296 replies to this topic

[Triordinant]

Skoll, on 13 January 2016 - 08:53 AM, said:

Look at the Battlefield games. Splitting the ques will kill the game further. I don't get why people keep advocating for this. It's counter productive to literally everything.

Not everything. Not having a public solo only queue nearly killed the game. If they hadn't made a solo only queue in 2013 there would be no MWO now.

Edited by Triordinant, 13 January 2016 - 10:12 AM.

[Mystere]

Bernard Matthaios, on 13 January 2016 - 09:35 AM, said:

I'll be honest, I haven't played a single CW game (internet/cpu issues). I only know from reading the countless topics on it. Just throwing it out there... What if they just implemented a drop tonnage system similar to the IS vs Clans to help balance things out some? Wouldn't that be better than completely separating the community?

Pug vs Pug -> same drop weight
Pug vs Group -> drop weight favoring pugs
Group vs Group -> same drop weight
IS vs IS or Clan vs Clan -> same drop weight
IS vs Clan -> drop weight favoring IS

What war did that? I am asking because CW is supposed to be a quasi simulation of war.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

JaxRiot, on 13 January 2016 - 10:06 AM, said:

Actually CW is nothing even close to a MMO Raid.

MMO Raids are PvE, not PvP.

Plus most are tiered. They have beginner/entry level Raids, and graduate up to the harder more difficult Raids. CW doesnt have any kind of scaling at all.

CW is more like Rated Battle Grounds / Warzones, or whatever name you want to put on them.

But even then, in MMO Rated PvP zones, CW still doesnt really compare.

In MMO's the Rated PvP matches require a player to be in a group before they can enter, and its a single que and you fight other Groups only.

Not like here where a Group can fight a Pug.

Also in Rated PvP, groups cant switch factions to find an advantage, and you cant avoid other Groups to farm PuGs.

So I respectfully disagree... CW is nothing like anything found in an MMO. Not Raids, or PvP

Eh. I haven't played an MMO besides ESO in about 8 years. And ESO PvP area (Cyrodil) doesn't have MM or require groups. In the older MMO days, we always called them raids.

If that's how it is now then I guess the closest comparison now is Planetside.

[Ultimax]

This can never happen.

You can't just continually split a player base amongst more, and more game modes and types - especially not a population this small..

The mode is intended for organized play and units, if people insist on dropping solo then that is their business.

There is a solo queue for them to play in if they don't want that, a mode that was already split off to accommodate them.

Then there is the team queue where small teams complain about bigger teams.

It never ends.



Small insular groups and solo players want everything to conform to them and their style of play instead of them going an joining proper units.

At its root its an over developed sense of entitlement.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 13 January 2016 - 10:17 AM.

[JaxRiot]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 13 January 2016 - 10:13 AM, said:

Eh. I haven't played an MMO besides ESO in about 8 years. And ESO PvP area (Cyrodil) doesn't have MM or require groups. In the older MMO days, we always called them raids.

If that's how it is now then I guess the closest comparison now is Planetside.

Ah ok, fair enough.

Different game experiences and different terminology between us.

No worries. I understand the point you were trying to make better now

[Mystere]

Screech, on 13 January 2016 - 10:02 AM, said:

I wouldn't split it, I would manage it better though. Make a group the seed for any drop. A group, 4 players minimum. would be needed to initiate any drop. All solo and groups players of 2-3 would be placed in a collective bin for their faction. They would then be used to fill out any drops as needed.

I think of it as core units that then are supplemented with auxiliary units. It would guarantee that in each match each side would have at least one group unit. It would hopefully speed up match making as all the solo and small groups would be able to fill in any planet for their side.

The problem is if there are very few units playing at that time. Solo players will be forced to wait indefinitely. I'd rather drop and take my chances.

Let us not forget, units are the equivalent of highly-trained soldiers, PUGs are the equivalent of local militia, and the former almost always crush the latter. In a quasi war simulation, that is how things should be.

Having said that, it can be mitigated by more imaginative game modes, maps, and overall game depth.

Creating a separate queue is the worst solution someone can think of.

Edited by Mystere, 13 January 2016 - 10:26 AM.

[Johnny Z]

sycocys, on 13 January 2016 - 10:09 AM, said:

Its really not an idea, its what is going to happen because groups and units don't actively attempt to fight each other and instead purposefully set up pug farming.

The groups wanting end game challenge mode and deciding to not actually use it as anything more than farming pugs mode is going to force Russ's hand if he wants to retain new players. $$$ is what is going to be the deciding factor at the end of the day, if PGI isn't getting any income turned over from new/free players the mode is going to become more casual friendly whether tryhards like it or not.

