354 replies to this topic

[Grimlox]

I like the suggestion of removing the range quirks on ERLL's. Not only would this be a simple way to improve balance but it would also change up the laser vomit meta a bit IMO. There would now be more risk to building laser poke mechs if the range was scaled back 20-25% and the opposing team had that much more leeway to position and push where they may be using more favourable close in weapons.

Right now it seems it is simply too challenging to effectively close distance on an opposing team that has such an effective range advantage. IS experienced plenty of this when clans released.

Also buffing PPC's doesn't seem like the best answer, all it would do it replaced our laser vomiting overlords with PPFLD overlords, been there done that. A minor buff to PPC's might be acceptable but not so much that it would outdo lasers inside of 800m. PPC's need to remain a difficult to land weapon 1000m+ ranges and not as good as lasers inside of that.

Right now ERLL's are just stepping a bit too much on the extreme ranges where PPC's should have their niche, and lasers are simply too easy to use at those ranges.

[Adamski]

Yeonne Greene, on 25 January 2016 - 04:11 PM, said:

That doesn't compute, because those are not the most direct complementary items. More durability to offset smaller payloads due to STD engines only makes sense if you are face-tanking, otherwise the pilot can limit his exposure to enemy fire all on his own. And that's easier done with an XL than a STD, which also has the benefit of allowing a more comparable weapons payload.

It's a similar problem to where people say range begets duration. That isn't actually right. Increased range is most directly reigned in by increased cool-down to lower the DPS and allow more chance to approach and to make the gun less effective up close. Increased damage is most directly reigned in by increased duration to soften the absolute advantage over weaker lasers. You can reduce strength of either of those two more direct counters and mix with additional heat to provide more flexibility at the pilot's discretion.

So you lay out an alternative but don't see the incredibly obvious counter argument / corollary?

IS gets structure to compensate for smaller payload of a STD engine
or
IS gets structure to compensate for MUCH more fragile XL engin

[Y E O N N E]

Grimlox, there are two PPCs. Surely you aren't proposing that a standard PPC be constrained to the same use-case as what you are obviously prescribing to the ER PPC.

Adamski, on 25 January 2016 - 04:41 PM, said:

So you lay out an alternative but don't see the incredibly obvious counter argument / corollary?

IS gets structure to compensate for smaller payload of a STD engine
or
IS gets structure to compensate for MUCH more fragile XL engin

One of them is the more powerful corollary, though, and it's not the one you claim. The fact that almost all of the most competitive IS builds are running XL and have always done so should tell you as much. That everybody was complaining about CXL durability vs IS XL should tell you as much.

Basically, using an XL engine provides the single largest push toward making an IS 'Mech more competitive with a Clan 'Mech, reducing the necessary magnitude of the quirks. You don't need as much durability (ironic, I know) because you can get out of the way and spread damage much more effectively, you don't need as much cool-down because you can fit a bigger single-strike, and you don't need as much heat-gen because you can already fit more heat-sinks.

Speed is king.

Trying to buff for STD builds just makes the XL builds abusive.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 25 January 2016 - 04:48 PM.

[TexAce]

FupDup, on 24 January 2016 - 08:06 PM, said:

It's a Gyrok thread that people are...actually taking seriously. Especially when it's a thread about faction balance. Never thought I'd see that in my lifetime.

At this rate, maybe Russ will finally get around to fixing Flamers...

Its because we have many new players who yet dont know who Gyrok is and why its wrong to take him seriously.

Its like preaching to kids. They'll believe everything.

Edited by TexAce, 25 January 2016 - 04:50 PM.

[Aresye]

MerryIguana, on 25 January 2016 - 11:28 AM, said:

I remember clan launch a bit differently.

Closing to brawl range wasn't a guaranteed win against the post-launch Clans, but it did offer the best chance of winning because the Clans had little to no PPFLD options.

Jabilac, on 25 January 2016 - 12:27 PM, said:

Maybe threads like these would be taken more seriously by a larger group of the player population if they didn't appear every few weeks. Ever since Clans were introduced I've read these threads constantly. "X side is stronger because of these certain set of examples I will introduce." Most of the time the OP doesn't actually want balance they want their side to be stronger because obviously its a balance problem and not the player.

The problems with the quirk system go much farther back than the December rebalance, which is why these threads have existed for quite some time.

As long as quirks allow one side to have a set of best mechs for every type of play style, and the other side has okay mechs in only one type of play style, there will be these threads.

nitra, on 25 January 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

but now to many people are lending way to much cred to this vid.. show me some real engagements with clan vs IS i wanna see a peek a boo match of a raven vs cute fox fire starter vs cheetah timber wolf vs orion etc etc etc .. not this sit back and hide and do nothing matches we just watched ...

