354 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Aresye, on 25 January 2016 - 06:58 PM, said:

ts32.gameservers.com:9207

That's the Church of Skill TS. Feel free to drop by and tell Proton and Celyth how to play the game.

Nobody knows everything about the game, those guys make bad calls like everyone else. I get that every sports fan has that moment when they see otherwise star athletes run a bad play and throws a beer while yelling 'Earn that paycheck ya bum!' but the Clan play... well, it didn't look like it does in prior matches or when playing against said people.

I get that a lot of other factors were there. Maybe that felt like the best option even if it wasn't idea, maybe they just weren't sure how to pull it off, maybe there were no better options.

I come away from the video feeling more like balance doesn't work for that carefully curated situation, not that there's an overall balance issue that's got a 100% success rate for the IS.

Did you guys consider using LRMs? I heard those are OP now. The best response the Clans have to OP IS tech.

Seeing that in faction chat is why I just paid to break my already brief CJF contract. I'll come back later when there are parents home.

Edited by MischiefSC, 25 January 2016 - 08:17 PM.

[Deathlike]

This thread... ugh.

Aresye, on 25 January 2016 - 04:55 PM, said:

If you're unhappy with the results, you're free to set up and organize YOUR own balance test. Although I'll spare you the time:
- Raven will win over Kit Fox.
- Firestarter will win over Cheetah.
- Timberwolf will win over Orion.

You and others can throw your spreadsheet numbers around as much as you want. All you're proving is that with no quirks, no torso twisting, and no semblance of competent play whatsoever, the Clans will win. I guess if you're wanting to balance the game for the Tier 5 underhive that's great and all, but meanwhile in reality, any player that has at least an average level of competence is going to be able to consolidate everything from laser range quirks to mobility and structure buffs to use to their advantage.

I'm not sure why the Raven is being compared to a Kitfox.

I don't think the Firestarter always has the edge here. If you go the FS9-A route, 8 SPL to anyone's legs are pretty much done, but you have to close a bit more range. The Cheetah still has ECM (not really used for anti-LRMs/Streaks) and is still more agile than the Spider.

Pretty much anything is better than the Onion.

FupDup, on 25 January 2016 - 07:49 PM, said:

I would consider it for the Clam ERLL if its current stats don't change, but the Clam LPL needs absolutely no buffing whatsoever.

For the ERMLs, I wonder how it would turn out if the max range got bumped back up at least a little bit in exchange for reducing the damage per shot to 6. Perhaps a small nudge up in duration time, because even at launch with 1.3 seconds they were beastmode (I'm not proposing that value to return of course).

No. This can't happen.

The biggest discrepancies prior to the CERMED max range nerf is between that an the IS LL... usually in the form of tonnage trades.

What has to be looked at primarily is range and duration quirks... RELATIVE to the mechs they are given to.

For instance, if you give range quirks to mech that has high mounts, whether they be high torso mounts (Battlemasters, Thunderbolts, etc) or "high arms" (like a BJ), they gain much more than something like ones that don't.

A Black Knight with range quirks are nice, and while increasing their brawl range is sweet, you can't really snipe with them (pointless to run ERLL w/o exposing a significant portion of the mech).

Giving it crazy range to something like a Lolcust doesn't matter (outside of the 1E) as the limited hardpoints (and certain hardpoint locations) are awful.


Though, I'm still here to say "Shut up Gyrok".

Edited by Deathlike, 25 January 2016 - 08:52 PM.

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 25 January 2016 - 08:29 PM, said:

This thread... ugh.
Aresye, on 25 January 2016 - 07:55 PM, said:

- Raven will win over Kit Fox.
- Firestarter will win over Cheetah.
- Timberwolf will win over Orion.


I'm not sure why the Raven is being compared to a Kitfox.

I don't think the Firestarter always has the edge here. If you go the FS9-A route, 8 SPL to anyone's legs are pretty much done, but you have to close a bit more range. The Cheetah still has ECM (not really used for anti-LRMs/Streaks) and is still more agile than the Spider.

Pretty much anything is better than the Onion.

FupDup, on 25 January 2016 - 10:49 PM, said:

I would consider it for the Clam ERLL if its current stats don't change, but the Clam LPL needs absolutely no buffing whatsoever.

For the ERMLs, I wonder how it would turn out if the max range got bumped back up at least a little bit in exchange for reducing the damage per shot to 6. Perhaps a small nudge up in duration time, because even at launch with 1.3 seconds they were beastmode (I'm not proposing that value to return of course).

