93 replies to this topic

[hybrid black]

Ragingdemon, on 26 January 2016 - 04:02 PM, said:

Title^

Now hear me out before you pull your flamers out, heh, but if the goal of this game is for the 2 factions to be on equal levels why not the price range on mechs? It would make sense especially if you want the clans to be populated at all for community warfare.

And lets face it, not many new players are willing to grind for something so expensive that plays on the same level of an inner sphere mech.

And before it's mentioned, yes clans to lore are more expensive cuz lore reasons yada yada yada. It's a cool concept, but isn't working out.

Thoughts?


TL;DR Up front prices on clan mechs too high for newer players to want to want or grind for. Redistribute clan mech costs without effecting total cost of the mechs.

Clan mech are the same price of is mechs with all the same parts.
By the time you buy the XL 330+ all the upgrades the clan and is mechs are the same price

[Khobai]

Quote

Your'e conveniently forgetting all the UACs, LBX, Streaks, ER lasers outside of Larges (you know, those pesky medium lasers that have the same ranges as IS regular large lasers?), smaller DHS, advanced targeting computers

Of course im forgetting them theyre garbage weapons. Youre seriously going to compare LBX and streaks to lasers? lolol.

[Revis Volek]

Ragingdemon, on 26 January 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

Just did on my Dragon total cost 8mill rounded down compaired to 12 mill mad dog, next person in line?

Then you cant add right...

Clan mechs and IS mechs with similar tonnages, builds, engines, etc cost about the same money.


Math is hard.

AssaultPig, on 27 January 2016 - 10:16 AM, said:

it is kinda silly how expensive clan weapons are compared to IS; that's something that imo ought to be changed (1.2mil for one ballistic, lol)

Please see above statement...

Khobai, on 26 January 2016 - 09:25 PM, said:

IS mechs should cost more than Clan mechs because of quirks.

You're an idiot....


Get better at trolling.

[Lyoto Machida]

CygnusX7, on 27 January 2016 - 10:08 AM, said:

New player experience?
What about cadet bonuses and training bonuses.

I think that contributes plenty to the new player experience.

Besides it's the same for everyone and has been for a loong time. Should the game change just for you and your 5 friends?

Yes, it should because those 5 friends of his could contribute thousands to this game (maybe even 10s of thousands). They're not broke like the 5 people you brought into this game.

I haven't even had an opportunity to recommend this game to 5 friends because most people I know who game these days run consoles.

[Darlith]

Lyoto Machida, on 27 January 2016 - 02:03 PM, said:

Yes, it should because those 5 friends of his could contribute thousands to this game (maybe even 10s of thousands). They're not broke like the 5 people you brought into this game.

I haven't even had an opportunity to recommend this game to 5 friends because most people I know who game these days run consoles.

If his 5 friends could contribute thousands to this game then they could buy the mechs instead of complaining about the c-bill price.

[Lyoto Machida]

Darlith, on 27 January 2016 - 02:21 PM, said:

If his 5 friends could contribute thousands to this game then they could buy the mechs instead of complaining about the c-bill price.

But how would they have the motivation to spend thousands on this game if they can't get over the initial Clan mech c-bill prices???



It's the classic chicken and egg conundrum...

[Rizzelbizzeg]

It's nice that I.S. can swap engines around when eliting out a chassis. This can be a major cost savings while leveling.

It would be really cool if we could buy "bare" clan chassis with no pods on them. Then you can eliminate having to get redundant or excessive pods, you just swap pods around to elite the chassis like how IS swaps engines.

[Mahpsy]

Ultimatum X, on 26 January 2016 - 08:37 PM, said:

Liar.

I made a broad statement. it's rude to assume less you make your self look like a ****..

Revis Volek, on 27 January 2016 - 12:26 PM, said:

Then you cant add right...

Clan mechs and IS mechs with similar tonnages, builds, engines, etc cost about the same money.


Math is hard.




Please see above statement...





You're an idiot....


Get better at trolling.

Based on what? For all you know i can be running all small lasers. lmao

[spectrefang]

While some IS mechs cost the same as equal weight/equipped clan mechs, other aren't even close. Take the 10mil Nova. No endo or ferro. For nearly the same amount you can get a stock Atlas, or two Grasshoppers, or 3 Hunchbacks. For a NOVA. Don't get me wrong I love my NVA-Prime, but the cost on it is just ridiculous.

[Lykaon]

KahnWongFuChung, on 27 January 2016 - 08:11 AM, said:

Balance?