Remember, these were TWO separate teams that each played Clan for 3 games, and the team that played Clan for the second half got the opportunity to observe first hand what didn't work for us. The reason you saw the second team do the exact same thing is because even though it clearly didn't work for us, it was still the best option given the map, game type, and competitive strategy.

If you're unhappy with the results, you're free to set up and organize YOUR own balance test. Although I'll spare you the time:
- Raven will win over Kit Fox.
- Firestarter will win over Cheetah.
- Timberwolf will win over Orion.

You and others can throw your spreadsheet numbers around as much as you want. All you're proving is that with no quirks, no torso twisting, and no semblance of competent play whatsoever, the Clans will win. I guess if you're wanting to balance the game for the Tier 5 underhive that's great and all, but meanwhile in reality, any player that has at least an average level of competence is going to be able to consolidate everything from laser range quirks to mobility and structure buffs to use to their advantage.

*Btw, speaking of spreadsheets, did you know that a BJ-3 with 3 LPLs has a higher damage output per 0.1s of laser burn than an EBJ w/ 2 CLPL + 4 CERML?

But you guys don't account for that. You use vanilla numbers to prove your point, and those vanilla numbers don't mean **** in-game when players aren't using weapons and chassis with vanilla stats.

The fact of the matter is this balance test is just supplemental evidence. Anybody who understands competitive play who can account for defensive posturing and chassis/weapon quirks in their calculations is going to arrive to the same conclusion: "If you want to be competitive today, you bring IS mechs."

But go ahead and disregard the competitive community and bring Clan mechs to the upcoming tournament. I'm sure many of us comp players would love to be able to take it easy for the first few rounds.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Aresye, on 25 January 2016 - 04:55 PM, said:

*Btw, speaking of spreadsheets, did you know that a BJ-3 with 3 LPLs has a higher damage output per 0.1s of laser burn than an EBJ w/ 2 CLPL + 4 CERML?

Which is why some of us *cough*me*cough* run ALL THE LASERS (2 LPL-6 ERML) so you can't get outpoked by the BJ-3.

[Y E O N N E]

Vanilla numbers should only be used to discuss why there are quirks and how to balance without them. They should not be used to discuss current state of balance.

Often we'll get into a conceptual thread where players will try to claim quirks when the thread is about why those quirks exist and what we can do to get rid of them. This is not one of those threads.

[Mawai]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 January 2016 - 03:17 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure he was alluding to the fact that cLPL-cERML boats were hurt at the 600m range hard with the nerfing of the cERML max range since very few mechs boated only cERMLs.

Lets see ... how hard were they nerfed? Considering that they are already firing beyond their optimal and the IS equivalent weapon is the ML which has a maximum range of 540m anyway.

405 optimal 810 max

Damage at 600m = 7 *( 1- (600-405)/405) = 3.6 damage

405 optimal 688 max

Damage at 600m = 7 * (1-(600-405)/283) = 2.2 damage

Damage reduction of 39% at 600m ... basically losing up to 1.4 damage/laser.

Yep a definite nerf but when you compare it to the IS ML which does ZERO damage beyond 540m it still isn't bad at all.

C-LPL haven't been range nerfed at all and still have an effective range of 600m.


Unless you are balancing the C-ERML against the IS LL .. then the maximum range nerf is actually very justifiable since the un-nerfed clan ERML had range and damage properties more comparable to the IS large laser which is 5 tons and 2 slots compared to 1 ton and 1 slot.

The problem is that folks get used to weapons having a certain level of effectiveness and enjoy running their mechs that way ... so when things change to better balance the game overall ... the reaction is typically negative. No one likes nerfs. However, unless you want to increase time to kill (which is a bad idea in my opinion ... then nerfing is the way to go).

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mawai, on 25 January 2016 - 05:31 PM, said:

Lets see ... how hard were they nerfed? Considering that they are already firing beyond their optimal and the IS equivalent weapon is the ML which has a maximum range of 540m anyway.

No, the IS equivalent was not the iML, it was the iLL, which was a problem until they buffed a lot of the IS energy boats and nerfed it so they were more comparable to the iLPL.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 January 2016 - 05:36 PM.

[Aresye]

Yeonne Greene, on 25 January 2016 - 05:26 PM, said:

Vanilla numbers should only be used to discuss why there are quirks and how to balance without them. They should not be used to discuss current state of balance.

