778 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Bonger Bob, on 15 January 2016 - 12:18 AM, said:

So quick to box anyone wanting an end to the ******** into this category.

I for one am ecstatic that ill be able to que without having to go into matches where the opposing side is filled with solo scrubs devoid of team work that presents zero challenge for that round. Ill love the fact that units / groups get to face a challenge and a win holding meaning other than free C-bills.

about the only problem i have with it is IF ( we don't know yet ?? ) the solo ques still get to influence the campaign map to the same extent, and if they get the same C-bill rewards, this i don't support.

I can agree with all of that. I'd love for solo queue to earn up to rank 6 to get 2 free mech bays per faction.

However I'm not sure how you can then have the newbies in this environment actually get the opportunity to play with (and against) the coordinated people who can help them, if they want, get actually good at the game. Join a unit or not; I don't care. I've never been one for 'join a unit or die', I don't care if someone joins a unit or not. You don't need to in order to learn and get good at the game (which includes learning to communicate and coordinate).

However if you never meet those people you never learn. My skills in CW increased dramatically due, almost exclusively, to getting the **** farmed out of me by NS and SJx and KCom. I would pug against them until they quit dropping and I picked up a lot from playing against people who were better at the game than me.

I learn nothing by playing against bads and on a team full of bads. The only thing that teaches you is bad habits.

The other stuff though? Unit fees and crap? That's terrible. Toxic. Will breed nothing but bad feelings and frustration. This isn't a job - this is a game, played with friends. That's not a good fix in any way.

[TheCharlatan]

Thing is, i consider "playing badly" a playstyle.
It's like playing soccer badly in my country. Everyone plays it with friends. Most are terrible at it. They play it anyway.
Some want to play it seriously, they go at soccer school, maybe become professional.
It's a choice. Imagine if people playing professionaly could go to the guys fooling around with a ball and say "no guys, you have to play well or go home."
What fooling around does is create some people who plays with friends, and discover the drive to "get gud". Those people are the ones that will search training from units. The others are those that don't. You don't want to meet them, they don't want to meet you. Why do you have to play together?
I'd be completely ok if "pug queue" could not capture planets. That seems right.

[Bonger Bob]

MischiefSC, on 15 January 2016 - 12:09 AM, said:

That's not what it is. Communication and coordination are skills. Just like aim and positioning. Pugs communicate and coordinate as well as premade teams and beat premade teams. I know, I see it all the time.


This is just introducing a locked T5 PSR protected queue in for CW.

To a degree I'm good with it, so long as playing in that queue doesn't take worlds or really compete with win/loss in CW overall, simply gives participation awards and provides perks to the people playing in the grown-up queue.

It also segregates people who are bad at the game from the people who could, if wanted, help them get better. That's not even about joining a unit, just seeing how communication and coordination work in the game to an advantage.

Most the people in most drops have tags. Just about everyone in every unit pugs, and they are the pugs that make up the drops that can and do get stomped by better coordinated teams or, conversely, communicate and coordinate to win against teams made up of people with the same tags on.

This isn't about 'protecting a playstyle' though unless you consider 'playing badly' a playstyle.

There is already a PSR protected facet of the game. Pug queue. While I agree, firmly, that CW needs a training environment you can't have the training environment actually flip worlds and the like.

there is no ( and as far as we are aware there will be no ) introduction of a match maker utilizing PSR brought in with the split ques being proposed. They are very separate things. Split ques are not PSR rated matches.

and perhaps gunboat diplomacy with your 3rd party voip coordinated team wasn't the best option to recruit and train. There are other methods you can still recruit and train with, while not destroying a players morale and then being happy with the end results of free meals and distorted CW campaign map results.

changing things to try and improve on whats been occurring is better than continuing to do nothing and not presenting any solutions to a problem you refuse and pretend to recognize exists. The end result is yet to be seen and the que separation can't be compared to the quickplay ques history, because there are differences. There is no regional server selection, there is an altered game mode factoring in different build and game mechanics, and there are different player types in the mix than before. Most notably, there is no PSR factored match making of any sort. Just a split que.