No. This can't happen.

The biggest discrepancies prior to the CERMED max range nerf is between that an the IS LL... usually in the form of tonnage trades.

What has to be looked at primarily is range and duration quirks... RELATIVE to the mechs they are given to.

For instance, if you give range quirks to mech that has high mounts, whether they be high torso mounts (Battlemasters, Thunderbolts, etc) or "high arms" (like a BJ), they gain much more than something like ones that don't.

A Black Knight with range quirks are nice, and while increasing their brawl range is sweet, you can't really snipe with them (pointless to run ERLL w/o exposing a significant portion of the mech).

Giving it crazy range to something like a Lolcust doesn't matter (outside of the 1E) as the limited hardpoints (and certain hardpoint locations) are awful.


Though, I'm still here to say "Shut up Gyrok".

Why are your quotes not in boxes like usual?

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 25 January 2016 - 08:34 PM, said:

Why are your quotes not in boxes like usual?

Chrome saves it when I accidentally close the tab while typing text for the post, I can fix the quotes though.

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 25 January 2016 - 08:34 PM, said:

Why are your quotes not in boxes like usual?

Still better than raw HTML

[Deathlike]

Fixed now.

[Aresye]

Deathlike, on 25 January 2016 - 08:29 PM, said:

The biggest discrepancies prior to the CERMED max range nerf is between that an the IS LL... usually in the form of tonnage trades.

Although there's no reason to say that mechs built to run a plethora of IS LL (ex: STK-4N) are suffering in any way because that weapon weighs more.

That's ultimately the problem with the quirk system. Instead of just simply changing weapon stats, mechs themselves had their stats changed to offset the tonnage and/or range imbalances for certain weapon systems.

For example, with the BJ-1X, it doesn't matter that the IS ML is not a good weapon. The BJ-1X itself makes the IS ML a good weapon.

I try not to think of it in terms of individual mechs, but as separate weapon systems. For example, the RVN-4X runs a different type of IS ERLL that has a sub-1s burn time and has the longest laser range of any other weapon system in the game. You don't argue its balance by saying, "Well the IS ERLL has a 1.25s burn time and the Clan has ___, thus ____." No, you directly compare the Clan ERLL with the type of ERLL the RVN-4X is carrying to figure out which one is more advantageous.

[Deathlike]

Aresye, on 25 January 2016 - 08:52 PM, said:

Although there's no reason to say that mechs built to run a plethora of IS LL (ex: STK-4N) are suffering in any way because that weapon weighs more.

That's ultimately the problem with the quirk system. Instead of just simply changing weapon stats, mechs themselves had their stats changed to offset the tonnage and/or range imbalances for certain weapon systems.

For example, with the BJ-1X, it doesn't matter that the IS ML is not a good weapon. The BJ-1X itself makes the IS ML a good weapon.

I try not to think of it in terms of individual mechs, but as separate weapon systems. For example, the RVN-4X runs a different type of IS ERLL that has a sub-1s burn time and has the longest laser range of any other weapon system in the game. You don't argue its balance by saying, "Well the IS ERLL has a 1.25s burn time and the Clan has ___, thus ____." No, you directly compare the Clan ERLL with the type of ERLL the RVN-4X is carrying to figure out which one is more advantageous.

The thing is, IS LL has not been changed very often, and honestly has never needed changing. CERMEDs on the other hand while still being a core weapon, has needed to be changed multiple times.

If we really wanted to "keep" its max range (prior to the max range nerf), then something along the lines of 1 less damage and 1 less heat would be more than enough. Then again, we haven't even tried that, and frankly I don't expect it to happen.

Better quirks on mechs that craptacular hardpoints is fine by me (Vindicator, Spider-5V, Mist Lynx, etc) is where it makes sense. Once you put it onto already good mechs is the most problematic.

In your example.. the Raven-4X suffers greatly from the near uselessness of the missile hardpoint, and the state of MGs (totally MIA in comp play). The question is how much the quirks to energy (2E total) should actually be).

Edited by Deathlike, 25 January 2016 - 09:03 PM.

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 25 January 2016 - 08:59 PM, said:

The thing is, IS LL has not been changed very often, and honestly has never needed changing. CERMEDs on the other hand while still being a core weapon, has needed to be changed multiple times.

