606 replies to this topic

[Coralld]

THE 3rdbreed, on 16 January 2012 - 05:44 AM, said:

Jessica Marik/Halas, she divorced her husband. As of Bonfire of Worlds, she has a unified, if a somewhat fragile, Free Worlds League. All in all, minus Regulan, half of the Marik-Stewert Commonwealth, the Duchy of Anduerian, and 3/4 of the Tamarind Abbey, Jessica has done a tip top job reuniting the core elements of the FWL.
(Not that I like the FWL mind you, but in Dark Ages there is a certain appeal to watching what was once destroyed rise again.)

Thats it exactly. I for one do like the WFL though and seeing them finely turning things around does put a smile on my face.

Edited by Coralld, 16 January 2012 - 12:20 PM.

[William Knight]

Hayden, on 11 December 2011 - 05:36 AM, said:

Because giving the capellan confederation to your wife as a wedding present isn't evil at all

But I have to admit, I do admire Hans' cunning and thoughtfulness.

but it was evil with style

[Coralld]

Well they say a Diamond is a girls best friend... If thats the case, why the hell not half the Capellen state? That makes a simple diamond appear about as impressive as a dirt clod.

[Captain Hat]

3rdbreed, you clearly have no idea how a constitutional monarchy actually works and thus I feel entirely justified in ignoring your opinion entirely.

For the record- the Monarchy in Britain still technically has absolute power: All land is owned by the Monarch, any freehold is simply a notice of right to use not a statement of ownership. All monetary rights are the monarch's- any right to the use of monies is granted exclusively on behalf of the reigning monarch. The monarch has the power to dissolve Parliament at any time and put whoever they feel like in its place. The monarch has the right to overrule Parliament if they choose to do so. This is true not just of the United Kingdom itself, but of the entirety of the British Commonwealth. The monarchy of the UK, in exactly the same way as the monarchy of the Federated Suns, is technically able to do a lot of things that in practice it chooses to delegate to elected officials.

Will any British monarch excercise any of these rights outside of the normal constitutional framework laid down by the rule of ordinary civil law? Of course not. Don't be so bleeding thick. In fact, if the monarchy even attempted to excercise any of those rights it would in all probability be deposed- there's even a framework for that process enshrined in law for abuse of power by the current monarch.

So don't give me any of this guff about House Davion being a bunch of despotic all-powerful overlords: The Federated Suns has, in the same way as the UK, an effective system of checks and balances against acts of despotism or abuses of power on the part of its leaders. Can the same be said of any other Successor State bar the Free Worlds League? Not to the same extent, certainly, and the FWL is in any case a much looser conglomeration of smaller states bound together for strength in numbers rather than a genuinely cohesive nation in its own right. It certainly can't be said of the Capellan Confederation.

As such, I'm quite happy supporting probably the second-most egalitarian faction in the Inner Sphere, and the one that offers by some margin the best balance between individual freedom and national strength.

Edited by Captain Hat, 17 January 2012 - 05:58 AM.

[THE 3rdbreed]

@Captain Hat: Are we talking about the British monarchy? I did not think so, but thank you very much for that wealth of knowledge on a real world example of a successful system of government.........Now, if you would kindly come back to the Federated Suns. I will show you how it does not matter whether you ignore my opinion on a subject, but you can not ignore what the writers SAY is right.(especially seeing as how they actually WROTE the universe.)
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The Federated Suns has, in the same way as the UK, an effective system of checks and balances against acts of despotism or abuses of power on the part of its leaders.

May I kindly ask what checks and balances? Nobles? Nope, using your own historical examples both France and England had Nobles, yet both have had opposite forms of government. High Council? Nope, the sourcebook says that the High Council is powerless and useless. (and it is most definitely NOT parliment. Look at the Sourcebook. Have you read it?) Privy Council? Nope, the privy council is appointed by the Prince, and serves at the pleasure of the Prince as an advisory! Administration or Judicial? Nope, as I said they are both controlled by the First Prince. I am afraid that although you know quite a bit about the United Kingdom government, you need to learn a little bit more about the Federated Suns.

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The monarchy of the UK, in exactly the same way as the monarchy of the Federated Suns, is technically able to do a lot of things that in practice it chooses to delegate to elected officials.

Relevant how? Every national leader must delegate powers in order to keep his government running (Louis XIV did). But any power given can be taken away, and as long as any official depends on another to give him his power, he is subordinate to that individual. The Prince delegates all power to anyone serving; therefore all are subordinate to him; therefore he is Absolute. How this is different from the UK is that the government in the UK is under the law. The First Prince is not under the law,and thereby not under any constraints(sounds kinda absolute does it not?), as I have stated previously.

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Will any British monarch excercise any of these rights outside of the normal constitutional framework laid down by the rule of ordinary civil law?

A law constrained British Monarch would probably not, but a law transcendant First Prince could if he wanted to.