Your funny PGI should have stuck to BattleTech Lore if they wanted to represent it in there game name.In lore Clan mechs where face wreckers like when PGI first introduced the Timberwolf and it wrecked face.

In lore it took 3-5 IS mechs to bring down a Clan heavy or assault mech and pilot.Now a lowly spider or some crappy IS light can solo and kill any Clan mechs its just stupid thinking on PGI's part.

All clan mechs need to go back to being as tough as it gets in MWO let the IS cry like baby's they did in lore until they out massed produced the clan in mechs (5 to 1) then they turned the tide of war and drove the clans back.

America won WW2 buy out producing they enemy's just like the InnerSpere did to the clans but the German planes tanks etc. wrecked face until they were outnumbered in WW2.

So PGI make the clan mechs tough again just like the timberwolf was when released and I will think about buying something from you again.

I think PGI may be "close" to getting the balance right I just hope they see it.

All the quirking may have uncovered solutions dispite creating problems. As I see the use of quirks can balance the two factions.

For example. Inner sphere mechs should get structure quirks as well as some chassis with critical hit resistance. Inner sphere weapons could get a hitpoint boost. Most of the weapon quirking gets removed with only a few examples of weapon quirking to uplift some of the mechs in dire need of boosting or to heavily encourage the mech's traditional role.

Weapon quirking should be less specific and more general so we don't get pigeonholed into cookie cutter mechs. So a quirk like 5% energy heat reduction is preferable to 5% medium laser heat reduction except when the mech in question has a native build that has a heavy reliance on medium lasers like the Hunchback 4P.In a case like that I would't be opposed to generic energy weapon quirks with some medium laser specific quirks in order to validate the stock build.

So in general the Inner Sphere mechs would possess significant durability intergral to the mech's chassis allowing the I.S. mechs to absorb a great deal of damage. While the I.S. weapons in compareson to the clan counterparts are heavyer and shorter ranged. The Inner Sphere mechs will in general be slower than their clan counterparts due to the extra weight of equipment and higher use of crit slots as well as the Inner Sphere XL engine being a serious trade off vastly reducing your mech's durability for some speed or extra firepower.

While the clan mechs balance the I.S. durability with range,firepower and speed.

To do this much of the negative quirks on clan tech needs to go. Also the longer burn durations on the laser weapons should be replaced with slight increases to weapon cooldown. The clan mechs in general should use speed and mobility to get in fire a volley and slip away to repeat another strike after the cooldowns recycle. If you leave the energy weapons with longer burn durations it will actually be counter to the advantages of mobility. If a clan mech needs to stay on target longer it will need to be exposed longer. This is not a good balance when the opposition is designed to take a beating and your (clan) mech is not.

The general dynamic with sort of balance is the Clans have higher damage volleys (lighter weapons and/or higher base damage values) slightly longer cooldowns on energy weapons and/or higher heat. coupled with generally longer weapon ranges. The average clan mech is not quirked for durability it is instead built for mobility and/or raw firepower.

The Inner Sphere mechs are built for durability to offset the higher damage and longer engagment ranges of clan mechs.The idea is the I.S. mechs can take enough of a beating that by the time they reach their engagment ranges they are intact enough to still fight on basicaly even footing.

This does mean that if either faction can leverage their advantages they will hold the advantage. A clan team that can maintain the range advantage and hold good terrain will be in an advantagious possition.

While an I.S. team iof it can make effective use of cover during the approach and have most of their mechs undamaged by the time they reach the I.S. engagment ranges they will have the durability needed to sustain a slugging match.

[Darlith]

spectrefang, on 27 January 2016 - 04:14 PM, said:

While some IS mechs cost the same as equal weight/equipped clan mechs, other aren't even close. Take the 10mil Nova. No endo or ferro. For nearly the same amount you can get a stock Atlas, or two Grasshoppers, or 3 Hunchbacks. For a NOVA. Don't get me wrong I love my NVA-Prime, but the cost on it is just ridiculous.

If I take an enforcer and throw a 250xl in it and get double heatsinks, the cost is similar to that nova.

[Tokimonatakanimekat]

KahnWongFuChung, on 27 January 2016 - 08:11 AM, said:

In lore it took 3-5 IS mechs to bring down a Clan heavy or assault mech and pilot.Now a lowly spider or some crappy IS light can solo and kill any Clan mechs its just stupid thinking on PGI's part.

You forget that those mechs were mostly old rusty lights and mediums with inferior loadouts, not some fancy heavies or assaults in wubstar fit or unlimited dakka works.

