105 replies to this topic

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Paperdog, on 16 January 2016 - 09:41 AM, said:

I don't want to disappoint the AMS fanboys, but AMS is in a sad state. I do carry a few on my mechs, but I can't see the difference when 40-50 volleys hitting me nonstop. And if the enemy have more big LRM boats you have no chance.
Yes, yes take covear and play smart. Won't do much. Especially when you have no ECM and the enemy team have ECM and LRM boats combined. And thanks to the event they swarming on every map.

The points of AMS isn't that it makes you immune to LRMs entirely, it just considerably reduces the damage you take from those LRM volleys. It entirely stops an LRM5. If people are firing 40 LRM volleys (the max without hitting ghost heat) they'd be using 2 LRM20s, which have considerably high spread and longer reload times. If you only brought 1 AMS and had no teammates near you and no cover you'd still take 12.5% less damage. If you and your entire lance of 4 people brought AMS you'd take 50% less damage from that LRM volley. If your entire team of 12 brought AMS you would entirely destroy that LRM volley with time to spare.

Just like LRMs, AMS systems are a cumulative system for the team. If everyone brings one LRM5 you'd have an LRM 60 boat spread between 12 people. If everyone brought a single AMS system you'd negate that entire LRM60.

[Choppah]

adamts01, on 15 January 2016 - 11:51 PM, said:

That's just false. How do you attack an indirect fire mech? Kill his spotter... Be observant and kill the UAV. LRMs don't work unless there are eyes on the target, and those eyes are very vulnerable.
This game is already too linear, we don't need everything to be LOS. If, anything, I think LRMs need a boost, maybe getting rid of "radar dep," and making TAG visible only in night vision mode. All they're good at is punishing out of position noobs.

Minimal risk for high reward (poptarting) is something that was problem and addressed before (incorrectly IMHO) because it is bad for gameplay.

Nick86, on 16 January 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

I stopped reading just about there.. You can ignore too...

Way to contribute to the thread. I gave my opinion as to why I believe LRM's will continued to be complained about. "LOL Ignore me!11!" is just childish, why even bother posting this if you had nothing to say?

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Choppah, on 16 January 2016 - 09:53 AM, said:

Minimal risk for high reward (poptarting) is something that was problem and addressed before (incorrectly IMHO) because it is bad for gameplay.

Way to contribute to the thread. I gave my opinion as to why I believe LRM's will continued to be complained about. "LOL Ignore me!11!" is just childish, why even bother posting this if you had nothing to say?

To be honest an LRM boat is always hit and miss no matter how good someone gets at LRMing they can always run into an ECM heavy team or get stuck with enemies hiding under the platform on crimson or something similar. Rewards usually aren't all too high either compared to other things of less risk, like just peeking and firing with some lasers.

Even if you are good enough with LRMs to fire them without locks and hit consistently you still get your parade rained on the moment someone has enough AMS or gets too close.

[Tordin]

Cion, on 15 January 2016 - 10:26 AM, said:

Feels like most complaints of "Lrms OP PGI plz nurf" lose validity when you simply ask people "did you carry AMS?".

----------followed by silence of the person complaining.

Couldnt agree more.

They also seems to refuse hiding behind the abundance of cover! (in most maps) Or train their reaction skills agains missiles or.. yeah using ams, ecm and those crazy modules.
Their tears are indeed made of salt, so... let em suffer. Because there will be AC thunder and rain of missiles in their faces. Also extreeemely fun to wreck with lrm then grind MG rounds into them, finishing their pain

[wanderer]

Madcap72, on 15 January 2016 - 10:12 PM, said:

Unless it's some like me with a 6x lrm5 Cat and I grind you apart as you try to get close.

Or worse, it's my buddies and I and we have 4 of the damn things and just run everyone ragged.

That's a pet peeve of mine.

I'll be doin' my missile thing and some derp will walk next to me and join in...

...of course, that means neither of us can swat off an enemy light effectively from the other. Seriously, my lasers work fine if I'm over here, but I can put my missiles in too.

Try to give your fellow missile types 200m of space at least. Aside from the mutual cover, multiple angles of missile fire tend to drive someone into cover for one, only to get pelted by another one who still has a good angle.

And since they keep getting pelted, they try and move again...and usually this means they're getting hit by the other guy or if they panic enough, both at once again. Repeat until target dies, swap to next target...

