83 replies to this topic

[Monkey Lover]

LegendaryArticuno, on 01 February 2016 - 07:14 AM, said:

Why do people hate JJ on Madcats... it's incredibly useful.

They dont hate them they just liked when they used to be able to only put 1 on it. With one you can still do you dance animation and spread dmg.

[Gas Guzzler]

Gyrok, on 01 February 2016 - 09:16 AM, said:

My god...this is the most truth in this entire freaking thread...this is basically what 90% of the clan nerfs were...hysteria over BS that was all in people's mind. Like the EBJ that was "too low stance" before anyone even saw the damn thing in game...

Think about that..No one ever got to play the EBJ in the original intended stance because people wanted to ***** about it being OP before anyone even got to play it yet.

Well, people love to complain about power creep, and badly scaled mechs. Primary complaint as I remember was "OMG its like the size of a Nova it needs to be taller"

[Gyrok]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 February 2016 - 09:40 AM, said:

Well, people love to complain about power creep, and badly scaled mechs. Primary complaint as I remember was "OMG its like the size of a Nova it needs to be taller"

They did not change the scaling, all they did was change the stance. It sits up taller now than it did before...but model size is the exact same.

[C I L L I P U D D I]

OH LAWD!!! The TBR's will be quirk neutral, everyone ruuuuuuuuuuuuuun! Clan lasers are still nerfed and extremely hot, we can't let PGI give back 4-8% duration and heat gen on 2 chassis that are still easy to kill with IS LPL's.

Clans are no longer these gods of the battlefield since C-lasers got the nerf bat. What made them over the top was the combination of hard points and weapons. You take one of those out of the equation and they just become good mechs.

I really don't think people realize how strong IS actually is at the moment. Even once they get the 10% Energy Range nerf, Duration and Heat Gen on some of the top tier chassis are both still very broken. On top of the fact, you can boat more lasers before ghost heat.

Example: I can put 3-4 IS LPL on most of my Heavies and be comfortable alphaing 2-3 times before having to cool off. That's 3-4 Large Pulse on a Heavy. Now I get in my HBR or TBR and I can, at max boat 2 C-LPL's and if I alpha, just those, I'm worried about over heating.

Example cont'd: My MAD-5D has max engine, XL 360, with only 3 LPL's and has a 1.58 Heat Efficiency. I can legitimately alpha the entire game and never worry about heat. If I'm honest with myself, I could put a 4th LPL on the chassis and still alpha most of the game. Now, I put this same build on a HBR/TBR, I get a 1.28 Heat on the TBR, 1.15 on HBR and I'm also in Ghost Heat, with anything over 2 LPL's. I put 4 on, 1.11(TBR) .99(HBR) and I will insta shutdown on alpha.

IS Energy Range, Duration, Heat Gen and Weapon specific Quirks can all be toned down some and IS will still be stronger due to how hot C-Lasers are overall. You just can't boat as many lasers on Clan as you can on IS and be as effective.

[Sandpit]

El Bandito, on 31 January 2016 - 07:57 PM, said:

Do you even read, bro? Cause if you had just an inkling of understanding, you would have realized that I am not complaining about the Timberwolf, but the current state of the game PGI had created, where unnerfed Timbie-A is now considered normal.

So next time, stop you kneejerk douchebaggery and THINK before you type.

It's the power creep. There's no way to avoid a power creep with the way PGI has chosen to develop the game.

[Mcgral18]

Sandpit, on 01 February 2016 - 10:25 AM, said:

It's the power creep. There's no way to avoid a power creep with the way PGI has chosen to develop the game.

Russ' HoverJet™ comment made me sad.
Paraphrase:
No, we aren't going to fix them, we're going to quirk them.


So few attribute edits, over such a long period of time.
MASC, Clam extended laser nerf, and quirks themselves seem to be the only attribute changes recently.

