190 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

So...

After the patch has had time to marinade for a while, it is time to discuss the insane structure quirks.

The WHR has enough structure quirks to be a 100 ton mech with doubled armor.

Now, that might all be fine and dandy...but when you put up a list of weapon quirks that include things like 10% energy reduction, 5% PPC heat reduction and 50% increased PPC velocity...now you are getting into absurd levels of offense and absurd levels of armor.

To wit, the HBR has similar hitboxes and likely similar size model (surprise surprise there, right?), and it has zero structure quirks, and zero weapon quirks.

The point being, the scale has been tipped to the IS side strongly. It is time we address the issue.

EDIT: There are others as well...like the BJ and TDR that are riding the line for absurd survival and offensive capability.

Edited by Gyrok, 16 January 2016 - 08:06 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

I don't think it's tipped the IS side heavily.

Just that God Tier robbits are God Tier and everything else is Grade A Smashed A$$.... still...

[Khobai]

Quote

The point being, the scale has been tipped to the IS side strongly. It is time we address the issue.

how exactly? the only way I can see to "fix" the problem is to make the IS and clan tech bases equal.

that means nerfing clan weapons down to the same level as IS weapons. And it means buffing ISXL to the same level as CXL.

by doing that you remove the need to use quirks for balancing.

[vandalhooch]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 16 January 2016 - 08:09 PM, said:

I don't think it's tipped the IS side heavily.

Just that God Tier robbits are God Tier and everything else is Grade A Smashed A$$.... still...

The only appropriate response for this thread is . . .

Shut up, Gyrok.

[Lugh]

Yeah let all the tryhard tier ones migrate to IS because it makes it easier. It's all good.

[FupDup]

Gyrok is being Gyrok again.

More news at 10!

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 16 January 2016 - 08:05 PM, said:

The WHR has enough structure quirks to be a 100 ton mech with doubled armor.

vandalhooch, on 16 January 2016 - 08:21 PM, said:

The only appropriate response for this thread is . . .

Shut up, Gyrok.

And that math is apparently hard.

[Gas Guzzler]

Atlas CT Armor + Structure = 186 (no quirks)
WHR CT Armor + Structure = 154 (with quirks)

So yeah, no.

Gyrok, on 16 January 2016 - 08:05 PM, said:

EDIT: There are others as well...like the BJ and TDR that are riding the line for absurd survival and offensive capability.

The BJ should be toned down a bit. TDR is fine. Most don't even have CT quirks, only ST.

Gyrok, on 16 January 2016 - 08:05 PM, said:

Now, that might all be fine and dandy...but when you put up a list of weapon quirks that include things like 10% energy reduction, 5% PPC heat reduction and 50% increased PPC velocity...now you are getting into absurd levels of offense and absurd levels of armor.

Could you sensationalize this any more? WOW someone's PPCs might hit me accurately, that's like 20 damage! Oh noes!

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 16 January 2016 - 10:17 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

vandalhooch, on 16 January 2016 - 08:21 PM, said:

The only appropriate response for this thread is . . .

Shut up, Gyrok.

Oh look Gyrok is crying because his Clam Robbits aren't super uber OP anymore......

[Aiden Skye]

[Sigilum Sanctum]

[Bishop Steiner]

Sigilum Sanctum, on 16 January 2016 - 10:10 PM, said:

OK, not really, lol

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Stating this again for the record:

IS durability Quirks are an unfortunate and unnecessary byproduct of the problematic IS XL fragility issue. This is the core of unbalance in the game as it is now.

Make IS XLs survive ST loss with penalties (just as Clan XLs do now) and buff STD engines across Techlines. This done, we no longer need IS over-Quirking and can strip out al those ridiculous durability Quirks..

Quirks can then return to their correct place as flavor tweaks and we, as a community, can turn to more interesting advances in gameplay.

[Xetelian]

Quirks to survival are a good thing because Innersphere mechs can either go super slow or die an isXL death.


Every IS mech needs to have some structure added, not just a few.

