat on the map increases and relay that information instead, hoping whoever was shooting at them hasn't long-since vacated the area by the time their teammates get there.

As a bonus, gauss rifles generating virtually no heat and doing a lot of damage per shot along with it being nigh impossible to determine where the projectile came from unless you're one of the other guys (and even then), sitting around watching your map-checker makes you vulnerable not only because you're a target in plain sight, but because those shots might give you no clue as to where they are/were in the end.

Being a system reliant on collecting data from an orbital dropship I'd say a clear line of sight and not being particularly close to things like buildings to ensure a strong signal should be a further requirement. On maps like the bog that practically guarantees you'd need to sit around on one of the plateaus near the edges, and then you're still trying to use it on a map where it may be of minimal/no use to you. In other words, like many other things in the game, the map (play arena) will have a very large role to play in the effectiveness of various tactics/systems.

Edited by AnonyTerrorNinja, 11 January 2016 - 07:38 AM.


#212 Kjudoon

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 07:47 AM

Posted Image

The level of desired gameplay by the hiderwhiners.

#213 adamts01

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 08:09 AM

Still don't like it. It's still a system that hinders, however slightly, surprise flanks and ambushes. And I think it's the opposite direction the game should go in. Take passive radar for instance. Why do you want it? Just for LRM defense? I want it so that a lance could more easily sneak in to an advantageous position, and have an easier time evading after their strike.

Maybe 1/4 of the mechs excel in direct confrontation, the lower 1/4 suck and require cunning to do well in, which revolves around staying under the radar and picking good fights, of which there are few. That's not to say they're cowards and can't help their team, if anyone has seen me in my Mist Lynx they know I'm balls deep in the fight when it's called for. I'm normally the first one in my team shooting and definitely the first one to blast an enemy in the face to get his attention off my ally. I just can't support anything that punishes those crap mechs more than they are already.

#214 adamts01

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 08:14 AM

View PostKjudoon, on 11 January 2016 - 07:47 AM, said:

Posted Image

The level of desired gameplay by the hiderwhiners.
Who exactly are you directing this at?

#215 Kjudoon

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 08:35 AM

View Postadamts01, on 11 January 2016 - 08:14 AM, said:

Who exactly are you directing this at?

Those who claim stealth and hiding have no place in this game.

#216 adamts01

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 08:49 AM

View PostKjudoon, on 11 January 2016 - 08:35 AM, said:

Those who claim stealth and hiding have no place in this game.
I started this post about trolls hiding with zero intent of winning. But I've ended up spending most of my time arguing for more stealthynesss. So I was just curious. Punks that violate CoC by shutting down with no chance of winning are doing more against the cause than anyone. They give stealthy lights a bad name.

#217 Kjudoon

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 08:58 AM

View Postadamts01, on 11 January 2016 - 08:49 AM, said:

I started this post about trolls hiding with zero intent of winning. But I've ended up spending most of my time arguing for more stealthynesss. So I was just curious. Punks that violate CoC by shutting down with no chance of winning are doing more against the cause than anyone. They give stealthy lights a bad name.

I don't do hopeless causes, and will shut down or face to wall to take away the headshot and go web browse if that becomes the case and come back in 15 minutes. If I think I have a chance, I will drag them all over the map looking for an opening to win and use whatever means necessary to pull it off. But just to daftly walk up to the nearest Dire Whale and say "please sir, shoot me in the face" like some here seem to think is their bloody right to demand is not going to happen, and in those cases, if I hear someone demanding that, I will make them hunt me down and try to make them win by timer only.

The saddest part was a match that went that horribly in a king crab on Mining collective once. I lost all weapons, and so I just put my face to a wall in the middle of the map near a main road through and nobody found me for 6 minutes even though I was not hiding. I came back, was still there, alive with 7 guys looking for one of the biggest mechs in the game, not even hiding... and they couldn't find it.

Sorry, but they deserved to waste their time, as they could not find a mech that had only 1-2 hits with a small laser left to his back armor in a place nobody should have missed him.

Edited by Kjudoon, 11 January 2016 - 09:00 AM.


#218 adamts01

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 09:15 AM

View PostKjudoon, on 11 January 2016 - 08:58 AM, said:

I don't do hopeless causes, and will shut down or face to wall to take away the headshot and go web browse if that becomes the case and come back in 15 minutes..
Blatantly against CoC. Just find a weak mech, try to get a ramming kill, run through them and see if they'll shoot each other.... Whatever, just accept the loss and move on to the next match. So what of there are 1 or 2 ********, your screwing over the other 20 players in the match. What are you trying to prove?

#219 TheoLu

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 09:48 AM

"Take passive radar for instance. Why do you want it? Just for LRM defense?"

I'd personally want it for avoiding detection in general, not LRM defense. I don't see any reason LRMs shouldn't be able to track the heat signature of a mech at least a bit if they were to lose tracking information from the firing mech's targeting computer or in the absence of a NARC.

"I just can't support anything that punishes those crap mechs more than they are already"

That'd be where balancing comes in. Find a way to make this possible without it directly, inherently making mechs which are already at a disadvantage even more disadvantaged. Or specifically, turn mechs which are already under-utilized due to better options existing into what amount to niche bay-fillers you take off the shelf just for giggles.

Take engine heatsink *slots* as an example; my Cicada's XL engine (being the noobie I was when I came back to the game I didn't realise engines are bought as entire things [I don't think the vodka helped either, but anyway]) as example. That thing had, as all engines do, built-in heatsinks. It also had three slots on the engine I got.

Perhaps have engine-mounted heatsinks be more effective in reducing the mech's overall heat signature while reducing their weapons cooling capacity a bit?

Quirks could be of use too; have set bonuses for some clan mech omnipods and variant bonuses for IS mechs which provide benefits (or detriments) to heat signature generation.

If done right this could actually enable some mechs to be even more stealthy as *some* 'necessity' for effective play is directed towards employing the heat map, yet these mechs could be relatively protected against just that.

#220 Grimlox

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 10:13 AM

LEGITIMATE QUESTION:

So is this scenario against the TOS because this came up the other day.

I was running a Thunderbolt iirc that had 3 lpl's on one side of the mech and after doing about 400 dmg I lost both side torso's and my CT was dark orange/red internals. The map was HPG Manifold and my team was up 9 kills to 5 when my mech was put into this state.

My choices:

1) Head towards the enemy and maybe soak 1-2 hits with 0 ability to shield as both ST's were already lost. Pretty much guaranteed death if the enemy sees a stick mech anywhere near them in this state.

2) Disengage from the fight where I won't be spotted and let my team finish what we started and not die a terrible death.

I chose option #2. I did not powerdown but I left the area where I thought I might be spotted and killed. If we were not up by 4 kills or if I had some more health to soak I likely would have gone for option 1.

Here's how it played out: The kills started narrowing and as soon as it looked as though we might blow our lead someone starts cussing me out on voicechat and saying he is going to report me if we lose. Our team ended up winning 12-9. I didn't bother trying to explain to this person the situation.

Was there some selfishness in trying to not die in what I thought would have been needlessly when we were up 4 kills? Yes. Isn't it also a bit selfish to ask someone to suicide when they can soak at most 20dmg? I think so. Regardless the questions remains, were my actions against the TOS? Should I have been reported. This has only ever happened the one time so it doesn't worry me but I'm curious what the community thinks. I'm the first one to throw myself into the fray with even one mlas left or some armour to tank for my teammates and don't care much about stats other than as a reflection of if I am generally improving or not.





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