[JC Daxion]

El Bandito, on 31 January 2016 - 07:25 PM, said:

It used to be that Timberwolf-A was this unimaginably strong beast that had to be nerfed before it reached live servers, and then nerfed again. Now it seems to PGI that, Timbie-A is completely fine to stay in unnerfed form. Isn't it a clear indication that the power bar had shifted even higher? I personally do not like even shorter TTK in this game and wishes to tone down the already strong mechs/quirks (IS and Clans) so there won't have too much power difference between them and the underdog.

all they really need to do, is change the ghost heat scale to include all weapons. Alpha's should always have ghost heat.. firing weapons in smaller amounts should not. I think this one change would make for a much better game.. to me, the idea of being able to have multiply alpha's is the big issue and would actually be more true to the older Mech games..

Increasing recharges is another thing that could be done.. Long range, long recharge, Right not, the game is to much of the ranged game.. and charging a LR mech is hard, because you can just alpha and hide, and really don't have a down side, outside of being snuck up on

[Sandpit]

Mcgral18, on 01 February 2016 - 11:09 AM, said:

Russ' HoverJet™ comment made me sad.
Paraphrase:
No, we aren't going to fix them, we're going to quirk them.


So few attribute edits, over such a long period of time.
MASC, Clam extended laser nerf, and quirks themselves seem to be the only attribute changes recently.

It's been pretty apparent for more than a year now that PGI isn't going to change their balance system. Quirks are their balancing tool. That's not going to change. Thus, we're never going to get better balance than they system we currently have.

With that being said, the overall game balance is decent to me currently. That changes and shifts so much because of the underlying system used. Every single time a new mech, weapon, system, etc. is introduced, it throws everything else out of balance because weapons aren't balanced per weapon system, they're balanced according to boating.

That's why you have so many systems in the game that are considered "useless". They are extremely ineffective because they've been balanced according to min/max boating builds more than anything else.

The weapons aren't what actually determine balance. Quirks and hardpoints are. Weapons are a secondary consideration in mech building for these players. The weapon system is a lot less relevant than hardpoint count and quirks for the individual chassis.

Thus you wind up with a constant power creep. It's not as "noticeable" right now, because honestly we haven't have anything actually new introduced in the last 2 years.

When new tech becomes introduced it will start the entire process all over again, with "old" tech being "balanced" so that it's just as "good" as the new tech.

An AC2 should do x damage, x range, and x RoF
period
not x damage compared to this weapon

That's how you get diversity. It's not that PGI can't or doesn't have the "skills" to program it, it's a philosophy that PGI has adhered to that is the issue. Until PGI makes a few fundamental changes to their views and philosophies nothing's going to change much.

[Wildstreak]

Sorry, I don't see powercreep in this and I own 3 Timbers now just got in the past month. All 3 use the same build, just one does it different. Not finding a decent selection of builds anywhere for variety and not interested in copying a build off another Mech (I already did that with 1 Ebon and 1 Exe without realizing it at first), I found myself using the Champion build but differently.

On my C & D, instead of using the C left arm that comes with penalties (half those of the A Left Torso), I used A or D arms and split the armor reduction from the C Right Arm to both arms. The LPLs went in the arms for greater range and the ERMLs in the 3 Torsos to all fire at the same reticule.

The A, I decided to try the Left Torso putting the 2 LPLs there with a ERML, Right and Center Torsos got the other 2 ERMLs. Again half the armor reduction went to each arm.

After running these for a month, I can say I do not notice any real cooldown and duration penalties despite the A Left Torso having twice that of the C Left and Prime both Arms. I do not notice any speed penalties either. The only specific things I see from the A Left Torso compared to the other 2 are:
able to ridge peek with the Left Torso weapons
able to shield and lose arms without losing weapons
smart opponents will target that A Left Torso and ***** me, its happened.

First and Second help the A live longer but if you come across the third, you get hurt badly.

Doesn't seem like power creep.

[Imperius]

Powercreep boogiemen

[1453 R]

I love how these threads always start with “Now, don’t get me wrong – I’m in favor of nerfing both Clan top dogs and toning down IS quirks”…and then the original poster and his adherents talk exclusively about whatever big bad nasty Clan ‘Mech has their jimmies a’rustlin’ today, without ever saying a word about things like Blackjacks having more QUIRK structure than they have ACTUAL structure, or the multitudes of 50% range/refire/velocity quirks the Sphere has, or…yeah. They just quote themselves saying “…in favor of…toning down IS quirks” without ever actually discussing whether Sphere SuperMegaUltraQuirks are, perhaps, just as bad for the game as allowing the Timber Wolf to do what the Cauldron-Born has been doing since its release, with both energy and ballistics, without any NegaQuirks at all on a more compact chassis with better hill-climb.

