135 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Moldur, on 12 January 2016 - 11:20 PM, said:

Clans are worse off than IS right now.

IS got boosted up too much, clans got knocked down too much. The two have marginally switched places rather than met in the middle.

I think they are closer now than they were before. The IS still had no good answer to the Gauss-ER ML builds or even the full laser vomit builds.

Now, we have a couple chassis that were overquirked, if they were brought into line we would be in pretty good shape.

[Lily from animove]

Mcgral18, on 13 January 2016 - 07:36 AM, said:

...heat efficiencies weren't touched...

On a 25cDHS mech, you lost 6% heat cap (less than an ERML's worth of heat) and gained 3% dissipation.
A 10 TrueDub mech (of either faction) was not touched at all.

Only PoorDubs were changed, and as seen above, it's barely worth mentioning.

which mean severy clanmech not able to carry a proper amount of heatsinks, especially lights lke the MLX got a nerf by having the skills cut down.

mogs01gt, on 13 January 2016 - 05:53 AM, said:

Negative. It shows that clan tech is still more efficient in MWO.

Crow > mediums
TBR/Hellbringer still debated as best heavy but the margin is closer.
DWF > assaults

Hell the worst Clan mech in each weight class is still vastly superior to the worse IS mech in the same class.

Not really, its just that few selected clanemchs being better but this entire picture isn't true. take the whole chassis challange back when all mechs fought with the same rules for a leadership under the same goal criteria. it showed how well some chassis are capable of things and which not. unfortunately we didn't had a chassis challange recently to check this for the new clanners. Clantech isn't more efficient its just some chassis being more efficient.

[Mcgral18]

Gas Guzzler, on 13 January 2016 - 07:42 AM, said:

I think they are closer now than they were before. The IS still had no good answer to the Gauss-ER ML builds or even the full laser vomit builds.

Now, we have a couple chassis that were overquirked, if they were brought into line we would be in pretty good shape.

Not entirely true either.

A tiny selection of top performers from either faction kinda compete with each other at different niches...while the Trash Tier of both factions get stomped on.


Balancing factions exclusively via quirks is just silly.

Lily from animove, on 13 January 2016 - 07:49 AM, said:

which mean severy clanmech not able to carry a proper amount of heatsinks, especially lights lke the MLX got a nerf by having the skills cut down.

I repeat, heat effiencies untouched: Same 20% and 15%

Agility was gimped, and PoorDubs changed. Sub 10 TrueDubs were affected, but not by the efficiency change (heat wise)

[Gas Guzzler]

Mcgral18, on 13 January 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

Balancing factions exclusively via quirks is just silly.

Just to clarify, so you mean tech should be balanced without quirks, and then look at the chassis that are hardpoint starved, have poor hitboxes, were not blessed (locked equipment) and use quirks to balance those?

Mcgral18, on 13 January 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

I repeat, heat effiencies untouched: Same 20% and 15%

Agility was gimped, and PoorDubs changed. Sub 10 TrueDubs were affected, but not by the efficiency change (heat wise)

Its frustrating how people arguing about balance don't have their facts straight, isn't it?

[mogs01gt]

Lily from animove, on 13 January 2016 - 07:49 AM, said:

Not really, its just that few selected clanemchs being better but this entire picture isn't true. take the whole chassis challange back when all mechs fought with the same rules for a leadership under the same goal criteria. it showed how well some chassis are capable of things and which not. unfortunately we didn't had a chassis challange recently to check this for the new clanners. Clantech isn't more efficient its just some chassis being more efficient.

Clan chassis are technically poorly designed for MWO since there are less chassis with high mounted hardpoints compared to IS mechs. Clan tech it self is more efficient. Example: XL engines, lighter hardpoints, longer range etc.

[Mcgral18]

Gas Guzzler, on 13 January 2016 - 07:56 AM, said:

Just to clarify, so you mean tech should be balanced without quirks, and then look at the chassis that are hardpoint starved, have poor hitboxes, were not blessed (locked equipment) and use quirks to balance those?

Correct. The bj1x is a nice example, being outright superior in almost every way to the Vindis (torso yaw and JJs are all I can think of), but getting considerably better quirks, which were cut back.

So, quirking the already not bad mechs above the Terribad, and not touching the tech itself.

