778 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Mystere, on 14 January 2016 - 06:29 PM, said:

Actually, people who normally don't do such things might just do it out of spite this time around. It actually has a certain amount of twisted charm to it than just leaving silently. I think that is called "poisoning the well".

I think some don't realize the severity of the vindictiveness this community is capable of. It's sad that you even have to talk about stuff like that just to get PGI to read and listen to more than one section of the players at a time and not switch entire directions of the game every single time someone QQs about something.

Pick a dam focus and direction and stick with it. MMO environments change constantly, that's not unusual. What's unusual is a game constantly shifting the entire focus and premise of the game every time one of the dev team seems to get a wild hair where the sun don't shine or get in a tizzy over something.

This goes all the way back to collisions
months community says "collisions are broken, please fix"
months it's PGI "huh?"
Paul get publicly humiliated due to the knockdown mechanics and they're wiped out and written off.


I can tell it's not meant to be "deceptive", but that's exactly how it comes across to some in your community, then it comeds off as incompetent to others, then it comes off as "wishy washy" and catering to the latest QQ to others.

It's not a "damned if you do and dmaned if you don't"

It's a "If you'd bother to read the constructive posts on YOUR forums you'd understand that most of us (those in units as well) agree with you AND those wanting to stop getting rolled up"

but the only ideas that ever seem to come from the PGI think tank are thsoe that involve punishing units and groups.

Nobody in the little Marik community we've built does that kind of thing. Don't punish US because some players are dbags. Punish THEM, directly if you have to, but I'm tried of getting stuck footing the bill for the BS they dish out. That's a community and rule issue, not a unit and group issue.

It's beyond frustrating to literally have a small community of people who come together and donate hundreds and more plus countless hours to build a place for units and to help congregate players because you, PGI, are quite simply horrible when it comes to devloping social tools, so we picked up the slack for you.

We created TS servers
We created chat rooms
We created websites

Not you

Now you're telling us that we're to be punished for doing that for the game and community. That's where this animosity, anger, and frustration come from.


It would be no different that me coming to you tomorrow PGI and saying ok you can do your world championship but you're only allowed $10 in prizes now.
He that's a compromise right? It lets you have a championship right?

Same kind of principle here. We're tired of feeling like that whole "target audience" crap again. We're tired of helping build a community when you guys do nothing BUT put roadblock after roadblock in front of us for doing so.

If you want a bigger community you better start learning how to build a community first, because this just isn't how you do it. You've gone out of your way to make this game rely heavily on 11 other teammates and then deliberately and purposefully do everything you can to keep those players on that team from actually feeling like they're part of a team, let alone part of a consistent universe campaign or community.

You do everything you can to keep players from being able to communicate and congregate in a team based game and can't seem to figure out why new players have such a hard time adjusting to the game.

Keep scapegoating units and groups and premades and whatever other bandwagon you want, it won't change anything. The reason you get "less" complaints isn't because it's "good" it's because the ones trying to get you to segregate the population so they CAN club seals relentlessly stop complaining.

Bonger Bob, on 14 January 2016 - 06:29 PM, said:

I for one welcome the changes , and yes, ill have the petty "I told you so" moment of smug satisfaction now, i did say IT WILL HAPPEN EVENTUALLY , im shocked though, its happening a lot sooner than i thought it would.

I imagine you would. Makes it easier for you to kick around "scrubs" (at least that's what you call them)

[pwnface]

so... is the solo unit-less queue going to have impact on planetary control or not? If so, prepare to see alt accounts farming the living hell out of solo PUGs. 4000 damage matches for everyone.

[Wintersdark]

Sandpit, on 14 January 2016 - 06:17 PM, said:

what
the f*ck

really?
this is your solution?
charge big units with billions of cbills while destroying smaller and mid size units

wtf is wrong with you?
seriously

Do you see ANY other freaking game out there causing players this much stupid grief over wanting to form a dam team with friends?

wait, me? None of this is my idea.

I'm going to assume by 'you' you meant Russ.

How does it destroy small units, though? It's a scaling cost, so presumably cheap for little units, and only expensive for large ones. One would assume, anyways.

