91 replies to this topic

[mclang]

Hello.

I was thinking about buying either Saitek/CH rudder pedals or CH Pro Throttle to accompany my Thrustmaster Warthog. Which one would be better purchase for MWO?

Is anybody using the X/Y miniature joystick of the CH Pro Throttle to turn the mech?

I think the rudder pedals would be better because they could be used also in driving games (can they?), but the throttle would give me more buttons to handle my mech... And throttle would be better fit in space games like freespace 2 and Elite: Dangerous.

[Mystere]

Why would you need a CH Pro Throttle to accompany your Thrustmaster Warthog? Or do you only have the stick? If you do only have the stick, I recommend completing the HOTAS Warthog set by getting th throttle. Compared to that, that CH Pro Throttle looks flimsy.

Then get a rudder.

Edited by Mystere, 26 January 2016 - 02:04 PM.

[evilC]

Buy a Thrustmaster T-Flight Hotas X and just use the throttle component.

It's dirt cheap, and the Hotas X throttle unit has a rudder rocker on the underside - so you get analog steering and throttle for one low price. I use a mouse and the Hotas X throttle to play - no keyboard.
It's pretty junky, but for the level of granularity needed for MWO (And also MWO has massive deadzones that you can do nothing about), it's fine.

[Warpig1227]

Agreed on the Thrustmaster HOTAS X. You can get them for ~$40 and the throttle is perfect for MWO and MW4 Mercs (haven't tried with any other MW games). The throttle rocker is great for turning and it has six additional buttons in easy reach. Only issue I noticed is the sensitivity of the rocker. The added throttle control gives you greater speed control, great for escorting slower assaults and slowly peaking out of cover. Turning with the keyboard ends up a little faster than the sensitivity of the hotel allows but being able to turn more slowly than full left/right is great for small corrections when zipping between buildings. I see evilC has a joystick configure program in his signature, that may resolve the issue.

[Nam Neckcrit]

yep, go for thrustmaster hotas X. good hardware for that price tag.

[evilC]

Yup, you can use UJR to combine the Hotas X and your Warthog into one virtual stick, for those games that only accept input from one stick at a time, or to make tweaks to the sensitivity etc of the Hotas X (Which lacks any remapping software).

I also have a new replacement for UJR called UCR that does keyboard and mouse as well as joysticks At some point, my other apps (eg Fire Control) will be merged into UCR also, so you would be able to configure things like TAG toggle and proper chain fire all from one app.

IMHO analog throttle is more important than analog steering. Being able to instantly throw the throttle to any position is far quicker than holding W or S and watching until the throttle hits the point you want to be at. The Hotas X throttle is also good in this regard as it has a notch at the center position, so you can feel where the stop point is at.

Edited by evilC, 02 February 2016 - 11:53 AM.

[mclang]

Sorry for the late reply.

Yes, I have only Warthog stick b/c I got it cheap. I have looked to buy the throttle also, but it is darn expensive

I looked also Thrustmaster HOTAS X but I wasn't sure if the throttle works separately. Good to know that it does, so I may well purchase one. But I think analog throttle isn't so important for me b/c I have buttons in my joystick for full throttle and reverse, so I can quickly toggle the speed when needed.

Now if I just could increase the dead zone of my joystick forward/backward direction so that steering wouldn't reset speed so easily... That is why I have been thinking pedals. By the way, couldn't I use pedals for steering and throttle?

Thanks evilC for your programs!

[PocketAces]

mclang, on 04 February 2016 - 10:17 PM, said:

By the way, couldn't I use pedals for steering and throttle?

Thanks evilC for your programs!

I don't think you can, i tried to do it back in late 2014 and it didn't work well, the control config may have changed since then and I will be giving it another go, as I know have my cockpit all set up.

Agree with the sentiments, thanks evilC, your configs are always a great help.

[evilC]

Given utils like UJR / UCR, you can use anything to control anything, so as long as the foot rudders had two axes (yaw and tilt of foot plates) then yes you could use them for speed and steering.
I do not own a set of rudder pedals, but my understanding is that in general they are not designed to be able to flick quickly from max deflection one way to max deflection the other, they are often damped to stop you doing that.
If piloting a light, I do not think you would be able to physically manipulate rudder pedals quickly enough.
You would probably also not be able to use a swivel chair while using them, without some kind of bungee cord setup or something to hold your chair still.

Also, if using the pedals for two axes, you would probably experience some "bleed through" (eg you try to apply a bit of toe tilt to one pedal, but you yaw slightly too) as you are seeing with a joystick.