[smokefield]

your analogy is wrong.

we want fast games. when we get a game we want it to be challanging. i want to work for it, to have the adrenaline pumping, i wan t to feel involved in a live or die battle. I want a good game.

there are a couple of things that ruin this : one is splitting the player base, which is not that big anyway. no more fast games. The second is people who do not want to improve and learn. They just want to be there and ruin others game. and same applies to your analogy. thats why when we were playing soccer the teams were chosen...and if you are one of those players never giving your best..you were the last one chose...if we were short. I have seen new players coming in and learning the game in a couple of months...because they focused on becoming better, they asked, they learned..and I know veterans that play from day one who are crappy players cause "they have their style". yeah..no one invites them in team drops. who do you want to be ? the learning pug or the "all knowing" veteran ? who do you think has most fun in the end, the one dropping with hsi team and friends or the one dropping with "his style" ?

[Bonger Bob]

MischiefSC, on 15 January 2016 - 12:25 AM, said:

I can agree with all of that. I'd love for solo queue to earn up to rank 6 to get 2 free mech bays per faction.

However I'm not sure how you can then have the newbies in this environment actually get the opportunity to play with (and against) the coordinated people who can help them, if they want, get actually good at the game. Join a unit or not; I don't care. I've never been one for 'join a unit or die', I don't care if someone joins a unit or not. You don't need to in order to learn and get good at the game (which includes learning to communicate and coordinate).

However if you never meet those people you never learn. My skills in CW increased dramatically due, almost exclusively, to getting the **** farmed out of me by NS and SJx and KCom. I would pug against them until they quit dropping and I picked up a lot from playing against people who were better at the game than me.

I learn nothing by playing against bads and on a team full of bads. The only thing that teaches you is bad habits.

The other stuff though? Unit fees and crap? That's terrible. Toxic. Will breed nothing but bad feelings and frustration. This isn't a job - this is a game, played with friends. That's not a good fix in any way.

well from the sounds of it you have issues with the lack of team building and management tools built into the game client, and are trying to transpose those problems to the split ques debate. Either that or you like trying to force feed people your training ??

you can lead a horse to water, you can't make it drink.

give up on this tired belief your clinging to ...... some people are just not going to change to conform to how you have adapted to missing functions within the game client. Work to have PGI add these things to the client, then get upset when people don't use them, while they are missing, you can't expect to have ALL players adapt the way you have. As you pointed out, this isn't a job, its a game, some people are only going to do what is easy and convenient for them.

[Kuritaclan]

Just in case. I apply officially for a Spot in the CW Group Queue without a TAG added to my Name. I'm willingly to make the 12th wheel in an 11man or a 6th in a 5+6man.

[Bonger Bob]

smokefield, on 15 January 2016 - 12:38 AM, said:

your analogy is wrong.

we want fast games. when we get a game we want it to be challanging. i want to work for it, to have the adrenaline pumping, i wan t to feel involved in a live or die battle. I want a good game.

there are a couple of things that ruin this : one is splitting the player base, which is not that big anyway. no more fast games. The second is people who do not want to improve and learn. They just want to be there and ruin others game. and same applies to your analogy. thats why when we were playing soccer the teams were chosen...and if you are one of those players never giving your best..you were the last one chose...if we were short. I have seen new players coming in and learning the game in a couple of months...because they focused on becoming better, they asked, they learned..and I know veterans that play from day one who are crappy players cause "they have their style". yeah..no one invites them in team drops. who do you want to be ? the learning pug or the "all knowing" veteran ? who do you think has most fun in the end, the one dropping with hsi team and friends or the one dropping with "his style" ?

this is far less of a split than you give it credit for.

There is no PSR being factored in, in any way what so ever, it will be open to T1 as much as T5. ( as far as we are aware )

There is no regional server options to select/deselect.( again, as far as we are aware at this point )

There is no population issue, we are at record levels for players according to Russ, highest ever, if ever there was a time to split a que and not have increased wait times, this is it.

and there are better methods for training or recruiting player than the end of a gun barrel.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Ridiculous.

1. Having or not having a unit tag is no indicator of player skill or ability to play as a team.
2. This will enable griefers to drop tags and go sealclubbing.
3. Longer wait times with no guarantee of increased match quality (see above)

and finally...

