1094 replies to this topic

[Metus regem]

Mead, on 08 February 2016 - 01:30 PM, said:

I'm poking fun at the delivery, not the content. Did you get hysterical or hyperbolic about it? No? Then I'm not smirking at your posts. Relax.

Rather I was agreeing with you, a few pages back, one of the posters basicly said, how is that realistic?!? So I cited what the chin mounted chain gun on my Apache would do, when shooting it... He the process to say that hardly makes me qualified to offer comment on how realistic a CoF mechanic would be...

1453 R, on 08 February 2016 - 01:11 PM, said:

A'ight.

So explain to me, Bishop, how my JIIC(O), with six SRM-4s and enough ammo to keep them fed, doesn't rule the roost with these changes. I'm a small, maneuverable light 'Mech - people have trouble hitting me when they get pinpoint aim. Now, the proposed CoF changes require players to stand still, bottom out their heat bar, and sacrifice significant tonnage to sniper equipment to have any remote chance of hitting a moving, evading light beyond 400m.

So, I basically get free run of the battlefield outside 400m, provided I don't make myself into Lurmbait.

The effective range of my SRMs is, for the purpose of clean arguments, about 300m. I don't get a lot of tightly clustered hits there, of course, but SRM-4s can land damage out to ~300m with range module. Since I'm using SRMs I don't give a whack for CoF-reduction modules which are now otherwise mandatory for all direct-fire 'Mechs and can freely equip cSRM-4 range and refire.

Enemies have roughly a hundred meters in which they could hope to accurately hit me before I can hit them. My particular JIIC(O) is unusually slow (255cXL), so only hits ~126kph. Do some basic conversion math, that Jenner hits 'bout 35 meters a second footspeed if my brain is working today. So...just about three seconds of engagement time for my enemies, where they can reliably hit me before I can hit them (provided the game reports speed accurately. personally, I'm pretty sure I actually cover 100 meters a lot quicker than three seconds, but still. Math for the Math God).

Once inside that 300m range, of course, I have a quick-cycling 48-point salvo that does not give a rat for your CoF nonsense. My JIIC(O) has more brawling power than a number of heavy 'Mechs and a handful of assault designs. If your direct-fire platform suffers the same degree of spread/inaccuracy as my SRM launchers...well. We all know exactly who's going to win that engagement unless I manage to blow it beyond comprehension.

This is, of course, assuming the enemy is aware of my attack and is specifically targeting me as I close in. They have three seconds in which to try and land a hit and discourage my run, which translates to precisely one shot given most MWO weapons' cycle times. They don't get time for a follow-up before I'm ramming missiles up their robo-rectums.

Do you feel like you can disable an evading JIIC(O), reliably, with one singular shot, in whatever you pilot, Bishop?

How many Bulltrue medals did you get, back in the Halo days?

Anyways. Even exempting concerns over the iron-fisted dominance of the SRM Shotgun Meta, should a CoF thing go through...it's just not good game design. Not in a game where every single individual shell in a weapon, or bolt fired from an energy gun, has to count. One single miss in a close-fought duel can decide the fate of an entire match in MWO and we all know it.

Is it really fair for that one shot to be decided by RNGsus, and not the player making the shot?

Actually I find the spread on SRM's with out Artemis about right, based off of what I'd see when using rocket pods on the inner mounts when we had them on the Apache.... Was fun to see them pepper the area.

[adamts01]

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 08 February 2016 - 01:30 PM, said:

A CoF is random. It's simply a limiter along the x and y axes for a field of data points, and are them programmatically selected by a coded RNG function.

What's not random is your ability to fire shots with or without COF. If you need the shot to be perfect, slow down, if your target is close, then fire away because the spread won't matter.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 February 2016 - 01:33 PM, said:

The Oxide, or the IIC? Because the actual Oxide is currently one of the best lights in the game.

One of the best lights at brawling bigger targets. Very situational. Given equal skill, lasers will be able to put all rounds on your leg, while some of your missiles would miss. Plus, you have to get close, depending on the situation, you might not get your time to shine. It's give and take, and lasers fill the most roles.

[Mead]

Metus regem, on 08 February 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

Rather I was agreeing with you, a few pages back, one of the posters basicly said, how is that realistic?!? So I cited what the chin mounted chain gun on my Apache would do, when shooting it... He the process to say that hardly makes me qualified to offer comment on how realistic a CoF mechanic would be...

Whoops. Maybe I should relax too, then

[1453 R]

adamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 01:30 PM, said:

Your Oxide is, and will continue to be, a very situational mech.