[wanderer]

Eglar, on 16 January 2016 - 02:01 AM, said:

While there are people who think that aiming is not an actual skillset, literally all other weapons than lrms require proper aiming. Personally I do think that playing lrms is decremental to ones aiming.

Aiming for a missile-chucker is making sure you can draw an arcing shot from you to your target, observing surrounding cover, making sure you can actually keep facing that way without getting your torso cored by other enemy 'Mechs, etc. etc.

Oh, and praying the lock holds. Aiming for a lurmboat is a long matter of seconds- lock, fire, hold lock, watch target to start calculating if the next salvo is a good shot while the first one goes in, deciding to continue to fire. It's the most predictive-dependent weapon in the game.

It's one reason I detest the 800+m lobbers. Given flight time and often zero idea of the surrounding terrain, you're doing the equivalent of blindly spraying your lasers across the general direction of your target and hoping the crosshairs go red.

Dakota1000, on 16 January 2016 - 04:04 AM, said:

Did you see the queues when the Mauler was released? That thing was $80 and I had matches with 5 and 6 per team. Or when the IIC mechs were released, I had a match where I was the only one not driving one on my team. Archer is even more famous and will be the only mech in the game that can carry 9 LRM5s, that alone has me anticipating a massive amount of people ordering it. I mean, look at all the Marauders moving around even now, they were ordered and are still not out for cbills and they are everywhere.

More importantly, it'll likely be 7LRM 5 + 2x SRM4 or the like. In that regard, it's like the Mad Dog- it can stream LRM 5s and actually shoot back at close range, unlike the Cat-A1.

[Nick86]

Choppah, on 16 January 2016 - 09:53 AM, said:

Minimal risk for high reward (poptarting) is something that was problem and addressed before (incorrectly IMHO) because it is bad for gameplay.

Way to contribute to the thread. I gave my opinion as to why I believe LRM's will continued to be complained about. "LOL Ignore me!11!" is just childish, why even bother posting this if you had nothing to say?

Okay, sorry Choppah, just consider it paraphrased criticism. It's just you pretty much said lrms are a low skill weapon or something used by people who want to hide.. As a player who brawls with lrms I read your post, got that far and just thought, 'meh.. Invalid opinion as largely untrue statements given.'

[Nick86]

wanderer, on 16 January 2016 - 10:35 AM, said:

Aiming for a missile-chucker is making sure you can draw an arcing shot from you to your target, observing surrounding cover, making sure you can actually keep facing that way without getting your torso cored by other enemy 'Mechs, etc. etc.

Oh, and praying the lock holds. Aiming for a lurmboat is a long matter of seconds- lock, fire, hold lock, watch target to start calculating if the next salvo is a good shot while the first one goes in, deciding to continue to fire. It's the most predictive-dependent weapon in the game.

It's one reason I detest the 800+m lobbers. Given flight time and often zero idea of the surrounding terrain, you're doing the equivalent of blindly spraying your lasers across the general direction of your target and hoping the crosshairs go red.



More importantly, it'll likely be 7LRM 5 + 2x SRM4 or the like. In that regard, it's like the Mad Dog- it can stream LRM 5s and actually shoot back at close range, unlike the Cat-A1.

Wanderer actually understands lrms.. Not many do..

[Ted Wayz]

Lightfoot, on 15 January 2016 - 10:50 AM, said:

LRMs do suck tho. You have to lay a trap to have them work, like uh NASCAR, but bad.

If that is your opinion then you are doing it wrong.

[Roadkill]

Sandpit, on 15 January 2016 - 03:52 PM, said:

I love players like you coming in on some of my lurm boats thinking that

Then they get a face full of UAC20 and lasers

That's not really an LRM boat, then. Just because you're carrying LRMs doesn't make you a boat. ;-)

Good players generally don't boat LRMs because it's dangerous. The best LRM builds are like the one you're describing - some to maybe a lot of LRMs backed up by good direct fire. My LRM "boat" Warhawk only carries 3 x LRM-15 because it's also carrying 4 x CERLL. (Plus that way it fits on the Prime(I) so I can get the 30% c-bill bonus.)

[Nick86]

Dakota1000, on 16 January 2016 - 10:09 AM, said:

To be honest an LRM boat is always hit and miss no matter how good someone gets at LRMing they can always run into an ECM heavy team or get stuck with enemies hiding under the platform on crimson or something similar. Rewards usually aren't all too high either compared to other things of less risk, like just peeking and firing with some lasers.