I don't see a way around that, though, if you're splitting the queues. Need to ensure unit hopping is less profitable than just playing in and against units.

[Sandpit]

pwnface, on 14 January 2016 - 06:50 PM, said:

so... is the solo unit-less queue going to have impact on planetary control or not? If so, prepare to see alt accounts farming the living hell out of solo PUGs. 4000 damage matches for everyone.

Russ is convinced this is going to stop the farming

[MischiefSC]

pwnface, on 14 January 2016 - 06:39 PM, said:

I'm having serious regrets about purchasing a year of premium time recently. The apathy shown by PGI for their game is actually quite depressing.

I'm a old-school BT fan. The Maddy, Whammy et al reseen was a big deal for me. However I canceled my preorders right before MAD release because I saw some of this coming and realized I didn't want to drop a couple hundred on Reseen if I wasn't going to play the game much longer.

I was excited for CW 3 - this sure killed that *****.

This isn't a hard concept. People do what they are incented to do and what leads to "winning". Stubborn people will chase incentives but want to be rewarded for what they are already doing.

There is always a lot of pressure to reduce standards to the lowest denominator. The problem is that this immediately then lowers the lowest common denominator as all the people who were only doing 50% of X (X being average level of effort to produce success) will now happily drop to 50% of the new lower standard and begin complaining that it needs lowered again.

This is called a "race to the bottom". It's a common problem in any metrics driven environment. There is a vocal segment that will always push for things to be easier and "more accessible". The moment standards are lowered then performance drops to suit and you've set an expectation of the same compensation for less effort.

People want money for nothing and a gold medal just for showing up. You let that group drive your standards and you are jumping into a bottomless pit.

Edited by MischiefSC, 14 January 2016 - 06:57 PM.

[Sandpit]

Wintersdark, on 14 January 2016 - 06:54 PM, said:

wait, me? None of this is my idea.

I'm going to assume by 'you' you meant Russ.

How does it destroy small units, though? It's a scaling cost, so presumably cheap for little units, and only expensive for large ones. One would assume, anyways.

I don't see a way around that, though, if you're splitting the queues. Need to ensure unit hopping is less profitable than just playing in and against units.

no I know it's not your idea, i was just speaking in general. I've just been in a ranty mood since this info came out and charging units just to let a new member in is probably one of the single most stupid ideas I've EVER heard in this context.

Sorry, that's a harsh word to use i know, but that..... that is just asinine..

I mean seriously... you're going to charge units for recruiting new members and helping build and foster the community?
In a game where you can't play by yourself
In a game that requires you to play on a team
In a game that encourages you to have tags as one of the only things to do in CW is flip planets
In a game that relies heavily on teamwork and coordination
In a game that is built to help rely on and reward loyalist units

Yes, that makes tons of sense...

[Wintersdark]

pwnface, on 14 January 2016 - 06:50 PM, said:

so... is the solo unit-less queue going to have impact on planetary control or not? If so, prepare to see alt accounts farming the living hell out of solo PUGs. 4000 damage matches for everyone.

Why? Take the planet with your unit, gain financially from controlling it. Take the planet solo, gain nothing but match rewards. Why bother running an alternative account to do that? That's a heck of a lot of work for no rewards.

Does anyone really care that much about how much their faction controls over tangible rewards and your unit name on planets? Sincere question, this. God knows, I wouldn't bother when taking planets with my unit gets me better rewards and "my name in lights".

I'd assume (this is assumption, but an educated one) that the solo queue and unit queues would be separated via being on different attack lanes, so solo plays can contribute to faction success, but not interfere with unit control.

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 14 January 2016 - 06:56 PM, said:

I'm a old-school BT fan. The Maddy, Whammy et al reseen was a big deal for me. However I canceled my preorders right before MAD release because I saw some of this coming and realized I didn't want to drop a couple hundred on Reseen if I wasn't going to play the game much longer.

I was excited for CW 3 - this sure killed that *****.

I wish you'd spread the news

Yea, I have no excitement for CW, Phase 3, or MWO anymore.