Balance tech as well as you reasonably could, while quirking the over and under performers...not quirking EVERYTHING to the desired level, keeping the balance reliant on quirks and not tech.

[Dimento Graven]

Make IS 'mechs competitive with Clan 'mechs and you get test tube tears...

[Jon Gotham]

Depends on the definition of "competitive" though. Saying balance is currently "fine" is willful self deception.

[Dimento Graven]

kamiko kross, on 13 January 2016 - 08:41 AM, said:

Depends on the definition of "competitive" though. Saying balance is currently "fine" is willful self deception.

Funny how it was 'fine' when the Clans had NO IS 'mech that was coming close to their performance.

Now that we have a few that have ONE weapon system that might exceed Clan range, and ONE or two that have comparable survivability, they're here posting about it.

The over all technological (alpha power), survival, and speed trifecta is still in the Clan's favor for most 'mechs.

[pwnface]

Mcgral18, on 13 January 2016 - 08:22 AM, said:

Correct. The bj1x is a nice example, being outright superior in almost every way to the Vindis (torso yaw and JJs are all I can think of), but getting considerably better quirks, which were cut back.

So, quirking the already not bad mechs above the Terribad, and not touching the tech itself.

Balance tech as well as you reasonably could, while quirking the over and under performers...not quirking EVERYTHING to the desired level, keeping the balance reliant on quirks and not tech.

They should have kept the offensive quirks and reduced the structure quirks on the BJ-1X as many of us had hoped. Obviously, they had to go the other direction because PGI always does things the way they want to.

Change the BJ-1X to 15% energy range and 15% energy heat gen and cut the structure quirks in half. It should hit hard but not have internal structure greater than 85t assault mechs. That's just silly.

Dimento Graven, on 13 January 2016 - 09:12 AM, said:

Funny how it was 'fine' when the Clans had NO IS 'mech that was coming close to their performance.

Now that we have a few that have ONE weapon system that might exceed Clan range, and ONE or two that have comparable survivability, they're here posting about it.

The over all technological (alpha power), survival, and speed trifecta is still in the Clan's favor for most 'mechs.

IS ERLL has been outranging clans for a long time now, this isn't new but for some reason everyone just started to complain about it now.

[Dimento Graven]

pwnface, on 13 January 2016 - 09:31 AM, said:

...

IS ERLL has been outranging clans for a long time now, this isn't new but for some reason everyone just started to complain about it now.

The weird thing is, I think it's only when the laser range is quirked at 20% or beyond that the range becomes significantly beyond Clan reach.

There's only 1 IS assault (the BLR-1S) and 5 IS heavies that have range quirks at or beyond 20%.

MOST of the hew and cry has been over mediums (and one person in another thread was laughably crying about the COM-1D's 40% quirk), which are in variably easier to kill.

Honestly, bring back knock down and FINALLY put in a REAL heat affects table and a lot of this silliness would probably even itself out.

[Sandpit]

Gas Guzzler, on 13 January 2016 - 07:56 AM, said:

Its frustrating how people arguing about balance don't have their facts straight, isn't it?

tell me about it

adamts01, on 13 January 2016 - 10:21 AM, said:

I couldn't care less about current CW. I haven't touched it since it came out. I did read all the whining on here about it so I opened up the faction map for the first time in 1.5 years and saw all the Clans only on their home worlds. It's supposed to be some epic struggle between Clans and IS is it? Pretty pathetic if you ask me. As for my faction, i just had to pick a unit to get away from all the bads in solo que. Turns out the group que has just as little teamwork. Six 2-mans going solo instead of 12 Rambos. Oh well. Maybe this game will turn in to something more, or maybe it'll be the next Mechwarrior. Who knows.

I know he's going to think I'm picking on him(but I promise I'm not this was just the fastest example I could find but the forums are littered with examples), but just wanted to point out why you should always take anything said on the forums with a grain of salt and be careful who's "review" you base your own opinions on.

A player openly admits to not playing CW but then tries to explain the "problems" in CW and all of that. Instead of actually getting first-hand information they're relying on forum talk and others for information.

That is exactly why I think we as a community need to do more self-policing when it comes to players purposefully spreading misinformation and such. It hurts the player base.

[Jon Gotham]

Dimento Graven, on 13 January 2016 - 09:12 AM, said:

Funny how it was 'fine' when the Clans had NO IS 'mech that was coming close to their performance.