Not the Oxide, which is bad, has always been bad, and will continue to be bad without SuperMegaUltraQuirks to hold it up (and we all know the odds on SMUQuirks hanging around for more than a few months for any given variant). The Jenner-IIC, primary variant. Six hardpoints, highest (potential) overland light 'Mech speed in the game, exceptional jump capability. I sacrificed raw footspeed on mine, but I still outpace everything but other lights, I have more brawling-range murderpower than a good percentage of heavies, and under the proposed CoF systems Tex and everyone else is pushing for, you cannot possibly stop me before I get to what amounts to just outside the maximum effective range of my weapons. You can throw all the long-range fire in Creation at my Jenner; outside lucky-shot random deviation one-offs, none of it will hit me if I'm exercising any amount of evasion or making any use of cover or defilade.

That is the entire point of your system, after all - to eliminate the ability to reliably hit targets at medium to long distances with more than one weapon at once, i.e. "Kill AlphaWarrior Online".

Exactly how 'situational' is a close-range powerhouse 'Mech that's largely immune to long-range fire? What are you gonna do, shoot me? With a CoF system implemented and no ability to tighten up your shot placement...LULZ. I dare you to try. You'll only die hot.

Or, more accurately, you'll die hot a few times, then switch to a massed-SRM 'Mech of your own before heading to the forums and loudly cursing the Evil Cheating Baby-Eating Massed SRM Meta. Well, perhaps not Adam specifically, but the 'You' that is the general MWO populace will do exactly that.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

adamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 01:38 PM, said:

One of the best lights at brawling bigger targets. Very situational. Given equal skill, lasers will be able to put all rounds on your leg, while some of your missiles would miss. Plus, you have to get close, depending on the situation, you might not get your time to shine. It's give and take, and lasers fill the most roles.

You underestimate the Oxide's firepower and boosted structure quirks, even against other lights the Oxide is one of the best lights, only rivaled by the Cheetah (which mounts 165m range SPLs without modules accounted for).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 08 February 2016 - 01:43 PM.

[Metus regem]

Mead, on 08 February 2016 - 01:39 PM, said:

Whoops. Maybe I should relax too, then

No problem takes more than that to get under my skin. Just some of the responses I see here seem to boil down to, 'I don't want to lose my ability to hit a pixile at 800m, upside down in a blizzard while running at 150km/h'...

[TexAce]

1453 R, on 08 February 2016 - 01:39 PM, said:

Not the Oxide, which is bad, has always been bad, and will continue to be bad without SuperMegaUltraQuirks to hold it up (and we all know the odds on SMUQuirks hanging around for more than a few months for any given variant). The Jenner-IIC, primary variant. Six hardpoints, highest (potential) overland light 'Mech speed in the game, exceptional jump capability. I sacrificed raw footspeed on mine, but I still outpace everything but other lights, I have more brawling-range murderpower than a good percentage of heavies, and under the proposed CoF systems Tex and everyone else is pushing for, you cannot possibly stop me before I get to what amounts to just outside the maximum effective range of my weapons. You can throw all the long-range fire in Creation at my Jenner; outside lucky-shot random deviation one-offs, none of it will hit me if I'm exercising any amount of evasion or making any use of cover or defilade.

That is the entire point of your system, after all - to eliminate the ability to reliably hit targets at medium to long distances with more than one weapon at once, i.e. "Kill AlphaWarrior Online".

Exactly how 'situational' is a close-range powerhouse 'Mech that's largely immune to long-range fire? What are you gonna do, shoot me? With a CoF system implemented and no ability to tighten up your shot placement...LULZ. I dare you to try. You'll only die hot.

Or, more accurately, you'll die hot a few times, then switch to a massed-SRM 'Mech of your own before heading to the forums and loudly cursing the Evil Cheating Baby-Eating Massed SRM Meta. Well, perhaps not Adam specifically, but the 'You' that is the general MWO populace will do exactly that.

You are still just pushing your agenda with overly exaggerated scenarios without acknowledging that there still would be a lot of mechs possible to pinpoint your glasscannon leg from 800 meters like they do now. It would still be a glass canon, it would still die young. It would only perhaps have a slight bigger chance surviving a 80ppfld alpha when it rounds a corner and sees a whale standing there. Which isn't all too bad in my book.

The day SRMs become meta again, I'll *************. Hitreg alone can't let that happen ever.

Edited by TexAce, 08 February 2016 - 01:46 PM.

[adamts01]

1453 R, on 08 February 2016 - 01:39 PM, said:

The Jenner-IIC, primary variant. Six hardpoints, highest (potential) overland light 'Mech speed in the game, exceptional jump capability. I sacrificed raw footspeed on mine, but I still outpace everything but other lights, I have more brawling-range murderpower than a good percentage of heavies, and under the proposed CoF systems Tex and everyone else is pushing for, you cannot possibly stop me before I get to what amounts to just outside the maximum effective range of my weapons.