Often we'll get into a conceptual thread where players will try to claim quirks when the thread is about why those quirks exist and what we can do to get rid of them. This is not one of those threads.

And when quirks that are meant to fix an imbalance end up creating an imbalance in the other direction, there is still an imbalance that is just as valid as there was before, regardless of which side it applies to.

People trying to justify the imbalance because of previous imbalances are what the problem is.

I'm sorry that most players are supremely bad in this game, to the point they feel the super quirks aren't that big of a deal because it makes them think they're playing better against Clan mechs when in reality they're getting a pseudo boost in their ability, but meanwhile I'm sitting on $500 of content that I now cannot realistically use in the competitive scene unless required to per league rules.

[Adamski]

Mawai, on 25 January 2016 - 05:31 PM, said:

Lets see ... how hard were they nerfed? Considering that they are already firing beyond their optimal and the IS equivalent weapon is the ML which has a maximum range of 540m anyway.

405 optimal 810 max

Damage at 600m = 7 *( 1- (600-405)/405) = 3.6 damage

405 optimal 688 max

Damage at 600m = 7 * (1-(600-405)/283) = 2.2 damage

Damage reduction of 39% at 600m ... basically losing up to 1.4 damage/laser.

Yep a definite nerf but when you compare it to the IS ML which does ZERO damage beyond 540m it still isn't bad at all.

C-LPL haven't been range nerfed at all and still have an effective range of 600m.


Unless you are balancing the C-ERML against the IS LL .. then the maximum range nerf is actually very justifiable since the un-nerfed clan ERML had range and damage properties more comparable to the IS large laser which is 5 tons and 2 slots compared to 1 ton and 1 slot.

The problem is that folks get used to weapons having a certain level of effectiveness and enjoy running their mechs that way ... so when things change to better balance the game overall ... the reaction is typically negative. No one likes nerfs. However, unless you want to increase time to kill (which is a bad idea in my opinion ... then nerfing is the way to go).

Actually, cLPL has an OPTIMAL range of 600m (660m with module), easily effective to 900m.

[nitra]

Gyrok, on 25 January 2016 - 02:42 PM, said:

The people involved are competitive players.

I realize that you likely do not who they are, or how talented they are as players, and that will be your excuse to say that this was contrived and ineffectual toward the conversation.

However, I would invite you to try to bring a clan mech against one of those players in an IS mech and watch how quickly you die.

The issue arising from this video is the fact that not just 1 group, but both groups failed to have much if any success at all as clans. The IS was outright superior, and you could not get in range to make better trades as clans because of the flat superiority of IS mechs due to the quirks.

im sorry but i watched the video and i just keep coming back to that failed push on arctic. how that timby crossed the hill alone while the rest sat back watched him die then another went and the other 2 got ate from behind.

and you want me to draw some conclusion that some how clan weapons are ineffective from that ? (what was supposed to happen here ?? the lone timby should have destroyed the is assult and weaken the other 2 for the stormcrow to finish off, mean while the 2 clan assults one shot the 3 back stabbers ?? ) is that the expected out come ??

then to top it off in a later matchs that ranged black jack .... the lack of suppressing fire aginst that mech was just unbelievable. and to top it off the IS had 2 battle masters down in the hole, that could have been engaged and possible eliminated by two cheetahs but what happens .. the cheetahs run off ..... (WTH??)

and to further add insult to injury in another match they walk in the open for about 3 minutes when they could have easily rerouted on a more secure path .. finally a brawl ensues and the clan mechs actually get some kills before falling apart due to brutal march to the front ...

i play this game quite a bit and know the capabilities of the mechs that were in play and in these circumstances that played out it only demonstrated clan mechs being played very poorly. and ill go ahead and say it, they were played like targets on a shooting range. rewatch the vid its almost like watching duck hunt in isometric view.



and that black jack on artic... there was 4 freaking clan mechs 3 capable of countering him and only one half heartedly tries. cause i guarantee you in puglandia if a bj was to try that and the same mechs were in those positions paying attention that assault would not have fallen because he(the BJ) would have been engaged.

instead the clan mechs did not even try.

thus why this is a poor example it is painful to watch and even more painful to see the people citing this video as evidence as to why clans suck.

i run clan mechs from time to time and while i may not be as pleased with my ebj as i thought i would be . it is still effective at bringing the pain and inflicting a whole lot of damage . while it may not be the brawler i thought it was going to be thats my fault for not taking a timber wolf instead. and not because the mech is out gunned by the innersphere.

and just reiterating my point

this is a poor video to try and determine anything by . much less try to even balance mwo with.