Tell me, Bandito – are we pining for the 3025 days where the Free Worlds League was actually semi-relevant, or just frustrated that the TBR-A pods might actually be usable for the first time since their introduction?

[Sandpit]

1453 R, on 02 February 2016 - 11:39 AM, said:

Tell me, Bandito – are we pining for the 3025 days where the Free Worlds League was actually semi-relevant, or just frustrated that the TBR-A pods might actually be usable for the first time since their introduction?

Tell me 1453 - are we trying to make this into a personal and ad hominen attack on someone? Please explain to me what faction affiliation has to do with the discussion?

[1453 R]

Sandpit, on 02 February 2016 - 12:02 PM, said:

Tell me 1453 - are we trying to make this into a personal and ad hominen attack on someone? Please explain to me what faction affiliation has to do with the discussion?

...All right. Fair. I'm simply frustrated by the innumerable threads in this cesspool that start with "now I'm in favor of both nerfing Clan god-tiers and toning down IS quirks...", then proceed to do absolutely nothing whatsoever to suggest IS quirk reductions whilst mandating that things like the TBR-A pods should be NegaQuirked into being effectively unusable.

Again, the Cauldron-Born has had over-cockpit energy and ballistic hardpoints both, since its introduction, without a single red quirk in sight, and these days people don't even care about the CBN anymore.. Why should the TBR-A pods and the SCR-B pods being fixed cause a riot when it's apparently perfectly okay for the Sphere to have structure quirks that double their effective structure, or 50% everything quirks? Hell, nobody even uses the SCR-B six-beam arm, but by gum they'll BURN THE PLACE DOWN before they let it lose its negaquirks!

So yeah. Call me a jaded a**hole, I suppose. I'm just a little sick of Clan machines getting dumped on every. Single. Patch. Without any admission whatsoever that maybe the majority of the Clan side is nowhere near deserving of that treatment and that whatever magic pixie quirk-dust Sphere techs pack their 'Mechs with is worth a whole lot more than players are willing to admit it is.

[FupDup]

1453 R, on 02 February 2016 - 11:39 AM, said:

I love how these threads always start with “Now, don’t get me wrong – I’m in favor of nerfing both Clan top dogs and toning down IS quirks”…and then the original poster and his adherents talk exclusively about whatever big bad nasty Clan ‘Mech has their jimmies a’rustlin’ today, without ever saying a word about things like Blackjacks having more QUIRK structure than they have ACTUAL structure, or the multitudes of 50% range/refire/velocity quirks the Sphere has, or…yeah. They just quote themselves saying “…in favor of…toning down IS quirks” without ever actually discussing whether Sphere SuperMegaUltraQuirks are, perhaps, just as bad for the game as allowing the Timber Wolf to do what the Cauldron-Born has been doing since its release, with both energy and ballistics, without any NegaQuirks at all on a more compact chassis with better hill-climb.

Tell me, Bandito – are we pining for the 3025 days where the Free Worlds League was actually semi-relevant, or just frustrated that the TBR-A pods might actually be usable for the first time since their introduction?

To be fair, the Cauldron has much lower durability than the Mad Cat and it also can't use HoverJets.

[Sandpit]

1453 R, on 02 February 2016 - 12:26 PM, said:

...All right. Fair. I'm simply frustrated by the innumerable threads in this cesspool that start with "now I'm in favor of both nerfing Clan god-tiers and toning down IS quirks...", then proceed to do absolutely nothing whatsoever to suggest IS quirk reductions whilst mandating that things like the TBR-A pods should be NegaQuirked into being effectively unusable.

Again, the Cauldron-Born has had over-cockpit energy and ballistic hardpoints both, since its introduction, without a single red quirk in sight, and these days people don't even care about the CBN anymore.. Why should the TBR-A pods and the SCR-B pods being fixed cause a riot when it's apparently perfectly okay for the Sphere to have structure quirks that double their effective structure, or 50% everything quirks? Hell, nobody even uses the SCR-B six-beam arm, but by gum they'll BURN THE PLACE DOWN before they let it lose its negaquirks!

