354 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

Deathlike, on 25 January 2016 - 08:52 PM, said:

Fixed now.

"Shut up Deathlike"

[Gyrok]

FupDup, on 25 January 2016 - 09:08 PM, said:

You said that my idea to at least somewhat restore the range couldn't happen, but now you said it could happen when talking to someone else. I feel unfairly treated.

In terms of heat, though, I actually don't see the need to reduce it to 5...just make the ERML 6 damage and 6 heat but restore the max range at least partially. It would still be an amazing deal for just 1 ton.

In my defense, keeping the heat higher helps keep a larger difference between it and the IS ML...and eventually the IS ERML (though I still wish for 3 heat on the IS ML and 4 or 4.5 heat on the IS ERML...nice things can't happen ).

Seriously...?

You think clans need damage per heat for all their weapons to be as bad, or worse, than the PPC family?

Nobody uses PPCs, mechs will have to use ERMLs at some point.

Then you say you are ok with MLs having almost double the damage per heat as the clan version?

Next, I suppose you are going to tell me that this is a reasonable position, and that IS mechs are fine, and that you have a bridge in brooklyn I can buy for a very reasonable rate....right?

Edited by Gyrok, 26 January 2016 - 06:10 AM.

[nehebkau]

Nearly impossible to get a reasonable response from these forums -- everyone is just trying to protect their own assets and not really giving a plug nickle about the game as a whole.

[Deathlike]

Gyrok, on 26 January 2016 - 06:09 AM, said:

Seriously...?

You think clans need damage per heat for all their weapons to be as bad, or worse, than the PPC family?

Nobody uses PPCs, mechs will have to use ERMLs at some point.

Then you say you are ok with MLs having almost double the damage per heat as the clan version?

Next, I suppose you are going to tell me that this is a reasonable position, and that IS mechs are fine, and that you have a bridge in brooklyn I can buy for a very reasonable rate....right?

PPCs across the board suffer from requiring velocity quirks, and nothing more.

Reducing heat only increased it's spammability, but not necessarily it's reliably at the range specified.

Using PPCs as a scapegoat doesn't really change your weak argument.

[Gyrok]

Deathlike, on 26 January 2016 - 07:03 AM, said:

PPCs across the board suffer from requiring velocity quirks, and nothing more.

Reducing heat only increased it's spammability, but not necessarily it's reliably at the range specified.

Using PPCs as a scapegoat doesn't really change your weak argument.

PPCs need better velocity, but the heat is atrocious on anything that is not the STD PPC.

The only way you will likely ever see clan ERPPCs come back full swing would be either if they got gauss rifle velocity, straight 15 damage, or some combination of the 2.

You could even make them more reasonable if you stretched out the cooldown so they literally *are* sniping weapons.

The thing that makes PPCs absurd is the up close DPS they can put out under duress. They should be at a huge disadvantage up close, and they currently are because the heat up close will make them unviable, but over range, since you cannot hit reliably, you cannot get damage advantage while you have range advantage.

Edited by Gyrok, 26 January 2016 - 07:08 AM.

[Deathlike]

Gyrok, on 26 January 2016 - 07:06 AM, said:

PPCs need better velocity, but the heat is atrocious on anything that is not the STD PPC.

The only way you will likely ever see clan ERPPCs come back full swing would be either if they got gauss rifle velocity, straight 15 damage, or some combination of the 2.

You could even make them more reasonable if you stretched out the cooldown so they literally *are* sniping weapons.

The thing that makes PPCs absurd is the up close DPS they can put out under duress. They should be at a huge disadvantage up close, and they currently are because the heat up close will make them unviable, but over range, since you cannot hit reliably, you cannot get damage advantage while you have range advantage.

So... you leave the IS ERPPC screwed?

Sounds like Gyrok balance to me.

Making CERPPCs do Gauss damage is certainly a form of TTK lowering, and would only benefit the Clans.

Edited by Deathlike, 26 January 2016 - 07:17 AM.

[Gyrok]

Deathlike, on 26 January 2016 - 07:16 AM, said:

So... you leave the IS ERPPC screwed?

Sounds like Gyrok balance to me.

I never said that...you ASSumed.

IS can go to ERPPC+Capacitor and have the same 15 or gauss velocity.

The regular IS ERPPC is going to be 10, up the velocity, and maybe drop heat to 13-ish

Edited by Gyrok, 26 January 2016 - 07:18 AM.

[Ghogiel]

So people are saying that when any players made an 8v8 clan drop deck to counter IS, they were doing it wrong.

So TheSilken needs to organise another clan v IS test and show you how a clan drop deck without CERLL does vs IS.

k den.

[Deathlike]

Gyrok, on 26 January 2016 - 07:17 AM, said:

I never said that...you ASSumed.

IS can go to ERPPC+Capacitor and have the same 15 or gauss velocity.

The regular IS ERPPC is going to be 10, up the velocity, and maybe drop heat to 13-ish

IS ERPPC+CAP = 8 tons, 4 crits
CERPPC = 6 tons, 2 crits

IS ERPPC+CAP = 15 damage, 20 heat
CERPPC = 15 damage, 15 heat

I'm sure that's "fair".

Edited by Deathlike, 26 January 2016 - 07:32 AM.

[Gyrok]

Deathlike, on 26 January 2016 - 07:30 AM, said:

IS ERPPC+CAP = 8 tons, 4 crits
CERPPC = 6 tons, 2 crits

IS ERPPC+CAP = 15 damage, 20 heat
CERPPC = 15 damage, 15 heat

I'm sure that's "fair".