I can only assume you're talking about the 72 point alpha Clan Oxide. A functional light with a 72 point alpha is another discussion. We're talking about general game mechanics, not outlying problems.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 February 2016 - 01:41 PM, said:

You underestimate the Oxide's firepower and boosted structure quirks, even against other lights the Oxide is one of the best lights, only rivaled by the Cheetah (which mounts 165m range SPLs without modules accounted for).

The Firestarter is still chosen over the Cheetah and Jenner (clan or IS) in all competitions. I played nothing but Jenners and Ravens my first 1.5 years in this game, I absolutely understand Jenners. The Oxide is very, very good, but not broken, still has to get very close and will be beat by an equally skilled Firestarter A.

[1453 R]

TexAce, on 08 February 2016 - 01:44 PM, said:

You are still just pushing your agenda with overly exaggerated scenarios without acknowledging that there still would be a lot of mechs possible to pinpoint your glasscannon leg from 800 meters like they do now. It would still be a glass canon, it would still die young. It would only perhaps have a slight bigger chance surviving a 80ppfld alpha when it rounds a corner and sees a whale standing there. Which isn't all too bad in my book.

The day SRMs become meta again, I'll *************. Hitreg alone can't let that happen ever.

TexAce, on 08 February 2016 - 09:39 AM, said:

Your own work there, man. In two out of eight circumstances, you are able to semi-reliably land damage. One of those is a "Maybe somewhere on the 'Mech" shot. Everything else splashes shots around like a Magikarp fighting a Metapod. This is against a perfectly stationary light 'Mech out in the open.

How, exactly, are you going to break the legs off a fast-moving missile cruiser, again?

Regardless, the entire tangent is only related to the point, not the entire point. Beyond the fact that a randomized CoF system would destroy HSR beyond salvation, it would also involve a great deal of finicky, prone-to-breaking code to try and track everyone's randomized values the same across twenty-four machines in a server-authoritative match. Even if the code already exists, implementing it would create huge increases in server overhead and communicated variables, which would lead to FPS plummets and, again, the aforementioned shaky and inconsistent performance.

It's technically demanding and a huge resource hog. And before you tell me that *insert MAAAS of choice here* does it...I almost guarantee you that said MAAAS is going to be client-authoritative, or running peer-to-peer, or something else that's easier on the netcode but is also impossible to police for cheating.

All so a bunch of forumgoers can pretend they're rolling dice for hit locations just like back in tabletop days?

How 'bout y'all wait for HBS' 3025 game. That seems to be more your speed anyways, from all of this.

[Kuritaclan]

1453 R, on 08 February 2016 - 01:39 PM, said:

Not the Oxide, which is bad, has always been bad, and will continue to be bad without SuperMegaUltraQuirks to hold it up (and we all know the odds on SMUQuirks hanging around for more than a few months for any given variant). The Jenner-IIC, primary variant. Six hardpoints, highest (potential) overland light 'Mech speed in the game, exceptional jump capability. I sacrificed raw footspeed on mine, but I still outpace everything but other lights, I have more brawling-range murderpower than a good percentage of heavies, and under the proposed CoF systems Tex and everyone else is pushing for, you cannot possibly stop me before I get to what amounts to just outside the maximum effective range of my weapons. You can throw all the long-range fire in Creation at my Jenner; outside lucky-shot random deviation one-offs, none of it will hit me if I'm exercising any amount of evasion or making any use of cover or defilade.

That is the entire point of your system, after all - to eliminate the ability to reliably hit targets at medium to long distances with more than one weapon at once, i.e. "Kill AlphaWarrior Online".

Exactly how 'situational' is a close-range powerhouse 'Mech that's largely immune to long-range fire? What are you gonna do, shoot me? With a CoF system implemented and no ability to tighten up your shot placement...LULZ. I dare you to try. You'll only die hot.

Or, more accurately, you'll die hot a few times, then switch to a massed-SRM 'Mech of your own before heading to the forums and loudly cursing the Evil Cheating Baby-Eating Massed SRM Meta. Well, perhaps not Adam specifically, but the 'You' that is the general MWO populace will do exactly that.

QFT.

Anyway I'm against this cof **** since first time appearance. Not to say that there are more than one iteration of stupidity involved.

