354 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

Kuritaclan, on 26 January 2016 - 07:01 PM, said:

Well most time I see a BJ this days, I favor to look for a weaker target first. Since if you don't have the force to crack open this mofos, like seen with the HBR it is usless to try to kill it. It's just a waste of heat into somthing that mostlikely survives, while you could eliminate with the same power a threat.

Which is fine. My point was that the Clan players in the OP's video had to deal with that kind of advantage on the OpFor x8, and they had less-than-ideal tools to do it with. They are going to most certainly play more cautious because they know it's an uneven playing field and they don't really know how to deal with that, or if they even can. The players in the test weren't stupid and they weren't unskilled. If anything, these six matches were just too small of a sample size. There weren't enough trials for Clan players to figure out the best solution to the IS problem and, although the sides switched, they didn't shuffle. Note, best solution does not mean the Clans will win. They might still lose.

[nitra]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 January 2016 - 06:51 PM, said:

Difference being Aresye was outnumbered 4 to 1 in that video...and it doesn't look like he was playing in a coordinated drop but I could be wrong on that count.

the bj in the op vid was also out numbered 4 to 1 differnt circumstances sure .... but in Aresye video there was an concerted effort to eliminate him, and it took a disparaging amount effort to do so. And lends to the bj may have to much structure argument.

referencing MischiefSC posts however . it comes back to where do we draw the line on mechs ? do we let the bj3 stand because it takes skill to play it that way ? or do we nerf it because in the right hands its a beast . or do we hope for a clan mech that can perform similar. which is supposed to be the storm crow. but apparently not ...

the thing is, this is the kind of play testing that pgi is supposed to be doing. and if mwo is going to be a serious competitive game they need answers to the questions being brought up in this thread.


and your absolutely right there needs to be more testing.

Edited by nitra, 26 January 2016 - 07:24 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Kuritaclan, on 26 January 2016 - 07:01 PM, said:

Well most time I see a BJ this days, I favor to look for a weaker target first. Since if you don't have the force to crack open this mofos, like seen with the HBR it is usless to try to kill it. It's just a waste of heat into somthing that mostlikely survives, while you could eliminate with the same power a threat.


Nicly down played for something that punches right above of his weight class. For me thats not solid perfoming, that is outstanding performing. - But non or less, this is a know issue, so not worth debating.

BJ3 needs the range and burn time reduction removed. Structure quirks are not a terrible thing, the problem is the ability to plop out 3LPLs of hate in someones face in 0.5 or less and do it at 400-500m.

I'm a fan of structure and mobility quirks. I'd rather all weapon quirks got removed and weapons got balanced.

[Y E O N N E]

People will just shift to the other Blackjacks as quirks are changed, whichever continues to have the most potent mix.

And the ballistics velocity/heat/cool-down quirks need to stay, or at least need to be directed at AC/2. I've never had as much fun with the Blackjack as I've had since the AC/2 became hilariously awesome on it.

[Kuritaclan]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 January 2016 - 07:09 PM, said:

Which is fine. My point was that the Clan players in the OP's video had to deal with that kind of advantage on the OpFor x8, and they had less-than-ideal tools to do it with. They are going to most certainly play more cautious because they know it's an uneven playing field and they don't really know how to deal with that, or if they even can. The players in the test weren't stupid and they weren't unskilled. If anything, these six matches were just too small of a sample size. There weren't enough trials for Clan players to figure out the best solution to the IS problem and, although the sides switched, they didn't shuffle. Note, best solution does not mean the Clans will win. They might still lose.

What a lousy excuse - THe samplesize is to small, jada jada jada. It is a showcase not an evaluation. And even if you do a larger size of such events, nothing will change. Clans don't have options to chose from, since they are stuck with a set of weapons that perform decent and a bick pack of ****. ER PPC = ********, ERLL vs enemy who can twist = ********, UACs unreliable in best case. SRM Bombs you get decimated before you arrive to unload a more spreading random blob into your enemy.

MischiefSC, on 26 January 2016 - 07:22 PM, said:

BJ3 needs the range and burn time reduction removed. Structure quirks are not a terrible thing, the problem is the ability to plop out 3LPLs of hate in someones face in 0.5 or less and do it at 400-500m.