What I have and play today is as good as it's going to get apparently. I hope you're right, I really do in that it doesn't mean it will be as bad as it sounds like, but at this point, based on everything that's come out?

Charging units for recruiting?!!?!?

bwahahahahah
good one!

oh wait
they're seriously considering that...

[Deathlike]

MischiefSC, on 14 January 2016 - 06:56 PM, said:

This is called a "race to the bottom". It's a common problem in any metrics driven environment. There is a vocal segment that will always push for things to be easier and "more accessible". The moment standards are lowered then performance drops to suit and you've set an expectation of the same compensation for less effort.

I don't think the advocation of certain things (like, a better NPE) would qualify for this.. but generally speaking, the kinds of things suggested for CW are usually in line with "lowering difficulty" and inevitably "lowering the overall purpose/goal".

Some people take progression for granted... (having low C-Bill payouts at one point in the Paulconomy is rather problematic when you're not even at a more capable point of taking advantage of it).

[Wintersdark]

Sandpit, on 14 January 2016 - 06:55 PM, said:

Russ is convinced this is going to stop the farming

Please, in as non ranty a way as possible (I'm not pushing Russ's solution as ideal! Just trying to be as impatrtial as I can and learn here!)

What is the alternative? There just aren't enough unit players to make CW really work well.

There are LOTS of solo players who want to play.

The existing solo experience (for those who don't have a lot of experience, I get its awesome for people like me) is awful.

CW needs more bodies. Telling people to just join units doesn't work. It's never worked, will never work. Eventually, a good number will join units, particularly as they learn that controlling worlds as a unit has actual payouts. But those people need to stick around and play long enough to do that.

Charging people to join units is stupid. It is. But its necessary to prevent seal clubbing in a split queue scenario. The cost would be miniscule for small units (where it doesn't really matter if they do), and large units will have no trouble funding it, if not abusing things.

What better solution do you propose?

[Sandpit]

Deathlike, on 14 January 2016 - 07:06 PM, said:

I don't think the advocation of certain things (like, a better NPE) would qualify for this.. but generally speaking, the kinds of things suggested for CW are usually in line with "lowering difficulty" and inevitably "lowering the overall purpose/goal".

Some people take progression for granted... (having low C-Bill payouts at one point in the Paulconomy is rather problematic when you're not even at a more capable point of taking advantage of it).

If it continues then MWO is going to be nothing but a boring brawl fest of robots.

I'll continue playing because I have friends here and the mech combat is enjoyable but I'm not going to bother donating time and money to a game that does nothing but try to make sure you CAN'T build a community.

Too many other options out there in the gaming market. Just consider me another free player from here on out. I gotta save money after all, next thing you know you'll have to spend MC to get a unit tag. That will be a great way to do things.

[AEgg]

Sandpit, on 14 January 2016 - 07:01 PM, said:

I wish you'd spread the news

Yea, I have no excitement for CW, Phase 3, or MWO anymore.

What I have and play today is as good as it's going to get apparently. I hope you're right, I really do in that it doesn't mean it will be as bad as it sounds like, but at this point, based on everything that's come out?

Charging units for recruiting?!!?!?

bwahahahahah
good one!

oh wait
they're seriously considering that...

Think about it this way. Most games don't have any sort of clan functionality built in at all, it's all done entirely by the players and entirely outside of the game. I actually can't think of any other games that do other than MMOs.

The same is possible here, have a general unit containing all of your players, and a more elite group of players actually members of said unit ingame.

Think of ingame units as a bonus over the zero support clans get in most games. If you go about it that way, it's not a terrrible idea to charge units to add members, primarily because otherwise, we very well may end up with just a few mega-units holding all the planets to maximize profits.

That said, there are probably better ways of solving that problem.

[Deathlike]

Wintersdark, on 14 January 2016 - 07:07 PM, said:

Please, in as non ranty a way as possible (I'm not pushing Russ's solution as ideal! Just trying to be as impatrtial as I can and learn here!)

What is the alternative? There just aren't enough unit players to make CW really work well.

There are LOTS of solo players who want to play.