Even if you are good enough with LRMs to fire them without locks and hit consistently you still get your parade rained on the moment someone has enough AMS or gets too close.

Quoted for truth. (please don't get upset at my paraphrasing!)

[Ultimax]

cSand, on 15 January 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

People complain LRMs suck,

until people start using em, then it's a huge problem and everyone b*tches

How can you be here so long and still not actually fully understand the problem?


LRM's are bad weapons when 2 very good teams are playing each other.

LRM's are problematic in situations (read: more powerful than they should be) where there is low coordination and disparate skill levels across teams (solo queue), and for the low amount of skill required for this effect to occur.




There are two main facets to the issue. TWO.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 16 January 2016 - 11:08 AM.

[Choppah]

Dakota1000, on 16 January 2016 - 10:09 AM, said:

To be honest an LRM boat is always hit and miss no matter how good someone gets at LRMing they can always run into an ECM heavy team or get stuck with enemies hiding under the platform on crimson or something similar. Rewards usually aren't all too high either compared to other things of less risk, like just peeking and firing with some lasers.

Even if you are good enough with LRMs to fire them without locks and hit consistently you still get your parade rained on the moment someone has enough AMS or gets too close.

That is the big picture. Condensing everything down to single match, LRMs can hit a target with no risk of return fire from that target. Expounding on my RO2 example, if a mortar strike lands near me, I can take cover and evaluate the situation. If I can find the enemy mortar, I can directly take him out. This cat and mouse game is a fun mini-game occurring between 2 players while a larger battle is raging around us.

Now lets make this mortar behave like a typical LRM boat. Being completely behind cover, the best he can do is lob shells randomly, hoping to get a hit. He takes no risk and he is barely rewarded. While in MWO, the ability to lock from behind cover allows some reward (albeit lower than a front line LRM mech) for no risk.

In summation, I agree, basically any weapon of equivalent tonnage is a better choice than LRMs: LPL is better than LRM 15, LL is better than LRM 10, and SRM 4 (even with its 270M range) is better than LRM 5. I wish LRMs were reworked so that they are a legitimate choice and not situation dependent dice rolls.

Nick86, on 16 January 2016 - 10:43 AM, said:

Okay, sorry Choppah, just consider it paraphrased criticism. It's just you pretty much said lrms are a low skill weapon or something used by people who want to hide.. As a player who brawls with lrms I read your post, got that far and just thought, 'meh.. Invalid opinion as largely untrue statements given.'

I take it you are referring to this sentence:

Quote

And when these particular circumstances occur, players are left with only 1 viable option, take cover until the LRM boat picks a different target, which is boring and therefore unfun (seriously, who wants to hide when not playing a role that is supposed to hide?).

I meant hiding for the targeted player, not the LRM boat. As an example, when playing a cataphract, you have to expose the whole mech to bring its low slung arms into the fight. It is not a peekaboo or hill humping mech. Being rather slow, they can't really avoid LRMs by speed or agility, so the only real option is to hunker down behind cover. The cataphract is not contributing to the fight with his weapons, and the LRM boat is wasting ammo on a rock or building. How is this fun? What does 2 players having a crap score for not doing much achieve in a F2P dependent on a good score for ingame currency?

This is the main reason why players complain about LRMs: they aren't fun weapons for the user or the target. Seeing as you enjoy using them, please give your own examples as a counter to my argument.

[Ted Wayz]

Dakota1000, on 16 January 2016 - 10:09 AM, said:

To be honest an LRM boat is always hit and miss no matter how good someone gets at LRMing they can always run into an ECM heavy team or get stuck with enemies hiding under the platform on crimson or something similar. Rewards usually aren't all too high either compared to other things of less risk, like just peeking and firing with some lasers.

Even if you are good enough with LRMs to fire them without locks and hit consistently you still get your parade rained on the moment someone has enough AMS or gets too close.

If you have a bit of skill there is no escape from a good LRM boat. Unfortunately there are not many good boaters.

Hint, hint: If you are not constantly moving as a boat you are doing it wrong.

[Ted Wayz]

Ultimatum X, on 16 January 2016 - 11:08 AM, said:

How can you be here so long and still not actually fully understand the problem?