I'm a fan of structure and mobility quirks. I'd rather all weapon quirks got removed and weapons got balanced.

I don't have an awnser what needs to be done with BJs, but what i can say about them right now they are pretty hard nuts to crack open. PGI will do soemthing i guess in the next patch - what it will be and if it will make the mech solid, quel sera sera.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 26 January 2016 - 07:31 PM.

[MischiefSC]

I'm fine with BJs and ballistic buffs. Energy buffs, especially range and duration, they create issues. The BJ was never a bad chassis to begin with. Why it got kicked up to be the Scrow competitor I don't know.

PGI, put the BJ back in the privacy of the front seat of the car on a road trip where BJs belong (maybe the occasional parking lot) and buff up any of the IS 55 tonners. IT wouldn't take a lot for the Shawk or Griffin to neck and neck it with a Scrow.

Then we're in a better place for dropdecks by comparison. Would be nice for Clans to get some good all-around assaults. The Dire does his job but there's nothing worth a fart in a mitten between him and the TW.

[Y E O N N E]

Kuritaclan, on 26 January 2016 - 07:28 PM, said:

What a lousy excuse - THe samplesize is to small, jada jada jada. It is a showcase not an evaluation. And even if you do a larger size of such events, nothing will change. Clans don't have options to chose from, since they are stuck with a set of weapons that perform decent and a bick pack of ****. ER PPC = ********, ERLL vs enemy who can twist = ********, UACs unreliable in best case. SRM Bombs you get decimated before you arrive to unload a more spreading random blob into your enemy.

Wut. I think we are agreeing, but you might've missed the last 3 or 4 pages. I know the Clans don't have the options. Nitra was saying that it didn't look like the Clan players were even trying...which I scoffed at because they most certainly were.

Also, the whole premise for that conversation was one commentator, Jabilac, saying testing should be done with 'Mechs that are standing still and blasting at each other with no twisting, and Nitra was supporting him. Now Nitra's stance has slowly been shifted in favor of active, real-world testing.

MischiefSC, on 26 January 2016 - 07:29 PM, said:

I'm fine with BJs and ballistic buffs. Energy buffs, especially range and duration, they create issues. The BJ was never a bad chassis to begin with. Why it got kicked up to be the Scrow competitor I don't know.

PGI, put the BJ back in the privacy of the front seat of the car on a road trip where BJs belong (maybe the occasional parking lot) and buff up any of the IS 55 tonners. IT wouldn't take a lot for the Shawk or Griffin to neck and neck it with a Scrow.

Then we're in a better place for dropdecks by comparison. Would be nice for Clans to get some good all-around assaults. The Dire does his job but there's nothing worth a fart in a mitten between him and the TW.

Don't forget to buff the SCat while they're at it, pls.

[nitra]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 January 2016 - 07:31 PM, said:

Wut. I think we are agreeing, but you might've missed the last 3 or 4 pages. I know the Clans don't have the options. Nitra was saying that it didn't look like the Clan players were even trying...which I scoffed at because they most certainly were.

Also, the whole premise for that conversation was one commentator, Jabilac, saying testing should be done with 'Mechs that are standing still and blasting at each other with no twisting, and Nitra was supporting him. Now Nitra's stance has slowly been shifted in favor of active, real-world testing.



Don't forget to buff the SCat while they're at it, pls.

dont get me wrong there now, im still for synthetics like that raven vs ebj vid, thats what im talking about,

several tests like that and if they show that ebj being owned by that raven repeatedly and then in the real world battle test, the same holds true then you know you have a problem .

so yeah keep me on the side for synthetics they have their place just like the real world tests .

Edited by nitra, 26 January 2016 - 07:39 PM.

[Kuritaclan]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 January 2016 - 07:31 PM, said:

Wut. I think we are agreeing, but you might've missed the last 3 or 4 pages. I know the Clans don't have the options. Nitra was saying that it didn't look like the Clan players were even trying...which I scoffed at because they most certainly were.