Now that we have a few that have ONE weapon system that might exceed Clan range, and ONE or two that have comparable survivability, they're here posting about it.

The over all technological (alpha power), survival, and speed trifecta is still in the Clan's favor for most 'mechs.

I would just like to make one point here about the alpha, wastage of damage is a very important factor don't forget. Our damage on the main is very efficient and precise. Hitting less hard but more efficiently(and more often) is better than splatting it all over the place^^
I agree with your first point to some degree, but balance currently still isn't right. Saying it's "fine" is still not right thing to say.
Question is, what should PGI do to actually balance the tech?

[Dimento Graven]

kamiko kross, on 13 January 2016 - 11:51 AM, said:

I would just like to make one point here about the alpha, wastage of damage is a very important factor don't forget. Our damage on the main is very efficient and precise. Hitting less hard but more efficiently(and more often) is better than splatting it all over the place^^
I agree with your first point to some degree, but balance currently still isn't right. Saying it's "fine" is still not right thing to say.
Question is, what should PGI do to actually balance the tech?

You can't balance IS vs. Clan, and preserve the "Clans always have better" aspect of the original lore, IF, you're going to maintain a 12v12 IS vs Clans CW.

You just can't. PGI has said they can't make any other combination work in CW, so let us forget that aspect of lore completely.

Next, you can't balance the game on a 'per weapon' scale as one side (the Clans) get a HUGE amount of base quirks:

Smaller, lighter, more durable XLs.
Smaller, lighter, harder hitting weapons (for the most part)
Longer reaching energy (except for a few specifically quirked 'mechs)
Smaller, lighter endo steel and ferro fibrous armor
Free case, no weight or crit slot required, built in to ever portion of every Clan 'mech
Functional TC
Changeable hard points
Generally lighter and/or smaller equipment (enhanced heatsinks are smaller, TC's smaller/lighter up to a point, can't recall for sure, but I think even Clan BAP and ECM are smaller/lighter than the IS equivalent).

The supposed balancing factors in the Clan tech are:
Most 'mechs can't change their engines.
Most 'mechs can't change their endo/ferro fibrous config.
Most energy weapons have longer burn durations.
Ballistics are effectively 'pulse based' in damage.

These are just what comes off the top of my head.

Ultimately though, what's got this game out of whack in my opinion is the following:

No knock down. While, yes, it's possible to 'grief' some player by repeatedly knocking him down, what the lack of knock down has done is allow mediocre pilots use very fast 'mechs and purposely ram them into other 'mechs blasting HUGE short range alphas (seriously, some of the alphas we're seeing on lights and mediums, for BOTH IS and Clans, are TOTALLY ridiculous) and not having to risk being, AT LEAST, knocked over when they smash into their target at 100+ kph... The significant advantage to lights is obvious.

No real heat affects table. Put in actual heat affects that kick in when heat starts building up into the higher ranges and we'll see a LOT less alpha vomiting taking place. Get above 50% heat capacity and have your 'mech start slowing down, and misfires of weapons, and shaking reticules, etc., will bring back heat management as REAL important factor in this game that can't be ignored for 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 percent of your total heat capacity for the entire match.

[adamts01]

Sandpit, on 13 January 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

tell me about it

I know he's going to think I'm picking on him(but I promise I'm not this was just the fastest example I could find but the forums are littered with examples), but just wanted to point out why you should always take anything said on the forums with a grain of salt and be careful who's "review" you base your own opinions on.

A player openly admits to not playing CW but then tries to explain the "problems" in CW and all of that. Instead of actually getting first-hand information they're relying on forum talk and others for information.

That is exactly why I think we as a community need to do more self-policing when it comes to players purposefully spreading misinformation and such. It hurts the player base.

Did you read my post on the other thread? You definitely didn't answer any of my questions. You blew off a valid argument because I haven't played that mode in a year (news flash, nothing has changed except I hear IS is OP whining). That's no worse than me blowing someone's argument off because they're not tier 1. I'll ask you again. What has changed? Maybe more **** players are making 12 mans. Out of hundreds of drops, my 12 mans have never lost to pugs. And that was almost entirely what we faced. There was absolutely zero challenge unless we went up against another unit. That's why I stopped a year ago. So seriously, what has changed? Enlighten me as to how things are better.

[mogs01gt]

All of this quirk BS would be nullified if we simply had melee combat...