1094 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Juodas Varnas, on 04 March 2016 - 01:35 PM, said:

Yeah, and?
Oh no, my 3 simultaneous PPCs will no longer hit in the same exact component, oh whatever can i do?!

Why would you fire 3 PPCs at the same time? Spooky Heat has pretty much killed builds that use more than 2 of them.

Juodas Varnas, on 04 March 2016 - 01:35 PM, said:

Seriously, adding a little bit of CoF isn't going to kill projectile weapons, especially if they get a velocity buff alongside it.

The purpose of buffing velocity is to increase accuracy, particularly at medium to long ranges.

Adding cones would then remove that accuracy you just gave them.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 March 2016 - 01:35 PM, said:

If anything, lasers would be slightly better since the duration gives you some amount of time to correct based on the cone rather than outright miss.

Unintended Consequences™.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 04 March 2016 - 01:39 PM, said:

The purpose of buffing velocity is to increase accuracy, particularly at medium to long ranges.

Adding cones would then remove that accuracy you just gave them.

BUT YOU WOULD MISS FASTER that's a thing right?

FupDup, on 04 March 2016 - 01:39 PM, said:

Why would you fire 3 PPCs at the same time? Spooky Heat has pretty much killed builds that use more than 2 of them.

RIP HGN-732

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 04 March 2016 - 01:49 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 March 2016 - 01:44 PM, said:

RIP HGN-732

I still have mine the same as the day I bought it.

I still take it into testing grounds and private lobby occasionally.

[wanderer]

The difference is that after a certain level of precision, being able to pinpoint perfect massively drops the effective lifespan of the target.

In shooter terms, it means we all get to effectively headshot targets, where we can often effectively reduce a target's effective "hit points" to 20% or less of it's nominal maximum. But only with meta-complementary direct-fire weaponry, of course. Heck, even games like CoD only make it about 50% more effective with hitting a critical spot (ie, the head) with your weapon.

That is a -massive- advantage.

[1453 R]

You know, it has occurred to me that we need to push for a functional melee system before the Deconvergence/Cone-of-Fire people somehow manage to club Piranha about the head and shoulders enough to decouple weapons fire from the aim reticle.

See, that way when all distance weapons in MWO (other than missiles) are rendered functionally useless, we can all switch to melee and play MechPuncher Online for a while instead. Y'know, until people realize that decoupling "aiming" and "hitting" doesn't work in shooters and Piranha reinstates aiming.

As a bonus: we'd then have melee! That's a definite plus, even if it'd cost us a few months of nonfunctional direct-fire weapons to get. Ahhh...if only, eh? Maybe there's hope for melee yet in an engine switch, though I would not hold out much hope...

[wanderer]

I love how 1453 R equals anything that doesn't put his entire lazorbarrage right on the precise spot he aims with every single gun at the same time with removing aiming from the equation.

Remember, skill involves using the weapons that decouple most of your opponent's capacity to take damage when you put the target reticule on them.

[1453 R]

wanderer, on 04 March 2016 - 02:32 PM, said:

I love how 1453 R equals anything that doesn't put his entire lazorbarrage right on the precise spot he aims with every single gun at the same time with removing aiming from the equation.

Remember, skill involves using the weapons that decouple most of your opponent's capacity to take damage when you put the target reticule on them.

How many Gauss Rifles do you intend to use when a Cone of Balance™ system goes through and the Gauss Rifle is no longer able to consistently hit targets at all outside of 200m?

Can't boat Gauss, after all. And Cone of Balance™ means everything goes off-bore, not just massed laser banks. Goose waffles? Off-bore, unable to consistently strike center-mass target outside 200m. Autocannons? off-bore, unable to consistently strike center-mass target outside 200m. Heavy energy, like PPCs or large pulse lasers? Off-bore, unable to consistently strike center-mass target outside 200m. Every time you fire one of these things, you're gambling your 4s cycle time, your ammo, your firing heat, whatever it takes to pull that trigger, on the Whims of Fortune favoring that shot.

That works for crazy hipfire infantry games where you can empty a magazine at someone in four seconds and it only takes three hits from that magazine to win. In a game where your AC/20 hits two shots out of every ton of ammo because the rest veer off-bore due to Cone of Balance™, however, it doesn't play nearly as nicely.

So either you need weapons which are already built and tuned for dealing consistent damage within an imprecise area (missiles), or you need gobsmacking mutt-tons of weapons to fire all at once, so that when eighty percent of them miss you can still deal some damage with the other twenty percent.

Gee...wonder what that second option sounds like...oh, right! It sounds like massed laser batteries!

FUNNY HOW THAT WORKS.

Edited by 1453 R, 04 March 2016 - 02:51 PM.

[wanderer]

>can't hit a center-mass target at 200m with CoF

Looking at the OP's proposal, that's assuming literally the worst case scenario (massive overheat, alpha strike, no zoom).

As opposed to the current system, where you can fire an unzoomed YOLO alpha strike at 99% overheat and everything hits precisely on the money, because muh perfect convergence and heat penalties, wut?