Quote

All clan mechs need to go back to being as tough as it gets in MWO let the IS cry like baby's they did in lore until they out massed produced the clan in mechs (5 to 1) then they turned the tide of war and drove the clans back.

Clans played a major part in screwing up their own initial success by being complete autists in their own shiny world of rainbows and honorabru rituals. Their internal disorder and puny logistic preparations probably did as much damage as IS counterattacks.

Quote

America won WW2

Ayyyy lmao. WW2 was won by a whole coalition of allied forces.

Quote

America won WW2 buy out producing they enemy's just like the InnerSpere did to the clans but the German planes tanks etc. wrecked face until they were outnumbered in WW2.

America outproduced Japan, not Germany (which was in fact outproduced and overpowered by mobilization potential of USSR after it recovered from initial {Godwin's Law} strike and reestablished production lines, just check 'em numbers of T-34's produced). Also, all major powers in WW2 had nearly same level of technological advancement, german planes and tanks were not "clan tech" to their counterparts. Actually in 1941, spec-wise soviet fighters were close to german (but pilots were waaaay less experienced) and german tanks were totally outmatched by early T-34 models and KV-1 (but they still were outnumbered in initial blitzkrieg).

[spectrefang]

Darlith, on 27 January 2016 - 04:53 PM, said:

If I take an enforcer and throw a 250xl in it and get double heatsinks, the cost is similar to that nova.

An ENF-4P is 4mil stock. It comes with Ferro/Endo and DHS, a higher stock payload capacity, and a STD engine with none of the XL drawback. Putting the XL in brings you up from 20.5tons payload to 26.5 payload.

Nova only has a 16ton payload. and you can't add endo or ferro, or change the engine.

[Darlith]

spectrefang, on 27 January 2016 - 06:07 PM, said:

An ENF-4P is 4mil stock. It comes with Ferro/Endo and DHS, a higher stock payload capacity, and a STD engine with none of the XL drawback. Putting the XL in brings you up from 20.5tons payload to 26.5 payload.

Nova only has a 16ton payload. and you can't add endo or ferro, or change the engine.

And an Enforcer 4R is 3.8mil stock and comes with none of that, and with stock engine, maxed armor and enough heatsinks to bring it up to the nova's locked heatsink number has half a ton less free space than the nova prime also while at max armor but goes 15kph slower than the nova. Stick a 250xl in to compare them closer and put in double heatsinks the cost goes up to around 9.5mil and with the same number of heatsinks has a half-ton more space. Now of course you could then buy endo or ferro for more cost and get a good amount more weight to play with, but heavier weapons, and thats when you start getting into balance things that have nothing to do with cost. The idea is that a comparably tonned and outfitted IS mech is of similar cost to a Clan mech.

[Deathlike]

OP... I'm not even sure what I'd like to say about this.

The most expensive cost of the mech is the XL ENGINE.

Look at the Stormcrow for a moment.

A 330XL engine costs [smurfy copypasta] 5,390,000 C-bills [/smurfy].

That is approximately HALF (50%) the cost of the mech.

Take an IS 55-tonner, and try to add that XL 330 into the mech. It will make the price balloon really quickly.


The upfront price is 90+% of the time due to the engine. That is why none in the right minds would buy a Gargles (Gargoyle) unless they had nothing better to do (XL400 is expensive).


Simple price planning for most IS mechs is usually something like 50% to 100% over the base price (it's insanely lopsided if you're trying to outfit a Light mech that has a stock XL engine like the Raven-3L), due to upgrades, and primarily this is pretty close to the cost of a Clan Mech. In the case of the Clan Mech, you expect to spend something like an additional 2 to 3 million extra C-bills on it for omnipod changes (assuming it is not a IIC/Clan Battlemech).


The best way to look at pricing is actually from the IIC mechs vs their originals. Take your pricing with the same engines on mechs they are based on and see how the pricing goes. It becomes very apparent that there is a price parity with the IIC mechs (Jenner is no exception) and if that really isn't enough to satisfy you... then I don't know what else to tell you outside of not so nice things.

Edited by Deathlike, 27 January 2016 - 07:15 PM.

[Ultimax]

Ragingdemon, on 27 January 2016 - 02:59 PM, said:

I made a broad statement. it's rude to assume less you make your self look like a ****..

You're statement was wrong, you were told you were wrong, you remained obstinate and then made a comment that was false.


The only one looking ridiculous is you.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Feels like the OP was after more. I THINK I get it.