The thing what steps up the whole Aiming/Hitting thing would be in detail battle models. Where you still have the "pin point" accuracy but only kill mechs by actually destroying the critical internals. So a side torso will eat pinpoint damage, but the component underneath the armor is "only a laser" - upsi you didnt killed the XL engine but grilled the laser. You shot the same spot with your 30 pt alpha again. Well your problem that this laser was done in the first place but the engine -> the mech is still running instead of it is now.

Not including the problems of tracking the right vectors and the problems with Hit detection on server side into equation.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 08 February 2016 - 01:59 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

adamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 01:54 PM, said:

The Firestarter is still chosen over the Cheetah and Jenner (clan or IS) in all competitions. I played nothing but Jenners and Ravens my first 1.5 years in this game, I absolutely understand Jenners. The Oxide is very, very good, but not broken, still has to get very close and will be beat by an equally skilled Firestarter A.

If you think the FS9-A is still relevant than you haven't been keeping up to date with comp stuff. Oxide is the best brawling light, and yes, that includes the FS9-A and its worthless range. Honestly I'd take a Splatfox over the FS9-A at this point, granted it still sucks against Oxides.
If you think the FS9-S is chosen over the Cheetah for most comp stuff you would also find yourself a bit disappointed. Cheetah is slowly becoming the goto light, not that the FS9-S is bad, it is still taken because it is still good but most light pilots seem to prefer the Cheetah.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 08 February 2016 - 01:59 PM.

[1453 R]

adamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 01:54 PM, said:

I can only assume you're talking about the 72 point alpha Clan Oxide. A functional light with a 72 point alpha is another discussion. We're talking about general game mechanics, not outlying problems.

Brief aside: give me some credit. Just a little bit. I run hex cSRM-4 in my JIIC(O). Only 48 as opposed to 72, but with five tons of ammunition and still able to max out armor and still have jump jets. I don't consider the hex-6 version 'functional' as anything but a gimmicky two-pump chump backstabber, as it just cannot carry sufficient ammunition to do more than remove one, perhaps two, 'Mechs from a match under anything but absolutely perfect conditions. William Splatner the hex-4 on a 255cXL may be slow by light standards, but it has enough ammo to kill half a team if it needs to - or to miss once or twice in a twisty, harried, real-world engagement.

Especially if it's immune to long-range fire.

[FupDup]

Barantor, on 08 February 2016 - 10:03 AM, said:

Now I dive back into the fact that no vehicle has perfect aim unless it is perfect conditions?

It isn't the beam changing directions, its the barrel swaying all over when you hit the trigger. We are simulating vehicles that were thought up as sci-fi in the 80s, the same time that the movie 'Aliens' was showing those old green screen computers in a high tech world. We are also in a lore universe where things just aren't technologically advanced (clans are a bit better) so a lot of the knowledge base is lost.

We can't get perfect aim now, so why would 80s sci-fi lore be better? I'm one for the lore and simulation over even ease of play, I'm probably in the minority and I know it so I concede certain things, but CoF exists in lots of other games that do very well and simulates all the messed up things that can happen to a vehicle while firing. I think its a good solution to the problem we have of this power creep happening so rapidly lately. I've liked the idea from the beginning, I understand if others don't though.

The mounts on our mech models don't move though. They're static. In-game the beam is just going to bend immediately after leaving the barrel.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Damocles, on 08 February 2016 - 01:34 PM, said:

DoD (Day of Defeat, and source) didn't have a blooming reticle a la COD. But it definitely had a COF just like CS. fwiw.

I know, it's a fixed CoF but it's based on the MOA accuracy of the historical weapon. Firing or moving doesn't bloom the crosshair. Firing or moving simply makes the crosshair move in a naturally predictable pattern, up and slightly right if firing and a side to side sway while moving.

I don't mind reticle sway from moving. Koniving and I pushed for that HARD two years ago. It's already in the game, simply go into 3PV throttle up and down and observe the reticle. That would be realistic and add depth to the game. A blooming CoD style crosshair to turn this into World of Mechs? No thanks.

[Dingo Battler]

This sounds like a great idea, and I support it. They could make AC fire cause the enemy's COF to enlarge, while lasers do nothing, which will shift the balance away from the heavy laser bias now.

Only question is how/when PGI will implement this.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

adamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 01:30 PM, said:

By USMC standards, I'm an "expert" with the M16-A2. Within that 2-4 MOA the shots do go "where-the-****-ever." OP, and myself, are asking for less than that. We're proposing pinpoint accuracy is OK, under certain circumstances (not while running, firing everything at once, jumping or overheating.) That really isn't too much to ask for.

I have ZERO issue with accuracy in the game. My issue is alpha size and volume.

This doesn't adress that, only makes SRM cruisers and MPL/SPL boats the next meta.