So yeah. Call me a jaded a**hole, I suppose. I'm just a little sick of Clan machines getting dumped on every. Single. Patch. Without any admission whatsoever that maybe the majority of the Clan side is nowhere near deserving of that treatment and that whatever magic pixie quirk-dust Sphere techs pack their 'Mechs with is worth a whole lot more than players are willing to admit it is.

Now you know how some of us who play in small groups and units feel honestly lol

Every single time there's a player complaining about "fair games", it always resorts to "groups touched me and I'm mad" and PGI jumps on the "well then we must do something to limit the participation of groups and units and segregate them"

[1453 R]

FupDup, on 02 February 2016 - 12:27 PM, said:

To be fair, the Cauldron has much lower durability than the Mad Cat and it also can't use HoverJets.

My Cauldron-Born, "Lil Susan", is probably my favorite 'Mech, and also one of the most dangerous machines I own (even if I never get to run her because the Heavy queue never drops below 40%...). Yes yes, I know, T4, I have no idea what I'm talking about...except that Li'l Susan nets me 600+ damage and multiple kills, solo and otherwise, virtually every time I get to run her out. This is my 'Carry Harder' machine, even more than any of my Timber Wolves.

The CBN has, honestly, equivalent or greater firepower potential to the Timber Wolf in a smaller, lighter package, its Medium climb profile offsets a lot of the disadvantage of no jets, every one of its guns is high enough to peek with, and it has more module slots than the TBR. Yeah, the TBR has 75-tonner armor/structure and better hitboxes. Hasn't stopped me from tearing them to pieces fairly regularly with Li'l Susan.

The Cauldron-Born is one of those 'Mechs the game seems to've forgotten about, which is weird because I consider them one of the most dangerous chassis you can encounter. I am honestly more leery of Cauldron-Borns than I am Timber Wolves; you see far fewer of them but they tend to be better built, and a well-built Cauldron-Born is really not a nice thing to fight.

So yeah. It's a little difficult for me to see the issue with giving the TBR its A pods without negaquirking it into oblivion. Let it skyhook ERLL all it wants. Doesn't matter for spit - the Hellbringer's still going to beat it as an ERLL sniper because ECM, the Cauldron-Born beats it as an everything-else sniper, and it was already the best Clan heavyweight brawler in the game by a pretty huge margin. I fail to see what fixing the TBR-A is going to change.

[Snowhawk]

Unnerf the Timby...?

[Wildstreak]

1453 R, on 02 February 2016 - 12:59 PM, said:

My Cauldron-Born, "Lil Susan", is probably my favorite 'Mech, and also one of the most dangerous machines I own (even if I never get to run her because the Heavy queue never drops below 40%...).

I use the same except I drop 2 of your lasers for 2 more DHS and do not put all the ammo in the side torsos, you get hit there, it hurts. Actually better to only have 1 ton ammo per side torso and the rest in arms. You can run 3 of those and a Cheetah or some Medium or a 4th now in CW and do well, done it.

[KahnWongFuChung]

BS I want my TimberWolf-S back the way it was before all the nerfs. It still has nerfs that PGI has not taken off yet but unless they fix the hit-boxes and armor back to the way they were pre-nerf the mech will still be a pile of shhitttt its as bad as a Catapult you hit it once on the nose with a high alpha and its dead.

I want my ultra face smashing brawler back before I spend another MC on MWO.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

KahnWongFuChung, on 02 February 2016 - 08:12 PM, said:

BS I want my TimberWolf-S back the way it was before all the nerfs. It still has nerfs that PGI has not taken off yet but unless they fix the hit-boxes and armor back to the way they were pre-nerf the mech will still be a pile of shhitttt its as bad as a Catapult you hit it once on the nose with a high alpha and its dead.

I want my ultra face smashing brawler back before I spend another MC on MWO.

I don't recall PGI ever touching the Timber's hitboxes, so I don't know what you're on about.