4. I wanna play with my friends from a unit - <gets a tag>, I wanna play with my friends without a unit - <drops a tag>, I wanna play with my friends from a unit - <gets a tag>, I wanna play with my friends without a unit - <drops a tag>,I wanna play with my friends from a unit - <gets a tag>, I wanna play with my friends without a unit - <drops a tag>,I wanna play with my friends from a unit - <gets a tag>, I wanna play with my friends without a unit - <drops a tag>,I wanna play with my friends from a unit - <gets a tag>, I wanna play with my friends without a unit - <drops a tag>,I wanna play with my friends from a unit - <gets a tag>, I wanna play with my friends without a unit - <drops a tag>

[MischiefSC]

TheCharlatan, on 15 January 2016 - 12:28 AM, said:

Thing is, i consider "playing badly" a playstyle.
It's like playing soccer badly in my country. Everyone plays it with friends. Most are terrible at it. They play it anyway.
Some want to play it seriously, they go at soccer school, maybe become professional.
It's a choice. Imagine if people playing professionaly could go to the guys fooling around with a ball and say "no guys, you have to play well or go home."
What fooling around does is create some people who plays with friends, and discover the drive to "get gud". Those people are the ones that will search training from units. The others are those that don't. You don't want to meet them, they don't want to meet you. Why do you have to play together?
I'd be completely ok if "pug queue" could not capture planets. That seems right.

So we agree with that completely. I'm 100% on board with that. Support it, approve of it, would vote for it.

The problem is that it's not what's being offered by PGI, at least as far as they've said. Pug queue will capture worlds - the only difference is that unit tags get you MC rewards for worlds taken, which will create its own set of exploits.

Because PGI is creating that specific problem they want to force big groups to break up because otherwise everyone is just going to merge into super units for their share of that sweet free MC. So they force big units to break up! Which, in turn, will just piss people off and drive players into finding every possible way to exploit it.

You know what won't happen? The regular mid-sized groups won't get a tag. Ever. So for them, why not just quit, go solo queue and make cbills farming bads?

It is a system designed to fail and piss everyone off.

Don't do MC rewards for tagging worlds. Give payouts for 'wins' you got on worlds that get taken and are still owned 72 hours later. Mercs get 1 single big payout 72 hours later, loyalist units get a small payout every 3 days or week or whatever forever, so in the long run being a loyalist who plays a lot gives more rewards. That's a good thing. Second, holding worlds for the long term generates rewards. That's a good thing.

Then give end of match bonuses based on who you fought, so if 228 beats MS they make more money than beating a mix of average unit tag players. That will promote the big, good units seeking each other out.

There's great ways to fix CW. The suggested ones really aren't on that list.

Bonger Bob, on 15 January 2016 - 12:41 AM, said:

well from the sounds of it you have issues with the lack of team building and management tools built into the game client, and are trying to transpose those problems to the split ques debate. Either that or you like trying to force feed people your training ??

you can lead a horse to water, you can't make it drink.

give up on this tired belief your clinging to ...... some people are just not going to change to conform to how you have adapted to missing functions within the game client. Work to have PGI add these things to the client, then get upset when people don't use them, while they are missing, you can't expect to have ALL players adapt the way you have. As you pointed out, this isn't a job, its a game, some people are only going to do what is easy and convenient for them.

So I'm find with bads being bad. I don't expect anyone to adapt. I am against giving them the same rewards as those who do.

That's it. That simple. It's not unreasonable. You don't get an Olympic Gold Medal for showing up and failing to qualify; you get it for winning.

The additional punishments for units playing as units? Also bad.

[Bonger Bob]

MischiefSC, on 15 January 2016 - 01:11 AM, said:

..............

Don't do MC rewards for tagging worlds. Give payouts for 'wins' you got on worlds that get taken and are still owned 72 hours later. Mercs get 1 single big payout 72 hours later, loyalist units get a small payout every 3 days or week or whatever forever, so in the long run being a loyalist who plays a lot gives more rewards. That's a good thing. Second, holding worlds for the long term generates rewards. That's a good thing.

Then give end of match bonuses based on who you fought, so if 228 beats MS they make more money than beating a mix of average unit tag players. That will promote the big, good units seeking each other out.

amazing, the change that was proposed by some players then gets shite-canned by others without offering solutions to the problem, to have PGI say the change IS happening, and now we have those same shite-canners presenting solutions to the problems.......

forgive me for now not giving a shite myself.

[stoogah]

TheCharlatan, on 15 January 2016 - 12:28 AM, said:

Thing is, i consider "playing badly" a playstyle.
It's like playing soccer badly in my country. Everyone plays it with friends. Most are terrible at it. They play it anyway.
Some want to play it seriously, they go at soccer school, maybe become professional.
It's a choice. Imagine if people playing professionaly could go to the guys fooling around with a ball and say "no guys, you have to play well or go home."
What fooling around does is create some people who plays with friends, and discover the drive to "get gud". Those people are the ones that will search training from units. The others are those that don't. You don't want to meet them, they don't want to meet you. Why do you have to play together?
I'd be completely ok if "pug queue" could not capture planets. That seems right.