I don't have all the stats so if its a good idea then fine. Why not wait until after repair and rearm are in and 4 v 4 before splitting queues though.

The faction play isn't even half done. It seems a bit premature to split queues.

Also there is already a split queue alternative in game. Making the entire game split queues especially under the circumstances seems like a sucky idea.

Edited by Johnny Z, 13 January 2016 - 10:23 AM.

[Tyler Valentine]

Screech, on 13 January 2016 - 10:07 AM, said:

By faction I mean IS and Clan.

rgr

[Mystere]

Johnny Z, on 13 January 2016 - 10:19 AM, said:

I don't have all the stats so if its a good idea then fine. Why not wait until after repair and rearm are in and 4 v 4 before splitting queues though.

The faction play isn't even half done. It seems a bit premature to split queues.

Some people are using faulty logic and they don't even realize it. They want separate queues apparently because CW is not yet complete. It's the same logic that got us separate public queues in the first place with 4(?) different matchmaking algos already used.

[MadcatX]

Triordinant, on 13 January 2016 - 10:10 AM, said:

Not everything. Not having a solo only queue nearly killed the game. If they hadn't made a solo only in 2013 there would be no game now.

Hawken was supposed to kill this game. Star Citizen was supposed to kill this game (Maybe it will when it gets released in 5 years, talk about scope bloat). ECM was supposed to kill this game. The original P2W claims for clan mechs was supposed to kill this game. 3PV was supposed to kill this game. Whatever meta people disagreed with was supposed to kill this game. Consumables was supposed to kill this game. Ghost heat was supposed to kill this game.

Some folks need to stop crying wolf about everything. Don't like CW stomps then don't play CW, it's not like CW offers much more then quick play does to a new player anyways.

[Tyler Valentine]

Ultimatum X, on 13 January 2016 - 10:17 AM, said:

Small insular groups and solo players want everything to conform to them and their style of play...

At its root its an over developed sense of entitlement.

You could say the exact same thing about groups.

Do groups actually find fighting PUGs fun? I still feel like everyone is talking about what PUGs want and how PUGs need a queue so they don't get rolled but what about the groups? Dropping against PUGs in an organized group is easy to the point of boredom. Why don't more group players want split queues?

[sycocys]

Johnny Z, on 13 January 2016 - 10:19 AM, said:

I don't have all the stats so if its a good idea then fine. Why not wait until after repair and rearm are in and 4 v 4 before splitting queues though.

Honestly, because in 4-5 months when they plan to roll out the next actual CW updates - they and the groups will have successfully burned a lot of the newcomers from steam away from the game.

Even if that only amounts to a few thousands players - a few thousand times $10 for mechbays or $40 for a mechpack is a huge amount of lost short term revenue and a ton of long term revenue down the drains.

These players dropping in get a call to arms just to get farmed just doesn't seem to work for the new players, and they just get shat on by the vets farming them when they as why it is this way. Chances are, they are not going to stay even for solo queue if the community warfare/faction mode looks completely abysmal from the onset - and why would you want to join a unit if your first experiences with those players are dealing with total d-bags both in game and out?

Mystere, on 13 January 2016 - 10:26 AM, said:

Some people are using faulty logic and they don't even realize it. They want separate queues apparently because CW is not yet complete. It's the same logic that got us separate public queues in the first place with 4(?) different matchmaking algos already used.

CW, will never be complete. In 3 years it might be half done, but unlikely that PGI will continue to put much effort into it if groups and tryhards continue to drive away new customers.

[Mystere]

Tyler Valentine, on 13 January 2016 - 10:28 AM, said:

You could say the exact same thing about groups.

Do groups actually find fighting PUGs fun? I still feel like everyone is talking about what PUGs want and how PUGs need a queue so they don't get rolled but what about the groups? Dropping against PUGs in an organized group is easy to the point of boredom. Why don't more group players want split queues?

People are turning this into an "us vs. them" problem when the real problem is that CW is woefully incomplete and significantly lacks depth and immersion.

I am beginning to suspect some people have some kind of agenda against CW or MWO itself.

[sycocys]

Tyler Valentine, on 13 January 2016 - 10:28 AM, said:

You could say the exact same thing about groups.

Do groups actually find fighting PUGs fun? I still feel like everyone is talking about what PUGs want and how PUGs need a queue so they don't get rolled but what about the groups? Dropping against PUGs in an organized group is easy to the point of boredom. Why don't more group players want split queues?

This right here - is precisely the problem. Groups don't want to have to step up to that "challenge mode" on a consistent basis or they'd actually be setting up fights with other groups, having their instant drops (Hey no 15-20+ minute queue times!). They'd rather blame PGI and blame pugs than actually engage in competitive play.

