250 replies to this topic

[Johnny Z]

Mister Blastman, on 13 February 2016 - 09:26 PM, said:

Are you arguing for or against yourself? Because it looks like against...

Industrial revolution--automation won. Look at all the stuff we have now! Thanks assembly lines! Thanks CAD! Thanks CNC machines!

We wrote the algorithms... the machines do the rest.

We now have a computer algorithm that can beat a human at Go! That's saying something.

100% wrong. Everyone knows it to. But I am definitely not going into, that it was a scam to under pay workers by putting the credit for the work on the machines owned by the companies and not the workers that actually did all the work. Maybe I'm wrong though.

Edited by Johnny Z, 13 February 2016 - 09:32 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

Johnny Z, on 13 February 2016 - 09:28 PM, said:

Well its slightly related because this guy thinks that the pilot model would have been improved with procedural generation. LOL

I'm only arguing it because you chose to. You are the one that talked trash about open worlds.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 13 February 2016 - 09:34 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Mister Blastman, on 13 February 2016 - 09:33 PM, said:

I'm only arguing it because you chose to. You are the one that talked trash about open worlds.

The assembly line is a really really old way of doing things. Most well known in Italy. Definitely not new to the "industrial revolution".

The largest fleet battle ever to this day was between Venice and Turkey. Venice won to defend its city. Turkey really hasn't taken to the waters in force since. The ships came off the lines like hot cakes for that one.

Edited by Johnny Z, 13 February 2016 - 09:44 PM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Mister Blastman, on 13 February 2016 - 09:09 PM, said:

Well I believe anything is possible if you put your mind and effort to it. It sure beats waiting three years for them to fix an existing map with glaring problems on it.

I do too!... but in PGI's case regarding the task being asked of them, there's a couple caveats though. Those being infinite time and resources. Things that PGI (or really, any game) would desperately require to pull off not just procedural generation, anyone can do that, but to do it in a way that would work well, and specifically, with MWO's slow-paced team-based 24 player match-style no-respawn gameplay.

Just thinking about procedurally generating a well-balanced algorithm, that doesn't stagnate, is free from redundancies, etc. makes my head hurt, and it would be a world-breaking record if PGI pulled it off. They would have to define, literally, everything. And run thousands of tests. It's not going to be a singular algorithm, it's going to be several, each packed with a crazy amount of stipulations, right down to the redundancies (like you pointed out, they aren't a bad thing, they do have their place, but it needs to be controlled). You really don't want one side being better than the other... and in fact, you would really want the same amount of control as you would when you make the map yourself. So what makes a good/bad map in MWO? The problem is that the answer depends on who you ask, and when you ask them.

I'm open to the idea of procedural maps, but I think their realistic involvement in MWO's map generation would be limited to generating a decent starter base map for PGI to build off of, and have it tuned by hand to fit the game.

To take a step into the near future, I think it would be VERY cool (because it would be amazing if PGI made it just this far), if PGI built naked base designs/templates for maps with no assets, and the procedural generator could mix-and-max assets to build different visually varied maps. Such as Caustic Valley could turn out to be a snow-land. Obstacle nodes are placed around the map, and the generator would pick assets (buildings, trees, rocks, or nothing) that match the node properties (large obstacle? medium? small?) and populate the map accordingly.

This way PGI can pump out map templates, and leave the generator to applying an asset tileset to the map. I'd say that's probably more realistic, than a full-blown generator. River City might be River City one time, but the next it might be a Frozen City. or a mix of Forest Colony trees and Viridian Bog terrain. And there may, or may not, be a citidel. It could be this huge mountain, or nothing.

*shrug*
I spoke a bit more than I thought I would... sry.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 13 February 2016 - 09:43 PM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

GRiPSViGiL, on 13 February 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

This is a clear indication the change is pointless. The old model was acceptable. The new one is no better or no worse considering it is the equivalent to watching the bar fill of a loading screen until you can control your mech. Without more artists that coders though it makes sense we primarily receive inconsequential things like this that do absolutely nothing for gameplay.

Maybe to you... You do understand that, asset artists, work on exactly that, asset's... it's likely that one of the artists had some freetime [because maybe they finished the most recent mech textures, ect.] and decided to do a cockpit pilot redesign.

I for one, welcome this change, the cooling suit actively bothered me, I'd much, much rather have a more, grungy, "flightsuit" style like this new one than the shiny starleague era thing we had before.

For you, it might not matter, but clearly, you have 0 care for lore, or for the setting, for for anything that makes Battletech well, Battletech.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Mister Blastman, on 13 February 2016 - 09:33 PM, said:

I'm only arguing it because you chose to. You are the one that talked trash about open worlds.

Open World, and Procedural generated worlds, are not exclusive ideas you know.

You can have a very very carefully crafted open world, where you take care to make things a specific way.

And you can have one done through procedural generation.