LRM's are bad weapons when 2 very good teams are playing each other.

LRM's are problematic in situations (read: more powerful than they should be) where there is low coordination and disparate skill levels across teams (solo queue), and for the low amount of skill required for this effect to occur.




There are two main facets to the issue. TWO.

My guess is you are not good with LRMs and apply this to everyone else. But why try to do something difficult when you can just pew pew all day?

[El Bandito]

Choppah, on 16 January 2016 - 11:09 AM, said:

I meant hiding for the targeted player, not the LRM boat. As an example, when playing a cataphract, you have to expose the whole mech to bring its low slung arms into the fight. It is not a peekaboo or hill humping mech. Being rather slow, they can't really avoid LRMs by speed or agility, so the only real option is to hunker down behind cover. The cataphract is not contributing to the fight with his weapons, and the LRM boat is wasting ammo on a rock or building. How is this fun? What does 2 players having a crap score for not doing much achieve in a F2P dependent on a good score for ingame currency?

This is the main reason why players complain about LRMs: they aren't fun weapons for the user or the target. Seeing as you enjoy using them, please give your own examples as a counter to my argument.

1. Cataphract can be a hill humping mech, if you use it's torso energy points. That goes double for the 3D.

2. Dunno about you but I enjoy suppressing the enemy with LRMs. Keeping the enemy Direwolf or King Crab unable to shoot at my teammates is its own reward.

Edited by El Bandito, 16 January 2016 - 11:15 AM.

[Roadkill]

Ultimatum X, on 16 January 2016 - 11:08 AM, said:

LRM's are bad weapons

Full stop. Fixed that for you.

Quote

LRM's are problematic in situations (read: more powerful than they should be) where there is low coordination and disparate skill levels across teams (solo queue), and for the low amount of skill required for this effect to occur.

Not really.

LRMs are only problematic when there are bads on the receiving end. It doesn't matter how good the firer is, if the target is a bad then LRMs are a problem. Bads just can't deal with LRMs (because they're bad) and instantly assume that the problem is that LRMs are OP.

Now it is also true that the skill floor for LRMs is relatively low, which means that a bad armed with LRMs can still abuse another bad who is his target. But is that really a problem?

Even an amazingly good LRM boater has trouble against moderately good targets. And LRMs are basically worthless against skilled players. The thing is, good LRM boaters are also good at figuring out who the bads are so that they can abuse them.

That doesn't make LRMs problematic. You can't balance for bads.

[Ted Wayz]

Roadkill, on 16 January 2016 - 11:27 AM, said:

Now it is also true that the skill floor for LRMs is relatively low, which means that a bad armed with LRMs can still abuse another bad who is his target. But is that really a problem?

Even an amazingly good LRM boater has trouble against moderately good targets.

And another bad (with LRM) reveals themselves.

The skill floor to be a bad Lurmer is low. But it is the same with all weapons. To be good with LRMs takes actual skill as the weapon can be unforgiving if not used properly against good targets. Not like laser vomit which amounts to "is my mouse in the right place? Click." I have no idea how people, if they know anything about LRMs, say they are bad and no skill without saying all other weapons are worse.

And a real good Lurmer fears no target. My favorite point in a match is when a good pilot in a "better" mech licks his chops and "comes at me, bro". Then they realize they really screwed up, try and find cover only to be driven into the ground.

[Trauglodyte]

LRMs are, for the greater part, bad. They're bad because 1) people don't know how to use them and 2) people don't know how to design their mechs around them. What's worse is that people boat them all while screwing up points #1 and #2. Hence why there is such a bad misnomer around LRM users. Then, you toss in a weekend event like what is going on now and it just makes the situation worse. Bad pilots come running to the boards crying about how they got decimated by 12 LRM users while the people that want them to be more viable as a stand alone weapon just sigh in disbelief because said crying bad just continues to expand an agenda against which the LRM can never be bettered.

[Ultimax]

Ted Wayz, on 16 January 2016 - 11:13 AM, said:

My guess is you are not good with LRMs and apply this to everyone else. But why try to do something difficult when you can just pew pew all day?

Or, I "know how to use LRMs" (as if that's actually a thing, you need to be a complete moron or brand new to not be able to use them) and know exactly what I'm talking about.














Now put up your best LRM match scores, or STFU.


BUILD

Edited by Ultimatum X, 16 January 2016 - 07:37 PM.