If we really wanted to "keep" its max range (prior to the max range nerf), then something along the lines of 1 less damage and 1 less heat would be more than enough. Then again, we haven't even tried that, and frankly I don't expect it to happen.

You said that my idea to at least somewhat restore the range couldn't happen, but now you said it could happen when talking to someone else. I feel unfairly treated.

In terms of heat, though, I actually don't see the need to reduce it to 5...just make the ERML 6 damage and 6 heat but restore the max range at least partially. It would still be an amazing deal for just 1 ton.

In my defense, keeping the heat higher helps keep a larger difference between it and the IS ML...and eventually the IS ERML (though I still wish for 3 heat on the IS ML and 4 or 4.5 heat on the IS ERML...nice things can't happen ).

[stVillain]

ya the team play was more the problem than some IS ERLL.

also... downside to running an Arctic Cheetah... ok...

Edited by stVillain, 25 January 2016 - 09:18 PM.

[nitra]

I really think the only way to get a good measure where we stand balance wise is to measure target time to kill with x mech.

we take that raven-4x place it against lets say a atlas or a direwolf (something with a sizeable ct) and measure ttk

and repeat this for each mech and see where we stand ....

after we have a base line for each mech then we can do some field test to see how synthetics play out . (1 v 1 etc)

then do the competitive play tests using standard scenarios. aka typical center brawl. inter city mix up. and of course alpine peek and shoot .

then we will get a good idea of where these mechs actually stand. because while there is some concerns that are legitimate on the state of innersphere vs clan. it is no where near the disaster being demonstrated or heralded in this thread.

i would be more apt to say that if it is true that clans are having problems vs IS mechs its more due the lack of variety of clan mechs vs IS. and less to deal with the weaponry at this state in time.

[Ultimax]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 January 2016 - 04:57 PM, said:

Which is why some of us *cough*me*cough* run ALL THE LASERS (2 LPL-6 ERML) so you can't get outpoked by the BJ-3.

I start getting hitreg issues beyond 6 lasers :/

Deathlike, on 25 January 2016 - 08:29 PM, said:

I'm not sure why the Raven is being compared to a Kitfox.

It doesn't matter if its Kit Fox, Adder or ACH - none of them play the range build like a Raven does.

There is simply no answer to the Raven clan side, so for matches where its about range - you are unlikely to see clan lights.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 25 January 2016 - 09:08 PM, said:

You said that my idea to at least somewhat restore the range couldn't happen, but now you said it could happen when talking to someone else. I feel unfairly treated.

In terms of heat, though, I actually don't see the need to reduce it to 5...just make the ERML 6 damage and 6 heat but restore the max range at least partially. It would still be an amazing deal for just 1 ton.

In my defense, keeping the heat higher helps keep a larger difference between it and the IS ML...and eventually the IS ERML (though I still wish for 3 heat on the IS ML and 4 or 4.5 heat on the IS ERML...nice things can't happen ).

Well, to be fair, I'm not against any particular idea, but CERMEDs prior to the nerf needed some form of nerf... however it may be (outside of "hold for laserlock" vomit idea).

I'll be devil's advocate for my own ideas too.

Ultimatum X, on 25 January 2016 - 09:16 PM, said:

It doesn't matter if its Kit Fox, Adder or ACH - none of them play the range build like a Raven does.

There is simply no answer to the Raven clan side, so for matches where its about range - you are unlikely to see clan lights.

Prior to Ghost Heat for Clans in general, I remember seeing 3 ERLL for Kitfoxes... but that was a totally different era.

My issue with ERLL in general is the duration.

I'd simply reduce that duration quirk (anything above 10% needs to be looked at on a case by case basis) while reducing the duration on both by .1 second. CERLL may need a damage nerf of .5 or something along those lines...

For the IS specifically... the core problem is that the range buff (especially when you hit 20%) is rather incredible for the multitude of laser builds (especially with high mounted hardpoints).. I'd almost think giving ISERLL a range buff straight up, while lowering that particular quirk is beneficial (PPCs/ERPPCs don't benefit from that unless velocity quirks are involved - even then they don't need the range buff in the first place).

Edited by Deathlike, 25 January 2016 - 09:56 PM.