Not really...but if you made the ERPPC+CAP 15/15 it would be fair enough.

[Gas Guzzler]

Ghogiel, on 26 January 2016 - 07:24 AM, said:

So people are saying that when any players made an 8v8 clan drop deck to counter IS, they were doing it wrong.

So TheSilken needs to organise another clan v IS test and show you how a clan drop deck without CERLL does vs IS.

k den.

I have backed down from that position. Honestly think the Clan teams could have played to their advantage a little bit better but it doesn't really matter.

[Deathlike]

Gyrok, on 26 January 2016 - 07:33 AM, said:

Not really...but if you made the ERPPC+CAP 15/15 it would be fair enough.

Committing an additional 2 tons and 2 crits compared to a weapon that fits in the CT of a Clan Mech (not saying it's a great idea either)..

Yea, "balanced".

Oh, I forgot, less range. PPC Caps don't increase range either.

Wonderful.

Edited by Deathlike, 26 January 2016 - 07:37 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Gyrok,

Is this really so hard to understand:

Clan XL >> IS XL > STD


Just because the firepower and mobility gained by taking an XL out weights the STD durability, doesn't mean that dying to side torso loss "doesn't matter".

[Gyrok]

Deathlike, on 26 January 2016 - 07:35 AM, said:

Committing an additional 2 tons and 2 crits compared to a weapon that fits in the CT of a Clan Mech (not saying it's a great idea either)..

Yea, "balanced".

Oh, I forgot, less range. PPC Caps don't increase range either.

Wonderful.

Range for ERPPC in MWO is exactly the same for IS and Clans.

Gas Guzzler, on 26 January 2016 - 07:38 AM, said:

Gyrok,

Is this really so hard to understand:

Clan XL >> IS XL > STD


Just because the firepower and mobility gained by taking an XL out weights the STD durability, doesn't mean that dying to side torso loss "doesn't matter".

Clan XL > LFE >> IS XL >> STD

EDIT: Picture your favorite IS assault mech that runs a STD engine...give it an LFE of the same size...

Edited by Gyrok, 26 January 2016 - 08:11 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Gyrok, on 26 January 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

Range for ERPPC in MWO is exactly the same for IS and Clans.

You can pummel a DWF at 1km with them pretty good, but with the velocity of ERPPCs right now having some extra range is kinda pointless imo.

[Deathlike]

Gyrok, on 26 January 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

Range for ERPPC in MWO is exactly the same for IS and Clans.

I was talking about the IS PPC. Getting the PPC cap adds the weight (tonnage+crits) for the damage+heat of the Clan ERPPC, but not the range. It's not a true equivalent.

Edited by Deathlike, 26 January 2016 - 08:17 AM.

[Gyrok]

Deathlike, on 26 January 2016 - 08:17 AM, said:

I was talking about the IS PPC. Getting the PPC cap adds the weight (tonnage+crits) for the damage+heat of the Clan ERPPC, but not the range. It's not a true equivalent.

ERPPC + Capacitor would be equal, I would be fine with the same range, the same damage, heat, velocity, etc. Keep it 3 crit slots and only up the weight 1 ton even, I am fine with that.

[Ghogiel]

Deathlike, on 26 January 2016 - 08:17 AM, said:

I was talking about the IS PPC. Getting the PPC cap adds the weight (tonnage+crits) for the damage+heat of the Clan ERPPC, but not the range. It's not a true equivalent.

Yall basically talking about TT **** that doesn't even exist in MWO, and even if it did come into MWO you still wouldn't know how PGI would impliment them until it was released. It's like 2 steps removed from a MWO balance discussion. In MWO PPC caps could add to range if it wanted. But balance and new tech are things PGI are kinda slow with, in the remedial as well as speed sense of the word.

[Deathlike]

Gyrok, on 26 January 2016 - 08:22 AM, said:

ERPPC + Capacitor would be equal, I would be fine with the same range, the same damage, heat, velocity, etc. Keep it 3 crit slots and only up the weight 1 ton even, I am fine with that.

That's not how the PPC Cap works in tonnage+crit requirements - arguably the only thing still sacrosanct in this game (following those rules to the death).

Ghogiel, on 26 January 2016 - 08:30 AM, said:

Yall basically talking about TT **** that doesn't even exist in MWO, and even if it did come into MWO you still wouldn't know how PGI would impliment them until it was released. It's like 2 steps removed from a MWO balance discussion. In MWO PPC caps could add to range if it wanted. But balance and new tech are things PGI are kinda slow with, in the remedial as well as speed sense of the word.

I'm fully aware. Binary lasers are available (especially for the Zeus), but new weapons is Lostech... let alone fixing existing ones (LBX and Flamers). Command Console is still a 3 ton mech air freshener.

Edited by Deathlike, 26 January 2016 - 08:33 AM.

[Gyrok]

Deathlike, on 26 January 2016 - 08:31 AM, said:

That's not how the PPC Cap works in tonnage+crit requirements - arguably the only thing still sacrosanct in this game (following those rules to the death).

Considering the fact that Clans now magically have a speed penalty on ST loss that never ever existed anywhere in BT/MW...I think it is pretty safe to say we can bend the rules for a core weapon to keep the balance on equal footing.

My biggest gripe about PGI, is the ignore rules when it does not make sense, and stick to rules that do not necessarily have to be adhered to as strictly.

The clan ST speed penalty still pisses me off...