With the Hotas X setup, there is zero bleed-through - you get analog steering and throttle, and can throw it around real quick which is what you need in lighter mechs.
You cannot use the Hotas X throttle on it's own, it plugs into the Joystick part, but they appear as one device and there is a good foot or so of cord between them, so you can just tuck the joystick part away somewhere.

If you suffer from bleed-through and you want to set per-axis deadzones to help avoid it, then UJR/UCR can do that for you.

From what you have posted, it seems you have tried analog throttle with a joystick, but in what mode?
I am guessing "relative" mode, whereby you push forward to speed up, pull back to slow down, and keep the stick in the middle to keep the same speed.
This is nothing like as good as "absolute mode" with an *unsprung* axis (ie a proper throttle) whereby full forward is max speed forward, full back is max speed back, and middle is stopped. The beauty of this mode is that you can instantly set any speed without having to wait and without having to look at any UI elements to tell what the speed is set to. It may take the mech some time to adjust to this speed, but the action of telling the mech which speed you want is much quicker and much more accurate.

[mclang]

Didn't think about the damping of toe tilt .

That makes it easy - at this point it is better to buy throttle than pedals.

Currently I'm using my warthog on my left hand as throttle and steering. Throttle works in absolute mode, but due to the spring I would like to change it to relative and make the throttle axis dead zone bigger to prevent the bleed-through from steering you mentioned.

I know this is possible to do with TARGET, but I don't know how

I wish I could find the TARGET script that LocNar and other people are using when aiming with joystick so that I could try also that.

[mclang]

Hey evilC, I found again your HOTAS X modification thread.

So I'm thinking (again) about using HOTAS X throttle with some usb joystick board and get rid of the joystick... Later I could improve the throttle with hall sensor and possibly more buttons

But as it was before, it might be that I rather play with my current setup than use the precious hours to do the modding.

Edited by mclang, 07 February 2016 - 10:07 PM.

[evilC]

mclang, on 05 February 2016 - 10:49 PM, said:

Didn't think about the damping of toe tilt .

It's not the damping on the toe tilt that would be the problem, it would be the damping on the yaw (steering). Very large range of travel + damping = slow rail-to-rail speed.

mclang, on 05 February 2016 - 10:49 PM, said:

I wish I could find the TARGET script that LocNar and other people are using when aiming with joystick so that I could try also that.

Even if you had it, it would probably require physically modifying your warthog to remove the spring before it was usable.
With absolute mode and a sprung stick, you would have to hold the stick EXACTLY in the same place to keep aiming at the same point. With a sprung stick, this would probably become very uncomfortable very quickly.

Even then, a regular length stick would probably not be good enough. Bear in mind that the warthog probably has a max deflection of no more than ~45deg, so to map that to a mech with a 180deg torso twist would mean that each degree of deflection of your warthog would map to 4 degrees of torso twist.
So the longer you can get the stick, the more granularity you would have.

[mclang]

Deflection of Warthog is about 30deg only, so each degree of warthog is six degrees of torso twist when using mech with 180deg torso twist... And then there is urban mech =)

Makes me think if using joystick is still stupid idea, even with an extension.

I'm planning to remove the spring from my stick anyway b/c it is then easier to use also as throttle. It seems easy to do and I can always put it back if needed. But I'm not sure about the extension, should I do it myself or buy one from ebay... I know that some garden hose connector has the right threading, but how to connect the wiring?

I know that I could use all this time to play with my current setup (warthog as throttle on left, G502 on right), but some people are playing with joysticks so I'd like to have that more simulator like feeling also. And dropping mouse would let my right hand rest.

Edited by mclang, 11 February 2016 - 11:10 PM.

[The Basilisk]

mclang, on 25 January 2016 - 12:39 PM, said:

Hello.

I was thinking about buying either Saitek/CH rudder pedals or CH Pro Throttle to accompany my Thrustmaster Warthog. Which one would be better purchase for MWO?

Is anybody using the X/Y miniature joystick of the CH Pro Throttle to turn the mech?

I think the rudder pedals would be better because they could be used also in driving games (can they?), but the throttle would give me more buttons to handle my mech... And throttle would be better fit in space games like freespace 2 and Elite: Dangerous.

No you should not use anything but mouse and keyboard.
Reason ?
Poor support of other devices in this game.
Further I found pedals, joystiks and other gaming equipment, even if correctly configured, detrimental to my reaction times and movement speed.
One thing I saw, that realy was awsome was a .... stunningly configured VR Helmet/ Glasses.
The guy I whatched used the glasses for torso and arm movement and some kind of configurable gaming keyboard ( not qwerty ) for controlling his mech.