But in almost every instance, the crafted one, will be miles better, because it was made with intention. Want an example of this, go load up Megamek, and in the map screen, select "Generated map settings"

Even with optimal "parameters" you will often get near unplayble, or imbalanced map design. Why? Because a randomly generated playfield, will never be as fair as one carefully crafted for the experience.

To be fair, in MWO, if we had PVE, Procedural generation for PVE maps would be fine, but not for the PVP part of the game, not at all.

Edited by CMDR Sunset Shimmer, 13 February 2016 - 10:45 PM.

[MechaBattler]

Thanks PGI. No, really thanks. it's something people asked for way back when and they said they would get around to doing it. They finally did months or possibly even a year later. So I don't know why people are getting their chones in a bunch over it, talking about priorities, pfft.

[Scanz]

-50fps.

[Lily from animove]

Well, not sure.

first there should b visible differences between clan and is pilots.

second the Is pilots would have to be "near naked" by lore because IS doesn't have cooling vests (lostech= and that caused by lore most IS mechwariors to go for a hgih temperature outfit.

Alistair Winter, on 12 February 2016 - 05:13 PM, said:

Hey, I've seen some sh*t, but I still wouldn't be wearing underwear to war. Ever burn your naked thighs on leather seats in the summer? Not to mention that mechwarriors, like tank crews, are sometimes forced to leave their vehicle. In that situation, a bullet-proof thong isn't going to help that much!

you would not eb necessarily nakes you would probably have soem cloth in your cockpit in that case. But doesn't helsp when you are on HPG, and have to exit
Whenever during combat you have to exit your mech you are mostlikely screwed anyways.

Edited by Lily from animove, 14 February 2016 - 12:25 AM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Lily from animove, on 14 February 2016 - 12:24 AM, said:

Well, not sure.

first there should b visible differences between clan and is pilots.

second the Is pilots would have to be "near naked" by lore because IS doesn't have cooling vests (lostech= and that caused by lore most IS mechwariors to go for a hgih temperature outfit.



you would not eb necessarily nakes you would probably have soem cloth in your cockpit in that case. But doesn't helsp when you are on HPG, and have to exit
Whenever during combat you have to exit your mech you are mostlikely screwed anyways.

Actually IS have cooling vests, and very, very rarely have full cooling suits.

Technically it should be Clan pilots have cooling suits, or something similar, and IS pilots should have vests [since Kerensky would have taken a bunch of suits with him, and it likely would have been a system utilized much more heavily by the advanced clans.]

[Ratpoison]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 14 February 2016 - 12:33 AM, said:

Actually IS have cooling vests, and very, very rarely have full cooling suits.

Technically it should be Clan pilots have cooling suits, or something similar, and IS pilots should have vests [since Kerensky would have taken a bunch of suits with him, and it likely would have been a system utilized much more heavily by the advanced clans.]

"cooling vests" are nonsensical BS and need to be thrown out. What's the point of putting on protective gear at all if you're going to leave half your skin exposed to burn from the conditions? That isn't how effective cooling and insulation works, and I don't honestly understand how the people at FASA thought it made any sense. I'm perfectly fine with redacting that part of the lore, it needs a rewrite.

Edited by tortuousGoddess, 14 February 2016 - 02:20 AM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

tortuousGoddess, on 14 February 2016 - 02:20 AM, said:

"cooling vests" are nonsensical BS and need to be thrown out. What's the point of putting on protective gear at all if you're going to leave half your skin exposed to burn from the conditions? That isn't how effective cooling and insulation works, and I don't honestly understand how the people at FASA thought it made any sense. I'm perfectly fine with redacting that part of the lore, it needs a rewrite.

Cooling Vests help regulate your "Core" body temprature... as a matter of fact, these vests ACTUALLY EXIST! http://www.veskimo.c...ooling-vest.php

In Battletech, they're essentially a ballistic kevlar vest [with some spaceaged nonesense] with coolant pipes running through them.

Keep in mind, the seat also has a coolant system running through it, and it's unlikely that the pilot would be comming into contact with anything superheated in the cockpit. The point of the coolant vest, is that a lot of waste heat DOES filter up through the cockpit from the reactor, before being shunted by the heatsinks, in these quick bursts of heat, the cooling vest pumps coolant through the tubes, to keep the core body temprature of the pilot at a sustainable level, and is considered part of the cockpit's "life support" systems. Which also include air pumps and sometimes shock absorbing functions.

Its part of the lore, and no, it doesn't need to be "Thrown out". It's part of Battletech, and has been for over 30 years!

[Ratpoison]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 14 February 2016 - 02:47 AM, said:

Cooling Vests help regulate your "Core" body temprature... as a matter of fact, these vests ACTUALLY EXIST! http://www.veskimo.c...ooling-vest.php

In Battletech, they're essentially a ballistic kevlar vest [with some spaceaged nonesense] with coolant pipes running through them.