+1

smokefield, on 15 January 2016 - 12:38 AM, said:

your analogy is wrong.

we want fast games. when we get a game we want it to be challanging. i want to work for it, to have the adrenaline pumping, i wan t to feel involved in a live or die battle. I want a good game.

there are a couple of things that ruin this : one is splitting the player base, which is not that big anyway. no more fast games. The second is people who do not want to improve and learn. They just want to be there and ruin others game. and same applies to your analogy. thats why when we were playing soccer the teams were chosen...and if you are one of those players never giving your best..you were the last one chose...if we were short. I have seen new players coming in and learning the game in a couple of months...because they focused on becoming better, they asked, they learned..and I know veterans that play from day one who are crappy players cause "they have their style". yeah..no one invites them in team drops. who do you want to be ? the learning pug or the "all knowing" veteran ? who do you think has most fun in the end, the one dropping with hsi team and friends or the one dropping with "his style" ?

And who do you think you are to tell anyone how they can have fun? Been there, done that. Was playin TDM mp games over 15 years ago. With "units", with coordination, with voice comunication. Today I prefer to play alone, without coordination, without communication, with pugs. I know how playing in a unit works and and I DON'T want to play that way. My style, my fun.

Edited by stoogah, 15 January 2016 - 01:28 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

amazing, the change that was proposed by some players then gets shite-canned by others without offering solutions to the problem

you have to understand that the opposition is mostly tagged players that enjoy easy wins from pugstomping. Because they can rack up loyalty points and cbills for little or no effort.

theyll make up completely unfounded claims about how splitting the queue wont work because the population is too low (when its at its highest point ever) or how itll ruin the game by making it less challenging. when in reality it makes it more challenging by forcing units to play solely against other units; which is EXACTLY what those players DONT want. They just want their easymode farmville pugstomps.

Theyre all the same players whose units are responsible for ruining CW in the first place by constantly hopping from faction to faction to farm loyalty rewards. Those players are a BLIGHT on this game. And you can tell immediately who they are from reading their posts in this thread...

Quote

I'd be completely ok if "pug queue" could not capture planets. That seems right.

No thats not right. because CW is faction vs faction. its NOT merc corp vs merc corp. merc corps dont own the core planets, FACTIONS do.

And factions are comprised of players that are both in units and not in units. Regardless of whether theyre tagged up or not they have a right to contribute to their faction and should absolutely be able to help capture planets. Which is why everyone who helped take a planet should benefit from the payouts.

Based on what PGI has told us in the past, merc corps will eventually get their own section of the periphery to fight over, and that will be entirely merc corp vs merc corp with no pugs allowed. so theres already a provision for merc corps to own planets out in the periphery.

Edited by Khobai, 15 January 2016 - 01:58 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

I suspect this is going to get abused horrifically.

1) NotVeryGoodUnitA plays CW in a 12 man and gets stomped by MuchBetterUnitB
2) NotVeryGoodUnitA gets salty and mad because its not fair. OP quirks/ClamOP waaah.
3) NotVeryGoodUnitA has an idea! "everyone drop group"
4) NotVeryGoodUnitA has 12 solos queue up at the same time
5) NotVeryGoodUnitA has a 12 man in the solo queue. Its very effective.

Note that this isnt a problem for quick play due to the tier system / MM and only 1 queue making it very hard to syncdrop, and just as likely to end up as opposition as on the same side. CW makes this easy as pie with multiple planets, queue visibility and factions meaning being on the same side is guaranteed. Im certain a 12 man could get at least 8 on the same team consistently.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 15 January 2016 - 02:13 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Bonger Bob, on 15 January 2016 - 01:23 AM, said:

amazing, the change that was proposed by some players then gets shite-canned by others without offering solutions to the problem, to have PGI say the change IS happening, and now we have those same shite-canners presenting solutions to the problems.......

forgive me for now not giving a shite myself.

Except I put that suggestion forward long ago, before the idea of splitting queues even came up on the forums, as a way to get units to fight each other?

As I've said, repeatedly, I have no issue with the split queue so long as pug queue isn't taking worlds.

Khobai, on 15 January 2016 - 01:43 AM, said:

you have to understand that the opposition is mostly tagged players that enjoy easy wins from pugstomping. Because they can rack up loyalty points and cbills for little or no effort.

theyll make up completely unfounded claims about how splitting the queue wont work because the population is too low (when its at its highest point ever) or how itll ruin the game by making it less challenging. when in reality it makes it more challenging by forcing units to play solely against other units; which is EXACTLY what those players DONT want. They just want their easymode farmville pugstomps.