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In fact, if the monarchy even attempted to excercise any of those rights it would in all probability be deposed- there's even a framework for that process enshrined in law for abuse of power by the current monarch.

That is brilliant for the British to create a framework for the removing of abusive government, but wait the Federated Suns has nothing of the sort for the First Prince. And the Nobles are punished by the judiciary.....which is controlled by the First Prince.....funny how that works huh?

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So don't give me any of this guff about House Davion being a bunch of despotic all-powerful overlords:

I did not say that you did. Perhaps you should read the article again to understand your errors. I am simply saying what the writers have said. You are simply stating what you have superimposed over your lack of knowledge about the Federated Suns.

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As such, I'm quite happy supporting probably the second-most egalitarian faction in the Inner Sphere, and the one that offers by some margin the best balance between individual freedom and national strength.

Oh you support the Rasalhague Republic? Anyway I am glad that you are happy supporting what you "think" is the Federated Suns, but I do hope that someday you might go look for yourself what the truth is. Ignorance is bliss for the victim, but for everyone else it is just grating.

[vasile]

Mostly because they are a middle among extremes. They are not totaly autoritarian or follow honor to ridiculous lenghts, so is a solid center. Second because it has a very strong military that has a very active R&D tradition even in the early decades after the fall of the star league.

The only thing that I do not like is their heavy use of autocannons in their mech designs, ammo is a factor.

Edited by vasile "edge" ilinov, 17 January 2012 - 12:49 PM.

[StarCleric]

I chose House Davion because of the Gray Fox, Because of Victor Stiener Davion, Cause of the Kell hounds and Because Com Star wasent an option (sigh)

[Captain Hat]

You still don't know what you're talking about: In France and England, even while they were absolute monarchies, the nobles could and did quite often tell the ruling monarch exactly how high to jump. Not only that, but there's more than one instance of the people themselves acting as a check on the king's power- the English Civil War and the French Revolution are good examples. In fact, England at the time of the Civil War is a good example, as we had a very strong monarch (much like the Fed Suns do) and Parliament was considered by most to be nothing more than a rubber-stamping facility (sound familiar?). The King acted up one too many times, and... well, to put it politely, Parliament told him where to shove it.

Now, you Capellans may not quite understand how this works, but in the Federated Suns if our leaders act up we don't have the temperament to lay down and take it like you guys seem to. Sure, the First Prince may technically have the right to do this and that, but that doesn't mean they have the moral right to and it most certainly doesn't mean that they'll get away with it. In the Confederation they might, Hell, they might even get away with it in the Lyran Commonwealth, but in the Federated Suns they won't.

On a sidenote, I find being lectured on political freedom by a Capellan is an interesting experience to say the least!

[Jack Gammel]

Captain Hat, on 18 January 2012 - 06:18 AM, said:

On a sidenote, I find being lectured on political freedom by a Capellan is an interesting experience to say the least!

Surreal is more like it. I might play Germans in FoW, but that doesn't mean I try to defend Nazi policies in 1930's Germany. They may have helped pull Germany out of a devestating depression, but there were other important and extremely negative aspects of the Nazi platform which are far more important. While comparing a make-believe nation to a real world fascist regime which is remembered for racist and genocidal policies isn't really fair (and breaks the Nazi Rule of debate), my point is that the Capellan fluff clearly states that the ruling Liao regime has enacted purges on its own populace in the past using a secret police organization, and the entire government is an absolute dictatorship protected by an extra-military organization (Death Commandos) who answer only to the chancellor and are fanatically loyal to the chancellor.

When I was choosing a Great House to play I tried to think about their respective government systems in real world terms. I was actually very attracted to the FWL at first, but was put off by their general inability to get their respective acts together. When it came to the Capellan Confederation I couldn't ignore the close parallels to Capellan institutions and other real world equivalents (Gestapo, Waffen SS, KGB, the Iraqi Secret Police, etc.). While the Maskirovka and Death Commandos might be make-believe, they still represent morally reprehensible things.

Even if the FedSuns was an absolute monarchy (and it absolutely isn't), House Davion is still largely benevolent towards its own citizens (with a few notable exceptions).

Edited by Jack Gammel, 18 January 2012 - 07:08 AM.

[Yogibear24]

I'm not too familiar with the Battletech Universe, but does Davion salvage a lot of clan weapons? Or do clan weapons not even exist in the timeline of the game? I just chose Davion because in Mechwarrior 4 Mercenaries, I always ended up getting a higher House Davion rating.

[GargoyleKDR]

Yogibear24, on 18 January 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

I'm not too familiar with the Battletech Universe, but does Davion salvage a lot of clan weapons? Or do clan weapons not even exist in the timeline of the game? I just chose Davion because in Mechwarrior 4 Mercenaries, I always ended up getting a higher House Davion rating.