There's definitely a ground between your magical whiffrealm, a viable system, and the current reality to be found.

[cazidin]

wanderer, on 04 March 2016 - 03:17 PM, said:

>can't hit a center-mass target at 200m with CoF

Looking at the OP's proposal, that's assuming literally the worst case scenario (massive overheat, alpha strike, no zoom).

As opposed to the current system, where you can fire an unzoomed YOLO alpha strike at 99% overheat and everything hits precisely on the money, because muh perfect convergence and heat penalties, wut?

There's definitely a ground between your magical whiffrealm, a viable system, and the current reality to be found.

Maybe but a COF mechanic is the second last, worst system that should be considered to mitigate high power Alpha Strikes. The absolute last, absolute worst system would be a convergence mechanic that separates the torsi and arm weapons such that they hit two or more different points on the target.

[1453 R]

Nobody wants the middle ground, Wanderer.

Remember - this:



Is what is driving this discussion. People don't want minor tweaks or adjustments - they want lasers to Vanish From MWO Forever. They don't ever want to get hit with more than one weapon ever again, for any reason, and when they do get hit, they will cry foul to the developers if that weapon happens to be a laser.

Remember: even though Ghost Heat has half-crippled this game for so long people can barely remember how it felt before we had to play Twister with our weapon set-ups, there are still people who say "it was worth it - I never got shot by a six PPC Stalker again."

There is no balance to be had in Cone of Balance™. All it really is, is folks doing the "I don't care how bad the game has to break, so long as I never get shot by a six-PPC Stalker ever again!" dance again.

Look where that dance got us the first time.

[Stelar 7]

Cone of fire is bad.

[wanderer]

Perfect accuracy negating most of the TTK for only -some- of the weapons is worse.

[Thunderbird Anthares]

pinpoint large alphas are worse

[FupDup]

cazidin, on 04 March 2016 - 03:23 PM, said:

Maybe but a COF mechanic is the second last, worst system that should be considered to mitigate high power Alpha Strikes. The absolute last, absolute worst system would be a convergence mechanic that separates the torsi and arm weapons such that they hit two or more different points on the target.

I think that the crown for the absolutely, positively worst idea in this forum's history would be literally random hit locations like TT. The game uses a number generator to pick a number between 2-12, and that determines which hitbox your shots hit.

There was actually a guy on this forum who used to champion that idea. I've not even kidding about something like this. His name was Pht, if you want to look him up.

Another terribad system worthy of mention is forced chainfire (removing ability to fire more than 1 weapon at a time).

Edited by FupDup, 04 March 2016 - 07:39 PM.

[Jolly Llama]

This is still being discussed? What a waste of time.

[oldradagast]

1453 R, on 04 March 2016 - 04:00 PM, said:

There is no balance to be had in Cone of Balance™. All it really is, is folks doing the "I don't care how bad the game has to break, so long as I never get shot by a six-PPC Stalker ever again!" dance again.

Anyone who's paying attention at this point should understand that pinpoint, long range damage is at the root of nearly all balance problems in the game. Some of us would rather address that problem, while I guess others want to make up strawmen about 6 PPC's Stalkers... And, in all honestly, if you don't understand why 60 pinpoint damage at long range is bad for this game... well, there's no point in debating with you.

FupDup, on 04 March 2016 - 07:36 PM, said:

I think that the crown for the absolutely, positively worst idea in this forum's history would be literally random hit locations like TT. The game uses a number generator to pick a number between 2-12, and that determines which hitbox your shots hit.

Good thing that's not what is being proposed here. Amazing how people would rather have ghost heat, shallow play, and a horrible new player experience that kills the game population vs. the "total removal of skill" that would result if a few of their Gauss rounds at long ranges might hit a different component or - gasp! - miss! And as we all know, never having to account for anything unpredictable is the height of skill... or so we're lead to believe...

Edited by oldradagast, 04 March 2016 - 08:02 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

oldradagast, on 04 March 2016 - 07:59 PM, said:

Good thing that's not what is being proposed here. Amazing how people would rather have ghost heat, shallow play, and a horrible new player experience that kills the game population

Shallow maybe to people who don't bother to try and get better, but currently the meta allows for more variety than it ever did, and CoF certainly won't make that better.

oldradagast, on 04 March 2016 - 07:59 PM, said:

never having to account for anything unpredictable is the height of skill... or so we're lead to believe...

The thing you have trouble grasping is the unintended consequences with regards to tactics once unpredictability is added to range. Not even in solo queue do you have to take long range mechs to do well, hell LPL vomit is still incredibly strong in solo queue so I'm not sure where this long range super alpha boogieman is coming from. The days of the poptarts and meta whale are over.

[Beaching Betty]

Nice work on it but Im not interested in the idea..

[ComradeHavoc]

Beaching Betty, on 04 March 2016 - 08:34 PM, said:

Nice work on it but Im not interested in the idea..

How come?

[Beaching Betty]

ComradeHavoc, on 04 March 2016 - 09:57 PM, said:

How come?

well because.