And even if I have to pick a system to go with, I'd rather have a movement activated reticule sway like we have in 3PV already in the game. Koniving and I pushed for it hard 2 years ago. It makes landing shots while moving harder, but predictable and enough practice can partially overcome that system by developing skill. Skill can't be developed to directly overcome a programmed Random Number Generator.

WoT has an RNG CoF. And its either derp gun brawling (SRM cruising in MWO) or complete camping (Gauss spam at the back of the map). We had both of those metas already, neither was all that fun. I really don't want World of Mechs.

[Gas Guzzler]

adamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 01:38 PM, said:

One of the best lights at brawling bigger targets. Very situational. Given equal skill, lasers will be able to put all rounds on your leg, while some of your missiles would miss. Plus, you have to get close, depending on the situation, you might not get your time to shine. It's give and take, and lasers fill the most roles.

Testing has shown them to compete with FS9/ACHs in light v light action.

[adamts01]

1453 R, on 08 February 2016 - 01:55 PM, said:

It's technically demanding and a huge resource hog.

So should LBX, SRMs, LRMs and MGs lose their spread?

1453 R, on 08 February 2016 - 01:55 PM, said:

I almost guarantee you that said MAAAS is going to be client-authoritative, or running peer-to-peer, or something else that's easier on the netcode but is also impossible to police for cheating.

Half the game is client-side and potentially hackable, and a completely different topic.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 February 2016 - 01:57 PM, said:

If you think the FS9-A is still relevant than you haven't been keeping up to date with comp stuff. Oxide is the best brawling light, and yes, that includes the FS9-A and its worthless range. Honestly I'd take a Splatfox over the FS9-A at this point, granted it still sucks against Oxides.
If you think the FS9-S is chosen over the Cheetah for most comp stuff you would also find yourself a bit disappointed. Cheetah is slowly becoming the goto light, not that the FS9-S is bad, it is still taken because it is still good but most light pilots seem to prefer the Cheetah.

I honestly don't care much for the comp scene, but I do watch some matches and they have plenty of Firestarters. They have a higher dps, more hit points and better hitboxes than either the Jenner or Cheetah. Not saying the later are bad, or even better in some aspects, but the Firestarter is still a top choice and better in many scenarios.

1453 R, on 08 February 2016 - 02:01 PM, said:

Brief aside: give me some credit. Just a little bit. I run hex cSRM-4 in my JIIC(O). Only 48 as opposed to 72, but with five tons of ammunition and still able to max out armor and still have jump jets. I don't consider the hex-6 version 'functional' as anything but a gimmicky two-pump chump backstabber, as it just cannot carry sufficient ammunition to do more than remove one, perhaps two, 'Mechs from a match under anything but absolutely perfect conditions. William Splatner the hex-4 on a 255cXL may be slow by light standards, but it has enough ammo to kill half a team if it needs to - or to miss once or twice in a twisty, harried, real-world engagement.

Especially if it's immune to long-range fire.

It's a very good mech for sure.

FupDup, on 08 February 2016 - 02:05 PM, said:

The mounts on our mech models don't move though. They're static. In-game the beam is just going to bend immediately after leaving the barrel.

You couldn't see the tiny movement that could cause a 1 degree shift anyway.

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 08 February 2016 - 02:07 PM, said:

I know, it's a fixed CoF but it's based on the MOA accuracy of the historical weapon. Firing or moving doesn't bloom the crosshair. Firing or moving simply makes the crosshair move in a naturally predictable pattern, up and slightly right if firing and a side to side sway while moving.

You've obviously never fired a weapon while running, or even standing still for that matter.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Eh all this really it does is make brawling more favorable where the bloom becomes irrelevant.

This essentially makes long range play unviable because the cost to do so is too high.

[Dirk Le Daring]

Personally, I am not a fan of cof.....

Nice presentation though, major problem that is obvious is obscuring mechs at a distance...

That said, I do have a suggestion that I think will work better, and it starts in mechlab.....

We should have pre-set convergence. This can fit nicely in the weapon grouping section.

Have the equipped weapons listed , have a slider to represent convergence distance and each player gets what they want.

For asymmetrical loadouts this could be based on the centreline of the mech.

So, if I have a large laser in each arm, I could set the convergence to say, 1000 metres. This should not be adjustable in-game (though I can see valid reasons to counter) and the player will have to adjust accordingly. So at 1000 metres both beams meet at a point, closer and further from that point they will never meet.

It's an idea I have been meaning to suggest for quite some time now, but doubt PGI would even read it.

At the end of the day, for me, I have no problem with how it currently works.