MWO will be following the Battletech Universe timeline. At the start of the game (this summer) we will be in 3049. The Inner Sphere doesn't know about the clans until they arrive in force in March-April 3050. Even at that point it took some time for the Inner Sphere to realize exactly who the attackers are and what it is that they want. Clan weapons won't be available when the game launches, and it is unknown if clan tech salvage/upgrades will be allowed later. Plan on Inner Sphere weapons only for the near future.


- Garg.

Edited by GargoyleKDR, 18 January 2012 - 02:54 PM.

[Stone Profit]

Captain Hat, on 18 January 2012 - 06:18 AM, said:

On a sidenote, I find being lectured on political freedom by a Capellan is an interesting experience to say the least!

Aww, its not his fault. He only know what the state sponsored schools on Sian allow to be tught. He truely thinks that he is correct, because Romano Liao said he is. According to her, all the other Successor States are evil and oppressive, and that the members of House Liao are benevolent dictators whos kindness outshines the stars. So, cut him some slack. But how come some cappie got on our message boards? Arent there community moderators to handle this sort of thing? I call shenanigans!

[Listless Nomad]

GargoyleKDR, on 18 January 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

The Inner Sphere doesn't know about the clans until they arrive in force in March-April 3050. Even at that point it took some time for the Inner Sphere to realize exactly who the attackers are and what it is that they want.

Actually the first instances of the clans begin to appear in August of 3049 - when Phelan Kell was captured. At that stage it was only Clan Wolf, Ghost Bear, and Smoke Jaguar I believe. The rest of the clans showed up during the time you describe - but it may be possible to glimpse them in about 8 months.

[THE 3rdbreed]

@Captain Hat & Jack Gammel:
*sigh* I have backed up all my claims with official Battletech facts and what the writers say. If there is one thing I do not understand, it is how you can continue to deny what I am saying, even though it is 100% canon by what official sources say. I am simply stating that I do not believe there is a single modern government in the Inner Sphere that can claim a morally right government. At best all the Successor States(Rasalhague Republic not included.) are Absolute Monarchies. At worst they are all Dictatorships.(Yes, my Capellan Confederation included.) The difference between the others and House Liao is that we get dumped on by everyone for having an evil government when theirs is equally as bad. As I said, if there was a USA-in-Space, I would join it. There is not, and not even one that comes close.

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But how come some cappie got on our message boards? Arent there community moderators to handle this sort of thing? I call shenanigans!

Anyway this is my final argument as I have seemed to wore out my welcome. I hope I have not brooked any ill-will. (Besides that which naturally occurs between Liao and Davion.) Thank you Davions for the debate!

P.S:

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On a sidenote, I find being lectured on political freedom by a Capellan is an interesting experience to say the least!

Come on
Role-playing is half the fun!

[starbug]

Why am I a Son of the Suns? Because it's the faction I most closely identify with.

[Coralld]

House Davion, F*** YEAH!!

[Adridos]

starbug, on 23 January 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

Why am I a Son of the Suns? Because it's the faction I most closely identify with.

So you are stupid and like trying to beat on A LOT smaller, but then get your @$$ kicked?

[Vexgrave Lars]

I am always drawn to hopeless causes, and Davion is rife with them.

...and your'e less likely to take a Guass Rifle round in the back with them.

Vex

Edited by Vexgrave Lars, 23 January 2012 - 01:02 PM.

[starbug]

Adridos, on 23 January 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

So you are stupid and like trying to beat on A LOT smaller, but then get your @$$ kicked?

The culture and history of the Federated Suns is based on medieval Britain, and is full of references to Arthurian Legend, which as an Englishman (well, kid when I first got into BattleTech) with a life-long interest in my nations history and myths, I felt drawn to House Davion.

But that's not to say it's something I came to lightly; my first exposure to the BT universe was readying, and enjoying, Falcon Guard, and for a while at least I identified with the Clans, mainly Clan Nova Cat (I liked the name). Then I started reading more of the books, starting with Decision At Thunder Rift, and got more into the background of the universe. Reading the rest of the books (and yes, I own all the CBT novels) I started to understand that it's a setting where there is no right or wrong, good or evil, black or white, just endless shades of grey. And that's what I think makes it so strong, because it allows the fans to pick their own sides. I can admire the honourable Samurai of the Draconis Combine, the tenacity of the Capellan Confederation and the nomadic life of a mercenary, while still feeling, at heart, a Davion.

My RPG character is a Davion mercenary. Most of the Mech's I've painted are in Davion colours. And yes, I intend to play this game as a Davion.

[Patrio Sioux Daltum]

I wanted to go to the Marik-Stewart Commonwealth so I could say, "Get off my planet, you scum-sucking Liao bass terds " but in the end I like Hanse Davion more than Anson Marik.

Edited by Patrio Sioux Daltum, 23 January 2012 - 01:55 PM.