109 replies to this topic

[Tina Benoit]

Hello MechWarriors!

As you know, we are keeping the Alpine Peak map instead of removing it in replacement with the new upcoming Polar Highlands map (which is the next map to come!) and therefore we will not be planning to make any adjustment to the current Alpine Peak map except, for the Spawn Locations.

So I've been looking around the forums for feedback on your thoughts where the Spawn Points should be for Alpine Peak and so far I've gathered some of these concerns and feedback below...

- Conquest points should be more spread around.
- Skirmish spawns = unbalanced travel lanes.
- Team who spawns near the Mountain have a larger field of vision.
- The older spawns for Alpine Peak are preferred than current.
- Skirmish spawns should be rotated clockwise a bit.
- Spawns to avoid fights on the hill.

However I wasn't able to find actual spawn location feedback on where you would like to see these spawn points exactly. That's why I'm posting the map image below, so you can help us pin point and draw on it where you'd like to see them.

So go ahead and grab the image to draw on it and then you can re-post the image in this thread to share it!
Also feel free to just post the approx. grid coordinates if you don't want to use the image. All the feedback is appreciated.

Thank you very much!

[QueenBlade]

[Felis]

Perhaps each suggestion should mention for which gamemode(s) it is meant to be.

[Dagorlad13]

Just make it so all of the spawn points are equally far away from the hill in H9 / H10.

[Night Thastus]

The problem is that wherever you place the spawns, the fight will end up centralizing to one point. If you make the spawns randomized than fights become for more unpredictable. There's more on-your-feet thinking and matches get a lot more lively.

This map would benefit from it, but I think some others would certainly benefit too.

EDIT: But if that's impossible, at least make it so both teams are equally close to the hill, and can both get to it with the same ease/time.

Edited by Night Thastus, 13 January 2016 - 06:31 PM.

[Little Details]

Here you go, Tina - a whole thread on this topic... Alpine is even the first one. Thread is to show it's better to have multiple spawn locations so the maps don't play witih the same tactics 90% of the time, but there are still good single spawn selections to choose from that have some thought behind them.

http://mwomercs.com/...spawn-variants/
(credit to tarogato)

Edited by LT Satisfactory, 13 January 2016 - 06:41 PM.

[Hobo Dan]

Night Thastus, on 13 January 2016 - 06:30 PM, said:

The problem is that wherever you place the spawns, the fight will end up centralizing to one point. If you make the spawns randomized than fights become for more unpredictable. There's more on-your-feet thinking and matches get a lot more lively.

I love the idea of random spawn points and I think Alpine would be the perfect map to test this idea on since it is pretty big. Even if the points are not true random, but just several random variations it would make for some very interesting matches.

[Juju Shinobi]

Night Thastus, on 13 January 2016 - 06:30 PM, said:

The problem is that wherever you place the spawns, the fight will end up centralizing to one point. If you make the spawns randomized than fights become for more unpredictable. There's more on-your-feet thinking and matches get a lot more lively.

This map would benefit from it, but I think some others would certainly benefit too.

EDIT: But if that's impossible, at least make it so both teams are equally close to the hill, and can both get to it with the same ease/time.

I would love this, it would prevent fights always being the same. Maybe have certain set spawn points and randomize where people spawn each match, though ensure friendlies spawn near each other and not right next to enemies. Part of why the game is kind of stale is because you kind of do the same thing over and over again due to fixed spawns

EDIT: Please stop having each lance spawn 1km+ away from each other. Assaults get gimped by these stupid spawns way too many times. It does not and will not stop the deathball

Edited by JujuShinobi, 13 January 2016 - 06:51 PM.

[jay35]

Quote

- Conquest points should be more spread around.

Quite the opposite, actually. Conquest is the one mode on Alpine Peaks in its current state that is not terrible because the spawns are more focused around the important contest points and it's not just another battle over the I-10 hill.

The last thing we'd want is to spread things out in Conquest mode and create the same 5-minute-walk-to-battle that plagues the other two game modes without actually adding a benefit to it and generally just increasing the potential for Conquest to play out like the other two modes as an I-10 hill battle.

Really, Alpine Peaks would be a great map once we have more strategic game modes to play in public queue, such as realistic base assaults, resource retrieval, VIP escort, payload, capture the flag/beacon, etc.

If the game modes actually made use of its entire area in a meaningful and enjoyable way. i.e., not just spacing the conquest points further apart, but actually creating strategic gameplay elements that make use of the currently un-used portions of the map, we'd have a winner.

Edited by jay35, 13 January 2016 - 06:57 PM.

[Ionna Silver]

Came here to say that Conquest is fine. Hope collective wisdom will improve the rest (though after playing this map more recently, it seems fine).