Either that are make them equal to clan mechs 1 to 1.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Xetelian, on 16 January 2016 - 10:51 PM, said:

Quirks to survival are a good thing because Innersphere mechs can either go super slow or die an isXL death.

This is precisely the problem and precisely what needs to change.

As long as this is the conundrum of IS 'Mechs arbitrary and unbalancing Quirks will remain and the game will feel unfair from either side of the Techline fence.

[Sable]

I'd actually say leave the structure quirks, and then give clan mechs the same structure quirks. I'm actually enjoying how tough mechs are now except for clan mechs, they seem much more fragile. But yes tough mechs seem much more mechwarrior like. And when all mechs are tough... none of them will be.

Edited by Sable, 16 January 2016 - 11:20 PM.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Sable, on 16 January 2016 - 11:20 PM, said:

I'd actually say leave the structure quirks, and then give clan mechs the same structure quirks. I'm actually enjoying how tough mechs are now except for clan mechs, they seem much more fragile. But yes tough mechs seem much more mechwarrior like. And when all mechs are tough... none of them will be.

There is nothing inherently wrong with making all 'Mechs tougher, as you said "when all mechs are tough... none of them will be"; but Quirks aren't the right mechanism to use to do it.

If you want to retain the current durability of IS 'Mechs and increase the durability of Clan 'Mechs we can just scrub the Quirks and increase base structure values across the board.

However, should this happen, we will still need to fix the IS XL fragility and make both Clan and IS STD engines more durable or the cycle of over-Quirking will begin again.

[Alistair Winter]

The 70 ton Warhammer actually has less significant structure quirks than the 70 ton Cataphract.

I do agree that the Warhammer quirks are silly (ref: ballistic quirks), but:

• Last time I checked, my Cataphract sure didn't feel like a 100 ton mech with doubled armour. They fall down just fine.
  
• You didn't really have to bring IS vs Clans into this, because that debate is increasingly irrelevant. A more relevant discussion would be PGI's blatant hardpoint inflation to sell new mechs. Consider the 70 ton Warhammer with 9 hardpoints for all variants vs the 70 ton Cataphract with 5-6 hardpoints.*

* - The CTF-4X actually has 7 hardpoints, but one of those is a useless cockpit missile hardpoint and two of them are sub-optimal CT energy hardpoints. And they also gave the CTF-4X an arbitrary 255 (!) engine cap, which they don't do for new mechs, because it leads to Twitter storms.

[Bishop Steiner]

Alistair Winter, on 17 January 2016 - 12:06 AM, said:

The 70 ton Warhammer actually has less significant structure quirks than the 70 ton Cataphract.

I do agree that the Warhammer quirks are silly (ref: ballistic quirks), but:

• Last time I checked, my Cataphract sure didn't feel like a 100 ton mech with doubled armour. They fall down just fine.
  
• You didn't really have to bring IS vs Clans into this, because that debate is increasingly irrelevant. A more relevant discussion would be PGI's blatant hardpoint inflation to sell new mechs. Consider the 70 ton Warhammer with 9 hardpoints for all variants vs the 70 ton Cataphract with 5-6 hardpoints.*

* - The CTF-4X actually has 7 hardpoints, but one of those is a useless cockpit missile hardpoint and two of them are sub-optimal CT energy hardpoints. And they also gave the CTF-4X an arbitrary 255 (!) engine cap, which they don't do for new mechs, because it leads to Twitter storms.

I hadn't learned to twitter back when the CTF-4X came out.... cut me some slack, yo!

[Pjwned]

I agree, the quirks are completely out of hand, but considering that PGI's latest effort to adjust quirks was a complete flop, I'm only expecting them to keep rolling out unbalanced slop and continue to break promises.

vandalhooch, on 16 January 2016 - 08:21 PM, said:

The only appropriate response for this thread is . . .

Shut up, Gyrok.

Except it's not because he's right that quirks are ridiculous.

Edited by Pjwned, 17 January 2016 - 12:35 AM.