Also, the whole premise for that conversation was one commentator, Jabilac, saying testing should be done with 'Mechs that are standing still and blasting at each other with no twisting, and Nitra was supporting him. Now Nitra's stance has slowly been shifted in favor of active, real-world testing.

I didn't read all the jibber jabber of the last pages. But you did the same jibber jabber what was used as arguments before. Anyway. And yes static tests don't conclude anything. Environment and Pilot Skill is to much of an influential variable to give a **** on raw numbers.

[Y E O N N E]

nitra, on 26 January 2016 - 07:38 PM, said:

dont get me wrong there now, im still for synthetics like that raven vs ebj vid, thats what im talking about,

several tests like that and if they show that ebj being owned by that raven repeatedly and then in the real world battle test, the same holds true then you know you have a problem .

so yeah keep me on the side for synthetics they have their place just like the real world tests .

But that wasn't synthetic. They were moving and twisting, etc. Jabilac wanted static. No movement. No twisting. Nada.

[Davers]

nitra, on 26 January 2016 - 07:11 PM, said:

the bj in the op vid was also out numbered 4 to 1 differnt circumstances sure .... but in Aresye video there was an concerted effort to eliminate him, and it took a disparaging amount effort to do so. And lends to the bj may have to much structure argument.

referencing MischiefSC posts however . it comes back to where do we draw the line on mechs ? do we let the bj3 stand because it takes skill to play it that way ? or do we nerf it because in the right hands its a beast . or do we hope for a clan mech that can perform similar. which is supposed to be the storm crow. but apparently not ...

the thing is, this is the kind of play testing that pgi is supposed to be doing. and if mwo is going to be a serious competitive game they need answers to the questions being brought up in this thread.


and your absolutely right there needs to be more testing.

This is the $100,000 question, isn't it? They want to create a competitive Esports scene when only 5% of the mechs in the game are considered competitive, most with the same load out. Do they even have a design philosophy for weight class balance? They seem to want to balance by tonnage, but in most cases the heaviest mechs aren't the best and the lightest weapons are better than their heavier counterparts. Not to mention the whole Clan vs IS thing. The game modes are crap, the night maps makes MWO the first unwatchable Esport, and balance is 'the best it has ever been' which is setting the bar really ******* low.

[nitra]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 January 2016 - 07:47 PM, said:

But that wasn't synthetic. They were moving and twisting, etc. Jabilac wanted static. No movement. No twisting. Nada.

i wouldnt call that real world either.

and i know where you coming from about simple face off . but when it comes to synthetic testing
tests like the raven vs ebj can be used to highlight possible problems and if they repeatable and then demonstrable on the real world test like regular and comp matches, then you know for sure you have an issue .


just like the bj3 a good synthetic of it facing off with a dire wolf and defeating it repeatedly. then being demonstrated repeatedly as in the op and similar videos would make for some damning evidence.


static mech vs static mech stand off may be useless, but a good synthetic of mech vs mech should not be underestimated.

Edited by nitra, 26 January 2016 - 08:06 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

But nobody was necessarily putting down 'Mech vs. 'Mech, only Jabilac's idea that a face-off should be static. In fact, 'Mech vs. 'Mech is necessary because, even assuming all weapons are equal, you have to do that to find the weak points for the 'Mech itself.

That said, an ERLL Raven beating an ERLL EBJ isn't totally out of line. It's an EBJ playing the Raven's game. Even if they had exactly the same guns, it should be a close game in either direction since the Raven has a tiny profile with high mounts and speed, all of which synergize well with extreme-range play.

[nitra]

Davers, on 26 January 2016 - 08:02 PM, said:

This is the $100,000 question, isn't it? They want to create a competitive Esports scene when only 5% of the mechs in the game are considered competitive, most with the same load out. Do they even have a design philosophy for weight class balance? They seem to want to balance by tonnage, but in most cases the heaviest mechs aren't the best and the lightest weapons are better than their heavier counterparts. Not to mention the whole Clan vs IS thing. The game modes are crap, the night maps makes MWO the first unwatchable Esport, and balance is 'the best it has ever been' which is setting the bar really ******* low.

the sad thing is they have strayed so far from TT that they cant even use that for inspiration . on creating a good competitive e-sport .. so they are really just winging it ..

maybe they will pull it off cause i would love to see some serious MWO SOLARIS BATTLE ROYALE.


but they have some serious issues to overcome before that becomes an entertaining esport, 30 second matches maybe to short to keep e-sporters entertained... but hopefully i am wrong ??