[Kamikaze Viking]

Came here to link to Tarogato's thread on varying spawn points only to find that LT Satisfactory beat me to it.

Key here is that each mode should have multiple sets of spawns.
Lances should not spawn too far apart (introduced to stop deathballs, didn't work, just screwed over the slow mechs)
Opposing Spawns should be PAIRED specifically to encourage fights in specific areas (ie the halfway points between each team)
Spawns PAIRS should be randomly selected for 3-5 sets of spawns per map/mode.


If we can experiment with this on Alpine to start with and then once tested, we expand this concept onto the larger maps first and then the smaller ones last.

[HUBA]

Maybe you can make a experiment on this map. Don't spread out the Mechs, spawn them all in one sector. Also randomize the spawns from a set of 10 or more possible locations. The spawns should have enough cover and no LoS (line of sight) to each other. This would make it that you don't have to spent 2-3min to group up and go for the nearest spot where the enemy can be expected (the hill). You have to find the enemy first or just go out ballsy. There are for sure some spots that will give you an advantage but because you don't know where the enemy start and he will maybe reach this spot first it becomes more interesting and need different strategies in most cases. The reason why so many fight take place on the hill is because both teams reach them at a similar time and it is the nearest you can see and fight the enemy.

Edit: oh yes the conquest points are not that bad maybe just line them up from f5 to k9

Edited by HUBA, 13 January 2016 - 07:15 PM.

[Sereglach]

As pointed out before, one of the biggest and most glaring issues with Alpine peaks is the entire existence of the layout around "Murder Mountain" (aka, H/I 9/10 quadrant of grid squares). Spawn points should be shifted away from those with the intent of shifting the fight elsewhere. The map is large enough that if a game mode tends to push the fight to a different side of the map, there is still plenty of room for variety.

However a long term goal for fixing the map should be restructuring the terrain surrounding that quadrant. Possibly making more drawn out gradients that allow climbing up to the mountain top from any angle and not cutting off the southern half of the map would be a good place to start looking. Also one would probably want to consider adjusting the constant incline when moving from South to North across the map. While fluctuations are nice, the overwhelming elevation advantage on the north end of the map acts as a major force for driving the combat to that end.

Anyway, as far as working with the current map goes . . .

Skirmish

Spoiler

Team 1:
Alpha Lance - E4
Bravo Lance - C7
Charlie Lance - F13

Team 2:
Alpha Lance - L3
Bravo Lance - M8
Charlie Lance - L12

Reasoning: Currently Skirmish is almost always going to devolve into a rush for, and securing of, the mountain. However, in this scenario both teams are spread far apart and far from the mountain. Depending on where slower forces spawn at, the more desired point of combat will also shift, because both teams spawn locations are all scattered to the farthest reaches of the map. Strategic movements, scouting, and positioning will be a must; and this can drive plenty of combat scenarios away from the mountain.

Assault

Spoiler

Team 1:
Alpha Lance - M6
Bravo Lance - N7
Charlie Lance - M8
Base - M7

Team 2:
Alpha Lance - D7
Bravo Lance - E7
Charlie Lance - E6
Base - E6

Reasoning: Instead of making the battle from East to West, which distinctly favors the Eastern base over the Western base, we can shift the battle to one of North to South. With the locations more centralized and out of the way, the fight has more choices and avenues of approach. While the high ground around the mountain my provide some advantages in combat, neither side is able to provide a solid defense to their base from such ground. Just as added flavor, I'd consider picking up the wrecked mech carrier and moving it to where the Northern base would be, if possible.

Conquest

Spoiler

Team 1:
Alpha Lance - D10
Bravo Lance - F11
Charlie Lance - F13

Team 2:
Alpha Lance - K/L2
Bravo Lance - K4
Charlie Lance - J5

Cap Points:
Gamma - SE Corner of F11
Sigma - Center-West of J5
Kappa - Dead Center of M7
Epsilon - NW Corner of K12
Theta - NE Corner of G7

Reasoning: There are a number of small outposts on Alpine Peaks, but they never seem to see any sort of action. This setup makes these all the pivotal capture points for Conquest. It also serves as an added bonus of shifting the battle to the southern half of the map, and away from "Murder Mountain". The typical center of battle on the map has little to no easy access towards the other capture points. While sniper or missile support might want to set up shop to rain down supporting fire on the enemy, it otherwise eliminates the usual sink-hole of combat from the equation.

Edited by Sereglach, 13 January 2016 - 10:32 PM.

[EGG]

I posted this in the 'save alpine' thread but it bears repeating that there are currently two sets of spawns you can get on skirmish/assault for alpine.

This is the first set. If you start here as red team, you will have a much, much easier time making it up the hill if you go full peg at it. By the time the mediums get there, there will still only be blue team lights up top. If the blue team has their assaults spawn at the bottom area, they will have a hard time of it.