The existing solo experience (for those who don't have a lot of experience, I get its awesome for people like me) is awful.

CW needs more bodies. Telling people to just join units doesn't work. It's never worked, will never work. Eventually, a good number will join units, particularly as they learn that controlling worlds as a unit has actual payouts. But those people need to stick around and play long enough to do that.

Charging people to join units is stupid. It is. But its necessary to prevent seal clubbing in a split queue scenario. The cost would be miniscule for small units (where it doesn't really matter if they do), and large units will have no trouble funding it, if not abusing things.

What better solution do you propose?

I'm not in the business of telling people to join units - rather they join the faction hub to enjoy the company.. and only IF AND ONLY IF they are interested in joining a unit... that's up to them. We simply need more bodies to drop in CW, with better management instead of getting such management "after the fact" (like, when you can't help the guy set up his dropdeck to work with the rest of the team).

[Sandpit]

Wintersdark, on 14 January 2016 - 07:07 PM, said:

Please, in as non ranty a way as possible (I'm not pushing Russ's solution as ideal! Just trying to be as impatrtial as I can and learn here!)

What is the alternative? There just aren't enough unit players to make CW really work well.

There are LOTS of solo players who want to play.

The existing solo experience (for those who don't have a lot of experience, I get its awesome for people like me) is awful.

CW needs more bodies. Telling people to just join units doesn't work. It's never worked, will never work. Eventually, a good number will join units, particularly as they learn that controlling worlds as a unit has actual payouts. But those people need to stick around and play long enough to do that.

Charging people to join units is stupid. It is. But its necessary to prevent seal clubbing in a split queue scenario. The cost would be miniscule for small units (where it doesn't really matter if they do), and large units will have no trouble funding it, if not abusing things.

What better solution do you propose?

I've laid out several solutions
http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

That's one that seems to be met with no real resistance and sure as hell doesn't punish units or groups.

The existing solo experience is awful for some because PGI won't stop being lazy and actually control their campaign map if you want to get real down and dirty about it. Everything in that thread and that post fixes every single thing PGI is trying to fix and is far simpler to implement, isn't intrusive, doesn't punish a segment of the players, and requires ZERO extra coding since all of the mechanics are already in place.

Trust me, there's no "anger" or "animosity" towards you at all in this reply, I'm a bit short and curt because I'm responding here, responding on twitter, responding on marik site, as well as trying to eat some dinner.

Russ and the rest of PGI aren't the only ones who spend late nights trying to help improve this game and community. Lots of us sitting right here on the forums do it regularly.
Guess what else most of thsoe players do.
Drop in units

[Mystere]

AEgg, on 14 January 2016 - 04:18 PM, said:

This is easily solved by weighting the queues.

If solo queue matches are 50% of the result and group queue matches are 50%, you will always lose if you don't field any groups (because the best you could possibly reach is 50% wins).

The same can be done with tiers, but tier would have to be a meaningful rating first.

So first CW gets separate queues. Then it gets a tier-based matchmaker. What's next? CW is renamed Solaris?

Brilliant!

[pwnface]

Wintersdark, on 14 January 2016 - 07:00 PM, said:

Why? Take the planet with your unit, gain financially from controlling it. Take the planet solo, gain nothing but match rewards. Why bother running an alternative account to do that? That's a heck of a lot of work for no rewards.

Does anyone really care that much about how much their faction controls over tangible rewards and your unit name on planets? Sincere question, this. God knows, I wouldn't bother when taking planets with my unit gets me better rewards and "my name in lights".

I'd assume (this is assumption, but an educated one) that the solo queue and unit queues would be separated via being on different attack lanes, so solo plays can contribute to faction success, but not interfere with unit control.

We don't know that the solo and unit queues would be on different attack lanes. Currently, every faction has an attack and defend option against every faction that borders it. Is PGI going to make it so that there are 2 attack/defend options per border? Unlikely. Will they make it so that only units can defend and only solos can attack or will they close off an entire border to one queue?

There are a lot of unknowns here, I guess we'll find out. I think closing off attack / defend lanes to unit queue doesn't make sense because then nobody will be able to get tags on the planet. Having the lanes open to everyone but simply splitting the queue invites a lot of exploitation.