Edited by The Basilisk, 12 February 2016 - 12:35 AM.

[evilC]

The Basilisk, on 12 February 2016 - 12:34 AM, said:

No you should not use anything but mouse and keyboard.
Reason ?
Poor support of other devices in this game.
Further I found pedals, joystiks and other gaming equipment, even if correctly configured, detrimental to my reaction times and movement speed.
One thing I saw, that realy was awsome was a .... stunningly configured VR Helmet/ Glasses.
The guy I whatched used the glasses for torso and arm movement and some kind of configurable gaming keyboard ( not qwerty ) for controlling his mech.

This is plain wrong.
Controlling AIMING using anything other than a mouse is not recommended. Analog input for steering and throttle is WAY better with a joystick. Reaction time (especially when using an unsprung throttle for speed) is much, much more responsive - "relative" throttle control with keyboard cannot possibly compete with "absolute" throttle control with a joystick.
Then you go on to extol the virtues of aiming with your head ?! Are you insane? What kind of headset was it? Unless it has optical tracking (Like how TrackIR works) then it will be vastly inferior to a mouse. Anything that uses Gyros or Magnetometers for view angle detection will be absolute junk compared to a mouse. Even the best optical tracking system with a very low latency would not be as accurate or comfortable to use as a mouse for aiming.

[Toxicresidue]

howdy I was reading the posts, don't know those joysticks yall are talking about. I use a Logitech extreme 3d pro.
It works pretty well and its cheap but its button and throttle placement is why I like it.

[Mystere]

evilC, on 12 February 2016 - 04:41 AM, said:

This is plain wrong.
Controlling AIMING using anything other than a mouse is not recommended. Analog input for steering and throttle is WAY better with a joystick. Reaction time (especially when using an unsprung throttle for speed) is much, much more responsive - "relative" throttle control with keyboard cannot possibly compete with "absolute" throttle control with a joystick.
Then you go on to extol the virtues of aiming with your head ?! Are you insane? What kind of headset was it? Unless it has optical tracking (Like how TrackIR works) then it will be vastly inferior to a mouse. Anything that uses Gyros or Magnetometers for view angle detection will be absolute junk compared to a mouse. Even the best optical tracking system with a very low latency would not be as accurate or comfortable to use as a mouse for aiming.

How about eye-tracking?

[mclang]

I have read all about how using joystick for aiming is inferior to mouse.

But still I'd like to use joystick if it is playable enough that PUG:in stays fun. I'm not a competitive player and simulation feeling is more important for me that getting to higher tier. There is people using joystick for throttle and mouse for aiming, which is very good setup, but there is also some who use joystick for aiming with good results.

But this thread was about whether I should buy throttle or rudder pedals, and I got my answer: Buy a throttle b/c due to damping normal pedals are too slow for turning mech.

Now I must find out how to do extension for my warthog, and remove the spring so that is is smoother to use as a throttle also.

Thank you all

[evilC]

Would you still plan on using the warthog X axis for steering?
If so, why make such a nice bit of kit useless for other games, only to make it a second-rate input method for MWO?
If you remove the spring, you would unspring both axes, and that is not going to be ideal. A throttle/steering device for MWO ideally should be sprung X and unsprung Y (With friction to hold Y in place without you having to hold it in place yourself), with zero bleed-through. A Warthog can *never* give you that, no matter how much you mod it.

Edited by evilC, 14 February 2016 - 05:27 AM.

[mclang]

I'm trying different things.

At SimHQ and other forums many think that spring-modded warthog feels better for flying because it lessens the center detent a lot. And by spring-modded I mean the operation where you remove the big heavy spring and move the four small ones from below to top like shown in this youtube video.

Mod is easy to do and reversible, so I tried it yesterday. The four springs have just enough force to center the stick from all but the front position. Of course it feels now a little bit sloppy to use when you are used to the original but I think it could be better than original when you learn to use it. Have to play more games with it to be sure.

I'm also planning to add extension to my stick. The ready made ones in ebay are too expensive, so I'm reading this thread in order to make my own. Who knows, maybe with extension I can even revert the spring mod?

After extension I will think again (and probably buy) Thrustmaster T-Flight Hotas X throttle.

By the way, what is currently the best USB board to use if I want to get rid of the T-Flight joystick and connect the throttle directly to my PC? Can I use the original potentiometers also with this new board or do I have to replace them with better sensors like you have done in your throttle evilC?