This second set of spawns is the infamous "red team can't get up the hill". Generally you have no chance of getting close to the hill before the blue team heavies are up there. If it's skirmish, you can try to move South or North and pull them out. If it's Assault, then moving South takes a long time, and runs the risk of a blue team light lance making a dash for your base. North via the radio tower is the most common option at this point.



In summary:

- Minor advantage to red on the top set of spawns
- Large advantage to blue on the bottom set of spawns
- Best way to figure out which set of spawns occurred is to see if you had a lance spawn in C6 for Left side, or H5 for Right side
- Alpine actually has been adjusted in the past, the saddle at E6/D6 that leads onto the left side of the map was made steeper around the time that pebblewarrior was introduced (so 1.5-2 years ago)

There's no reason why Alpine can't have a minor tweak again, they've given it one in the past. To my mind, all it needs is to be locked to the top set of spawns, and some minor fiddling with the map geometry. People have talked about a "tunnel" in the past, but it doesn't require anything that drastic.


Someone mentioned in the previous thread that back in CB there wasn't such a problem with H9 camping, part of this was probably that Right side lances would spill out over the Saddle area. Then the Saddle was raised to the point that nothing without jumpjets could get up it.

Edited by EGG, 13 January 2016 - 08:01 PM.

[GMan129]

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

ok so for conquest I think it's all fine. maaaybe move team 1's spawns to the left from where they are now so it's less natural to get that h7 overlook (though nobody seems to go for it in pugs anyways) but thats nbd, maybe bring the spawns tighter too, so that all 3 spawn in the few grids to the left of the current Bravo F6 spawn. im sure someone else has a 100% brilliant idea on how to make it better but im not particularly bothered by it

and then do pretty much the same spots for the other gamemodes too

[Jman5]

Here is a thought for Skirmish and Assault.



I was thinking about a way to create spawn points to completely negate the main mountain, but I couldn't find a spot on the map that completely satisfied me and wouldn't just devolve into race for that mountain. So I decided to give players a choice. You could still decide to rush the I10/H10 mountain and if you both left at the same time you should get to the mountain at around the same time if you take the fastest route.

Or...

You could go up the I11 H11 mountain where Bravo Lances spawn which allows you to shoot down on the main mountain if you can monopolize the location. But be careful. If the enemy takes the mountain path below you, you will not be able to shoot down on them.

A third alternative is you could rush straight at each other down the mountain path between I10 and H10. A risky strategy if your opponent has LRMs, but the fastest route to the enemy.


I wanted Bravo lance to spawn separately because they are always the mid-range weight class in solo queue giving them some mobility and firepower to take advantage of that mountain. Alpha and Charlie lance spawn together so the lights and assaults can stick together if they so choose. I tried to make sure the timing to strategic areas were close for the corresponding lance on the other team.

Anyway this is mostly theorycrafting and it's hard to tell what people will actually do if you give them these spawn points. I suspect many of them will simply charge the same mountain at least initially. But at the very least, this should help with the timing issue.

Edited by Jman5, 13 January 2016 - 08:07 PM.

[BladeSplint]

PLEASE just add some tunnels so brawlers don't get completely left out in the cold (literally). They don't have to look pretty or be furnished with buildings or anything. Brawlers need a route to close distance on Alpine.

See my post from forever ago on the subject, slightly outdated now that some maps have been changed:

https://www.reddit.c...ts_map_reworks/

[Elizander]

I'm actually fine with the conquest spawn points and capture points for Alpine.

[TygerLily]

Assault
Terrain features and initial proximity promote people moving more toward each other around the radio tower. Northern most lances are almost within immediate engagement long ranges and sensor sightlines. This initial combat/blips will help consolidate team movement to the north. Neither team is in the Southern "low ground" fighting the high ground in i9.



Conquest (Unchanged)

Fun as is, IMO. The Eastern side lances can capture Gamma, the other two lances race to consolidate and each side has two "easy" points (Eps N, Kappa S) with two contestable points to help push and pull the game (Sig, Theta).



Skirmish
Southern part of the map is like its own separate map. It has generally flat overall elevation with various hills for cover (similar to what Polar Highlands sounds like it is aiming for) which would make it a lot more fun and fair for the various ranges people bring.

The initial proximity will make cohesion in the south more likely with big terrain features blocking immediate access i9 for the Red Team. Blue Team also has long sightlines to attack Red if they attempt that strategy.

Also, Skirmish and Assault play similarly so having them occur on opposite sides of the map will keep the game fresh (much like what variable spawn points would accomplish).

Edited by TygerLily, 13 January 2016 - 10:22 PM.

[JernauM]

Please.

For the love of all that is good and wholesome.

Spawn each team's three lances in the same area.