[Quicksilver Aberration]

nitra, on 26 January 2016 - 08:13 PM, said:

but they have some serious issues to overcome before that becomes an entertaining esport, 30 second matches maybe to short to keep e-sporters entertained... but hopefully i am wrong ??

30-second matches, where in the world did you get that from.....

[nitra]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 January 2016 - 08:10 PM, said:

But nobody was necessarily putting down 'Mech vs. 'Mech, only Jabilac's idea that a face-off should be static. In fact, 'Mech vs. 'Mech is necessary because, even assuming all weapons are equal, you have to do that to find the weak points for the 'Mech itself.

That said, an ERLL Raven beating an ERLL EBJ isn't totally out of line. It's an EBJ playing the Raven's game. Even if they had exactly the same guns, it should be a close game in either direction since the Raven has a tiny profile with high mounts and speed, all of which synergize well with extreme-range play.

and thats what that synthetic showed a close match if it was repeatable and demonstrable in the realworld then the only thing left, is do we as a player base except it ? then we move on to the next match up like that bj3 vs direwolf. until we get to the nitty gritty timber wolf vs marauder warhammer cataphract. then we will know if it is true that IS is more op than clan

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 January 2016 - 08:22 PM, said:

30-second matches, where in the world did you get that from.....

solaris 1 on 1 aginst two highly skilled players in meta mechs most likely some ones going to go down quick. with the current ttk we have in game.

Edited by nitra, 26 January 2016 - 08:44 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

nitra, on 26 January 2016 - 08:26 PM, said:

and thats what that synthetic showed a close match if it was repeatable and demonstrable in the realworld then the only thing left, is do we as a player base except it ? then we move on to the next match up like that bj3 vs direwolf. until we get to the nitty gritty timber wolf vs marauder warhammer cataphract. then we will know if it is true that IS is more op than clan

No, no you won't, because having teammates matter and affects both how you play and what you play.

For example, SJR was doing a little science a few weeks ago about what was the best brawling heavy, the Timmy, Srmmoner, or Splat Doge. Guess what the results were: Splat Doge > Srmmoner > Timmy. That doesn't stop us from realizing the Timmy is the best team player though because it can sponge damage better than the Splat Doge and is slightly harder to leg than the Srmmoner (though the Srmmoner is still a decent choice imo). 1v1s are not going to be accurate for a game that is mostly played in teams. Even team size can change how you play, 12v12s are not the same as 8v8s and you would not necessarily take the same things; alphas are more important the smaller the team size, whereas DPS is a little more important in the 12v12s, don't be confused though, alphas are still important, but less so than in smaller matches.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 January 2016 - 08:59 PM.

[Kuritaclan]

nitra, on 26 January 2016 - 08:26 PM, said:

and thats what that synthetic showed a close match if it was repeatable and demonstrable in the realworld then the only thing left, is do we as a player base except it ? then we move on to the next match up like that bj3 vs direwolf. until we get to the nitty gritty timber wolf vs marauder warhammer cataphract. then we will know if it is true that IS is more op than clan

what does the last examples mean in 1vs1 - that does nothing say about an team vs team environment. A SRM Bomb Timber will mostlikley outtrade a phract and a marauder too, but such short rang builds may never arrive their counterpart in tonnage in a team vs team situation. So to speak thats crack pot wisdom generated trying to make evidence out of 1vs1 situations in a teamplay game.

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 January 2016 - 08:57 PM, said:

-
For example, SJR was doing a little science a few weeks ago about what was the best brawling heavy, the Timmy, Srmmoner, or Splat Doge....

The only thing I could think of while reading this was...

TIMMAH!!

Edited by FupDup, 26 January 2016 - 09:11 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

I have done my job then.