He mentions the accessibility of these mechs to NEW players, fresh out of cadet status and itching to spend that sweet bonus cash.

Now, we can SAY all we like, that the new player should be ready to INVEST in that first mech. That the new mech will need to add DHS, ENDO, an XL engine, maybe FERRO, and so on, but the new player doesn't see that. He or she sees a price tag and a fierce battlebot. I can have fierce battlebot A for X, or fierce battlebot B for X*2. I'll buy A. And our friendly neighborhood newb is off to the races in a stock COM-1D, about to get thrashed HARD by even a laser turret. THEN the friendly newb goes to the NPH forum and asks for help, and THEN someone suggests some builds, and THEN the newb puts together another X C-Bills, and only NOW has he/she spent the same amount on that fancy Commando (SOUNDS like it should kick ***, right?) as would have been spent to buy the other mech.

And you simply can't MAKE people listen to this stuff. I f***ed this up, too, when I first started, back in late 2012. My first mech was a Commando, when there were only 3 lights to choose from (COM, RVN, JR7), and MOTHER OF GOD did it suck! To this day, I don't think I've ever scored a single kill in that chassis. I poured buckets of CBills into that P.O.S., and only LATER did I discover Smurfy.

The OP's point kinda hinges on the understanding that newbs are new. Hence the name. They don't know what they don't know. And one of the many things that most of them don't know, is that the Clan omnimechs that are SOOOO much more expensive, already have all that gear that they're going to have to put on those bargain-basement IS counterparts, and that the cost THEREFORE will eventually be the same for a reasonable mech, regardless of which one you buy.

NEWBS won't get that until they learn it the hard way. And honestly, having a Clan omnimech FIRST would probably spoil the experience and make owning any IS battlemech kinda difficult.

So I WANT the new players to start on IS mechs first. So they understand having to buy and swap things, that it costs money to equip/de-equip/re-equip Artemis and Ferro and Endo and DHS, and all that. And THEN they can go easy-mode and buy an omnimech that already has all those decisions made for them, and all they have to do is swap omnipods and weapons.

And in that way, the system is FINE the way it is.

Now, everyone kiss and make up.

[Rogue Jedi]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 January 2016 - 06:05 PM, said:

Small laser is fine at 135 meters. Small laser is not fine with a 2.25 second cool-down. It's not even fine with a 2 second cool-down. Needs something much closer to 1 second to be okay.

so you think your 0.5 ton Small Laser should have 3DPS, the same as the 14 ton + ammo AC20.

So make the Small Laser the most overpowered weapon in the game, and give the Firestarter the capability of doing enough damage to kill a fresh Atlas in 3 seconds.

are you sure you think that is a good idea?

something tells me you did not think that through.

[IraqiWalker]

Ragingdemon, on 27 January 2016 - 02:59 PM, said:

Based on what? For all you know i can be running all small lasers. lmao

IF YOU ARE RUNNING THE SAME LOADOUT, THE PRICE IS ALMOST THE SAME.

I believe this was reiterated about 3.6 gazillion times.

It doesn't matter if you're running SLs, or an 11 TAG DWF. If you run the same loadout in a comparable IS battlemech, you will get around the same price. Though in all honesty, you get less return on the IS side, because our XL engines die to ST loss, and none of our lasers have similar ranges, or damage brackets, and our ballistics are heavier, bulkier, and lack ultra versions, save for the UAC 5.

It's why IS mechs get more quirks generally, to help them out.


Now there's something else you seem to not be aware of: Asymmetrical Balance. Balance doesn't mean "the same", those are very different things.

Tokimonatakanimekat, on 27 January 2016 - 05:53 PM, said:

You forget that those mechs were mostly old rusty lights and mediums with inferior loadouts, not some fancy heavies or assaults in wubstar fit or unlimited dakka works.

Possibly the best comment made in the forums over the past 6 months.

[Y E O N N E]

Rogue Jedi, on 29 January 2016 - 01:27 AM, said:

so you think your 0.5 ton Small Laser should have 3DPS, the same as the 14 ton + ammo AC20.

So make the Small Laser the most overpowered weapon in the game, and give the Firestarter the capability of doing enough damage to kill a fresh Atlas in 3 seconds.

are you sure you think that is a good idea?

something tells me you did not think that through.

1. You can already do that with SPL or C-SPL
2. I'd favor increasing duration to 1 sec, so that + cool-down would make it take at least 5 seconds to spit out three volleys
2. Heat is a beautiful thing

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 29 January 2016 - 10:06 AM.