[J0anna]

nitra, on 25 January 2016 - 09:14 PM, said:

I really think the only way to get a good measure where we stand balance wise is to measure target time to kill with x mech.

we take that raven-4x place it against lets say a atlas or a direwolf (something with a sizeable ct) and measure ttk

and repeat this for each mech and see where we stand ....

after we have a base line for each mech then we can do some field test to see how synthetics play out . (1 v 1 etc)

then do the competitive play tests using standard scenarios. aka typical center brawl. inter city mix up. and of course alpine peek and shoot .

then we will get a good idea of where these mechs actually stand. because while there is some concerns that are legitimate on the state of innersphere vs clan. it is no where near the disaster being demonstrated or heralded in this thread.

i would be more apt to say that if it is true that clans are having problems vs IS mechs its more due the lack of variety of clan mechs vs IS. and less to deal with the weaponry at this state in time.

I've got a better idea. You've consistently stated in this thread that effectively, the players played the clan mechs incorrectly. You've pointed out errors that both sides made (even though the teams switched sides). I (unfortunately or fortunately , depends on your point of view) have dropped with and against quite a few of these players on more than one occasion. From my experience, they make very few errors, and usually get the better of me, but I don't consider myself their peer, so getting wiped isn't a surprise to me. So here's my simple proposal:

Take your best clan mechs and 7 to 11 of your buds and challenge these players to a series of matches. I doubt they would shy away from a challenge, and the rest of us would love to see what we're doing wrong. Perhaps we could even get PGI to broadcast it so everyone could learn. I would really like to see this.

Commenting about the matches, is interesting and all, but you obviously know the location of the enemy and you have no idea what the loadouts of the mechs were. Additionally have you watched this?

http://www.twitch.tv/celyth/v/37273720

I think it gives a better actual perspective of the battle. From what I saw, he was consistently losing range trades with IS mechs, and clan brawlers were consistently out brawled by IS brawlers, but I'm willing to learn, so hope to see your battle results at some time in the near future....

[Mcgral18]

Ultimatum X, on 25 January 2016 - 09:16 PM, said:

It doesn't matter if its Kit Fox, Adder or ACH - none of them play the range build like a Raven does.

There is simply no answer to the Raven clan side, so for matches where its about range - you are unlikely to see clan lights.

2X Raven 3ERLL VS SadCat is a comparison that could be made. 29 damage VS 26, 100M greater range, Raven wins Dam/tick race, with more damage as well.

SadCat is slightly ahead on heat efficiency, with 2-3 heatsinks, and 20 base heat VS 21.6 (?) for the Raven



That's a 10 ton difference, of course, and the SadCat is a fair bit bigger, but both have nice sniping mounts.

[Karmen Baric]

As the Clans have the close brawling edge with their boated SRM, laser builds & ultra AC dakka builds.... you play snipe the sniper ?

[Mcgral18]

Karmen Baric, on 25 January 2016 - 10:38 PM, said:

As the Clans have the close brawling edge with their boated SRM, laser builds & ultra AC dakka builds.... you play snipe the sniper ?

http://www.twitch.tv...720?t=01h25m00s

They tried that, pushing forward, in this match.
Didn't end well.

[Karmen Baric]

Mcgral18, on 25 January 2016 - 10:46 PM, said:

http://www.twitch.tv...720?t=01h25m00s

They tried that, pushing forward, in this match.
Didn't end well.

They could have sat back and forced you guys to engage, why they feel need to take disadvantage? Also these maps are not like CW maps, except Boreal Vault which is tough if enemy set up correctly to gates, all other CW maps allow brawling without too much difficulty that i can see (or leave Omega open to kill) and that is where Clans shine more (though Atlas is same).

There are some really good IS mechs, but so there are Clan mechs & the divide IMO isnt that great, though some changes to both sides mechs like Kitfox, Nova, BJ etc are warranted .

Edit, i suspect the disparity is more evident for good, coordinated teams and on certain maps, but its hard to cater for everything.

Edited by Karmen Baric, 25 January 2016 - 11:05 PM.

[Deathlike]

Pushing with CERLL is usually a bad idea.

The damage per tick is pitifully low.. to the point where you wonder if you're doing any damage... and that means poor trades at brawling range (more facetime for more unwanted heat). CLPL is better for what you need/want to do with your tonnage.

[Kuritaclan]

Deathlike, on 25 January 2016 - 09:53 PM, said:

Prior to Ghost Heat for Clans in general, I remember seeing 3 ERLL for Kitfoxes... but that was a totally different era.

Ghost Heat were introduced prior to clans. And clans got ghost heated from the get go. I never remember a triple Uac 20 that actually was possible to not overheat on a dime.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 25 January 2016 - 11:14 PM.