If your faction is winning all the unit queue battles on a planet but is losing all the solo queue battles, it will be incredibly difficult to take a planet. People would sign on alt accounts to win matches in solo queue to help the overall conquest of said planet.

[pwnface]

Mystere, on 14 January 2016 - 07:13 PM, said:

So first CW gets separate queues. Then it gets a tier-based matchmaker. What's next? CW is renamed Solaris?

Brilliant!

If they add a matchmaker into CW with it's current population, they'll need to completely eliminate planetary selection for attack / defend. I don't know about anyone else, but if CW becomes a glorified "Quick Play" game mode I'm done with this game.

[Mystere]

Fen Tetsudo, on 14 January 2016 - 04:59 PM, said:

That's interesting. Because just last night everyone was insisting they don't *want* to farm pugs, the devs are making them do it. But now that people are given the option to not farm pugs, many here are threatening to go out of their way to farm pugs. Why, its almost like they were never being honest to begin with. Imagine that.

Ahem! Did you ever consider that those people were honest, but someone outside of that conversation will do so?

Oh! You did not think of that?

[Sandpit]

AEgg, on 14 January 2016 - 07:09 PM, said:

Think about it this way. Most games don't have any sort of clan functionality built in at all, it's all done entirely by the players and entirely outside of the game. I actually can't think of any other games that do other than MMOs.

The same is possible here, have a general unit containing all of your players, and a more elite group of players actually members of said unit ingame.

Think of ingame units as a bonus over the zero support clans get in most games. If you go about it that way, it's not a terrrible idea to charge units to add members, primarily because otherwise, we very well may end up with just a few mega-units holding all the planets to maximize profits.

That said, there are probably better ways of solving that problem.

you can't do that though
We have exactly the format you're describing set up in Marik on our website and TS server. We have 6-7 active loyalist units there ranging in membership size from 6 up into 60+

That's why Marik premades are almost always a PUG. We find whatever players are online and drop with them. We are the biggest PUG unit in this game I'd wager.

Point being, we're already set up like that and I still don't see it being viable

It's going to do nothing but piss those types of groups and players off. They're sick and tired of being made into this pariah and boogeyman because someone wasn't quite as good at MWO as they thought they were so they create a scapegoat to blame for it.

I'm telling you, it's not the group queue that will suffer, well it might the more we find out the more I see groups finally saying "F this" and moving on but that's here nor there in this context, it's the solo queue that's going to find out the hard way that it wasn't groups, units, premades, MM, or anything else causing the majority of those roflstomps

If that were the case I wouldn't see them quite commonly in the public queue at Tier 3. You'd think they would be a rarity, but they're not. They're pretty common at times. So that tells me new players are still getting rolled up.

The ones complaining about it weren't new players in Tier 5. The new players in Tier 5 log on, get stomped 5 times in a row, and uninstall.
The ones complaining were vets that know how to play, were able to improve their PSR against those newer and low tier players early on, and now never have to play with them on their team again if I had to guess. Along with those who really do club seals because the only thing they did was tank their PSR knowing PGI can't do anything about it and groups aren't there to help mitigate it, so now the club with reckless abandon.

[Wintersdark]

Deathlike, on 14 January 2016 - 07:10 PM, said:

I'm not in the business of telling people to join units - rather they join the faction hub to enjoy the company.. and only IF AND ONLY IF they are interested in joining a unit... that's up to them. We simply need more bodies to drop in CW, with better management instead of getting such management "after the fact" (like, when you can't help the guy set up his dropdeck to work with the rest of the team).

Yeah, see, I'm all for this.

But it's a chicken and egg thing. We ABSOLUTELY need better management tools. But we also need a system for helping the throngs of solo players not have a horrible experience, and "join the faction hub" as it stands isn't very practical for most folks for a variety of reasons.

They're just trying CW, seeing "Wow, that really sucks getting wafflestomped into oblivion by obviously premade teams" and bailing on it pretty much just as fast.

Without the numbers, CW sucks for everyone. So, a middle ground needs to be found.