Edited by nitra, 25 January 2016 - 06:12 PM.

[1453 R]

As a reminder to people doing laser math: you're comparing Clan Extended-Range lasers to (mostly) Sphere Standard lasers.
I'm aware I'm too Puglandia scrublord to get in on a balance discussion (how did a Gyrok thread become a serious balance discussion, again? o_O), but I feel like maybe the whole ER vs. Standard thing is actually really important to keep in mind. Since, y'know, eventually the Sphere will have its own ER lasers, and those ER lasers are well on their way to being strictly and utterly superior to the Clan versions if people keep trying to club CER-lasers down to be equivalent to/worse than Sphere standard lasers.

[Zibmo]

Summon3r, on 24 January 2016 - 08:02 PM, said:

nothing more then this needs to be said about anything MWO.

What did it say about MWO when clan mechs were released? And for a year and a piece afterwards?

[Aresye]

nitra, on 25 January 2016 - 06:06 PM, said:

this is a poor video to try and determine anything by . much less try to even balance mwo with.

ts32.gameservers.com:9207

That's the Church of Skill TS. Feel free to drop by and tell Proton and Celyth how to play the game.

[Mcgral18]

Adamski, on 25 January 2016 - 06:01 PM, said:

Actually, cLPL has an OPTIMAL range of 600m (660m with module), easily effective to 900m.

It deals 9 damage at 858M, as a matter of fact.


But, quirks in duration and Tick rate affect that. cLPL has a shorter duration than the isERLL by default.

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 January 2016 - 03:56 PM, said:

I'm still game for upping the cLPL and cERLL ghost heat limit, just because cERMLs feel more limited like iMLs currently. Then again bringing back cERMLs would also boost the cERML-Gauss vomit into safer levels.

I would consider it for the Clam ERLL if its current stats don't change, but the Clam LPL needs absolutely no buffing whatsoever.

For the ERMLs, I wonder how it would turn out if the max range got bumped back up at least a little bit in exchange for reducing the damage per shot to 6. Perhaps a small nudge up in duration time, because even at launch with 1.3 seconds they were beastmode (I'm not proposing that value to return of course).

[Thell]

Aresye, on 25 January 2016 - 06:58 PM, said:

ts32.gameservers.com:9207

That's the Church of Skill TS. Feel free to drop by and tell Proton and Celyth how to play the game.

Omg. I would pay to see most of these goons try to tell them how to play and then get absolutely slammed in a 1v1. Most people have rose colored glasses around here and think it comes down to "Durr my clan mechs aren't super op anymore QQ". Reality is that any competent person sees how things are without a bias.

[Y E O N N E]

Aresye, on 25 January 2016 - 05:37 PM, said:

And when quirks that are meant to fix an imbalance end up creating an imbalance in the other direction, there is still an imbalance that is just as valid as there was before, regardless of which side it applies to.

People trying to justify the imbalance because of previous imbalances are what the problem is.

I'm sorry that most players are supremely bad in this game, to the point they feel the super quirks aren't that big of a deal because it makes them think they're playing better against Clan mechs when in reality they're getting a pseudo boost in their ability, but meanwhile I'm sitting on $500 of content that I now cannot realistically use in the competitive scene unless required to per league rules.

It doesn't just hurt competition, either. Poor balance hurts everybody.

[nehebkau]

Anyone who actually plays this game outside of weekend warrior pug-mainia knows that IS vs Clan balance is off. I also find it funny the people questioning the tactics -- I have played with many of the players in the video and they know their stuff (In the silly pub matches they would be the 700-1500 damage players). Make trades at the start (get good trades) until you get an number advantage then push the enemy a little harder, rinse, repeat. This is what you saw and for these matches but the +structure, +armor, +range -Heat gen of the "meta" IS mech chassis are too much to consistently overcome by clanners. You will also notice that MOST of the dead mechs were from CT (front or rear) kills and most were in one piece when they went down which is a testament to the accuracy of the shooters.

As a Rank 20 IS pilot -- when the clans first came out they were brutal to fight and now, they are easy.

As an aside, what people DON'T bloody figure into the CERLL burn time is the amount of face-time you have to present in order to get a full burn -- its NOT just about the damage you do but the amount of damage your weapon fire time makes you risk. That goes for the Clan auto-cannons with their spread-out firing as well. PGI makes the game, but I don't think they really understand the mechanics of the game and how they affect actual game play.

Edited by nehebkau, 25 January 2016 - 08:22 PM.