Theyre all the same players whose units are responsible for ruining CW in the first place by constantly hopping from faction to faction to farm loyalty rewards. Those players are a BLIGHT on this game. And you can tell immediately who they are from reading their posts in this thread...



No thats not right. because CW is faction vs faction. its NOT merc corp vs merc corp. merc corps dont own the core planets, FACTIONS do.

And factions are comprised of players that are both in units and not in units. Regardless of whether theyre tagged up or not they have a right to contribute to their faction and should absolutely be able to help capture planets. Which is why everyone who helped take a planet should benefit from the payouts.

Based on what PGI has told us in the past, merc corps will eventually get their own section of the periphery to fight over, and that will be entirely merc corp vs merc corp with no pugs allowed. so theres already a provision for merc corps to own planets out in the periphery.

I don't get how you keep bypassing it -

It's really simple. If you get to take a world from the other faction without having to actually fight anyone/everyone in that faction who can fight to defend it, there is no point to CW other than new maps/modes. You have a matchmaker that's little different from PSR tiers and just having a leaderboard in pug/group queues. You didn't win against a faction, you just played PSR protected, staged matches against curated opponents carefully selected to make sure you never had to fight anyone better than yourself.

If you take a world than you need to do it from anyone/everyone who wants to defend it.

[Kilo 40]

Widowmaker1981, on 15 January 2016 - 02:06 AM, said:

Im certain a 12 man could get at least 8 on the same team consistently.

simple solution. don't allow more than two players from the same unit on a team.

[Wintersdark]

Widowmaker1981, on 15 January 2016 - 02:06 AM, said:

I suspect this is going to get abused horrifically.

1) NotVeryGoodUnitA plays CW in a 12 man and gets stomped by MuchBetterUnitB
2) NotVeryGoodUnitA gets salty and mad because its not fair. OP quirks/ClamOP waaah.
3) NotVeryGoodUnitA has an idea! &quot;everyone drop group&quot;
4) NotVeryGoodUnitA has 12 solos queue up at the same time
5) NotVeryGoodUnitA has a 12 man in the solo queue. Its very effective.

Note that this isnt a problem for quick play due to the tier system / MM and only 1 queue making it very hard to syncdrop, and just as likely to end up as opposition as on the same side. CW makes this easy as pie with multiple planets, queue visibility and factions meaning being on the same side is guaranteed. Im certain a 12 man could get at least 8 on the same team consistently.

Of course. This is why they're imposing a fee on joining units. You can do this, but it costs you, so its not profitable. Not profitable, even if winning more, will stop many (but not all, of course) from doing it.

[Widowmaker1981]

Kilo 40, on 15 January 2016 - 02:16 AM, said:

simple solution. don't allow more than two players from the same unit on a team.

That would work, however i think its probably beyond the scope of what PGI can do while keeping queue times not enormous.

[Wintersdark]

Kilo 40, on 15 January 2016 - 02:16 AM, said:

simple solution. don't allow more than two players from the same unit on a team.

Hub? In his example, they all have to leave the unit to get into the solo queue for CW at all.

It's not grouped vs. Ungrouped, its in unit/not in unit.

It's impossible to stop sync dropping into the solo queue if players drop unit/group, so you need to find another way to discourage it -

As Mischeif has said, unit play in CW has to be more strongly rewarded in the end, so its more profitable to play in a unit vs. Sync dropping and pugstomping.

Widowmaker1981, on 15 January 2016 - 02:18 AM, said:

That would work, however i think its probably beyond the scope of what PGI can do while keeping queue times not enormous.

That IS the plan. Split queue. If you belong to a unit, you're in the unit queue. No unit tag? Solo queue. That's it.

[Widowmaker1981]

Wintersdark, on 15 January 2016 - 02:18 AM, said:

Of course. This is why they're imposing a fee on joining units. You can do this, but it costs you, so its not profitable. Not profitable, even if winning more, will stop many (but not all, of course) from doing it.

Erm, sorry i missed the bit about a fee?

What about those already in Units?

What about those who simply bypass the actually being in a unit stage and use TS3 to co-ordinate outside the game?

edit:

Oh, its Unit Vs not Unit, instead of Grouped vs Ungrouped. That changes things.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 15 January 2016 - 02:25 AM.

[Lupis Volk]

So community warfare is no longer community warfare?