[JaxRiot]

Mystere, on 13 January 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

What war did that? I am asking because CW is supposed to be a quasi simulation of war.

To be fair, comparing a video game to any actual war is really unfair. They both may have bang bangs, but they are worlds apart.

In one, people actually die and endure much pain and suffering. The other is for fun and entertainment.

And sure, MWO could be called a Quasi War Simulator, but at the end of the day its still just a video game.

And video games are supposed to be fair and balanced.

Im not saying that a PuG que is needed right now in CW, but I do think that there will come a day when it will be.

PGI is putting a lot of effort and time into building CW. I suspect that it will become the main game mode when it is finished if not sooner.

I dont think a main game mode would do well if it only catered to the Hard Core, and will more than likely need a strong casual player element.

But time will tell.

Edited by JaxRiot, 13 January 2016 - 10:36 AM.

[Mystere]

sycocys, on 13 January 2016 - 10:29 AM, said:

Honestly, because in 4-5 months when they plan to roll out the next actual CW updates - they and the groups will have successfully burned a lot of the newcomers from steam away from the game.

Even if that only amounts to a few thousands players - a few thousand times $10 for mechbays or $40 for a mechpack is a huge amount of lost short term revenue and a ton of long term revenue down the drains.

These players dropping in get a call to arms just to get farmed just doesn't seem to work for the new players, and they just get shat on by the vets farming them when they as why it is this way. Chances are, they are not going to stay even for solo queue if the community warfare/faction mode looks completely abysmal from the onset - and why would you want to join a unit if your first experiences with those players are dealing with total d-bags both in game and out?

Then the solution is a better message and player training/education. Instead, we get the usual knee-jerk "solutions": separate this, nerf that, remove that other thing, etc. <smh>

sycocys, on 13 January 2016 - 10:29 AM, said:

CW, will never be complete. In 3 years it might be half done, but unlikely that PGI will continue to put much effort into it if groups and tryhards continue to drive away new customers.

CW is barely even a skeleton at this point in time. It has to have more meat.

[Johnny Z]

Not on topic but not entirely off topic either but this has given the idea that it would be cool if some how the queue system put teams together to play against premades on Solaris some day. For lazy guys like me that cant be bothered with the "guild' politics and demands. A team of first rate solo players decided by skill rating vrs a premade team would be fun.

Just an idea.

More on topic. Long term I cant see the current group queue working at all. Maybe on Solaris. A group queue working on the faction map really is a question for the guys building the game that have all the details. Although chat like this may be helpfull to.

The main problem on the faction map at the moment is players throwing matches. Not teams vrs solos. Repair and rearm would at least partially fix this.

Edited by Johnny Z, 13 January 2016 - 10:42 AM.

[Mystere]

JaxRiot, on 13 January 2016 - 10:33 AM, said:

To be fair, comparing a video game to any actual war is really unfair. They both may have bang bangs, but they are worlds apart.

In one, people actually die and endure much pain and suffering. The other is for fun and entertainment.

And sure, MWO could be called a Quasi War Simulator, but at the end of the day its still just a video game.

And video games are supposed to be fair and balanced.

Im not saying that a PuG que is needed right now in CW, but I do think that there will come a day when it will be.

PGI is putting a lot of effort and time into building CW. I suspect that it will become the main game mode when it is finished if not sooner.

I dont think a main game mode would do well if it only catered to the Hard Core, and will more than likely need a strong casual player element.

Again the solution is more imaginative game modes paired with appropriate maps, all designed to add immersion and depth, while at the same time softening the blow for new players. That includes a more rational campaign system and faction organization tools.

This "Take 7+ planets for the win!" "campaign" system we have right now is not it, not even close.

This is not rocket science.

[Sandpit]

Is there any reason the other 3-4 threads about this and discussing this weren't good enough?
Do we REALLY have to repeat everything that's been said
again
every time a new thread is created?

[Johnny Z]

Mystere, on 13 January 2016 - 10:39 AM, said:

Again the solution is more imaginative game modes paired with appropriate maps, all designed to add immersion and depth, while at the same time softening the blow for new players. That includes a more rational campaign system and faction organization tools.

This &quot;Take 7+ planets for the win!&quot; &quot;campaign&quot; system we have right now is not it, not even close.

This is not rocket science.

That's a good idea to. Campaign rewards.

They absolutely must have capital captures to. Then everyone in that faction loses their faction until faction re-emergence.

Edited by Johnny Z, 13 January 2016 - 10:44 AM.