Keep in mind, the seat also has a coolant system running through it, and it's unlikely that the pilot would be comming into contact with anything superheated in the cockpit. The point of the coolant vest, is that a lot of waste heat DOES filter up through the cockpit from the reactor, before being shunted by the heatsinks, in these quick bursts of heat, the cooling vest pumps coolant through the tubes, to keep the core body temprature of the pilot at a sustainable level, and is considered part of the cockpit's "life support" systems. Which also include air pumps and sometimes shock absorbing functions.

Its part of the lore, and no, it doesn't need to be "Thrown out". It's part of Battletech, and has been for over 30 years!

I know it has some established lore value, but it's long overdue for a rewrite. I understand how it's supposed to work, but I also understand that physics says it just doesn't. Notice the real life example you brought up is specifically designed to be worn underneath protective gear. The cooling vest would indeed shunt off heat from you, but the fact that your body is not insulated and your skin is exposed means that its efficiency would be drastically reduced, as the heat continuously transfers directly into your skin.

Lore talks all the time about these systems being necessary to protect pilots from lethal levels of heat, and while a cooling vest may be enough to keep you alive, there's no way your exposed skin would avoid being horribly burned from the hot air in the cockpit. I just can't hear "cooling vest" without my head hurting anymore, and that's before even looking at how ugly they were designed...sometimes it's just far more worth it to take a second shot at the concept, not everything will be worth keeping...

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Clearly you don't understand how it works.

No it's not due for a rewrite. Yes it's one of the FEW Things in battletech with some actual scientific evidence behind it. [In fact, the medical field tells us that keeping the core body temp stable is more important than worrying about extremities.]

I get you don't like it, but guess what, a good number of us, do. You clearly don't like the battletech for the "Stupid 80's scifi logic" And you know what, I do.

So no, go ********** and play around in another universe if you want, I want my stupid, nonsensical 80's lowtech scifi god damn it!

[Ratpoison]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 14 February 2016 - 04:00 AM, said:

Clearly you don't understand how it works.

No it's not due for a rewrite. Yes it's one of the FEW Things in battletech with some actual scientific evidence behind it. [In fact, the medical field tells us that keeping the core body temp stable is more important than worrying about extremities.]

I get you don't like it, but guess what, a good number of us, do. You clearly don't like the battletech for the "Stupid 80's scifi logic" And you know what, I do.

So no, go ********** and play around in another universe if you want, I want my stupid, nonsensical 80's lowtech scifi god damn it!

No need to get defensive, I'm just explaining why I'm glad PGI has so far redacted the idea. The real problem I have with the scenario lore wise, is that the only reason cooling vests even exist, is because the ability to attach arms and legs to them is somehow "lostech". Now, I'm not going to hate on the lostech idea. It's great for a lot of things in Battletech, and it's key to the technological stagnation and cultural isolation which make the Battletech universe so rich and interesting.

However, there are certain instances in which it was used with poor consideration, and I believe this to be one of the strongest examples of that. The idea that technological stagnation is somehow so bad that they can only manufacture vests instead of fully insulating them is just absurd. In the face of the obvious need for it, there is no way I can accept that this would somehow be a limitation for centuries to come. It's the one thing I simply redact out of my campaigns, because I just cannot stand how starkly bad the science fiction is in comparison to the rest of the universe. With PGI, HBS, and Catalyst now all working on canonical lore(Hero mechs were recently accepted as canon, for example), this is the perfect time for them to correct old mistakes like these.

Edited by tortuousGoddess, 14 February 2016 - 04:15 AM.

[Aetes Nakatomi]

Cooling vests? No problem. Makes sense.
Sitting in your under skivvies while in a hot air environment? Big problem. Makes no sense.

Alas heat dissipation is not a case of less clothes = more cooling. In a hot air environment it actually means the opposite. So I am glad that the pilot is clothed from both a scientific standpoint and because to people who do not know it is lore won't be put off by the weird half naked pilots at the start of the match.

What i would like to see is faction specific uniforms.

[Juodas Varnas]

Aetes Nakatomi, on 14 February 2016 - 04:21 AM, said:

weird half naked pilots

But i want to be a weird half-naked pilot

[Aetes Nakatomi]

Juodas Varnas, on 14 February 2016 - 04:24 AM, said:

But i want to be a weird half-naked pilot

Then be like the rest of us and do it from your computer chair

Edited by Aetes Nakatomi, 14 February 2016 - 04:27 AM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

tortuousGoddess, on 14 February 2016 - 04:14 AM, said:

No need to get defensive, I'm just explaining why I'm glad PGI has so far redacted the idea. The real problem I have with the scenario lore wise, is that the only reason cooling vests even exist, is because the ability to attach arms and legs to them is somehow "lostech". Now, I'm not going to hate on the lostech idea. It's great for a lot of things in Battletech, and it's key to the technological stagnation and cultural isolation which make the Battletech universe so rich and interesting.

However, there are certain instances in which it was used with poor consideration, and I believe this to be one of the strongest examples of that. The idea that technological stagnation is somehow so bad that they can only manufacture vests instead of fully insulating them is just absurd. In the face of the obvious need for it, there is no way I can accept that this would somehow be a limitation for centuries to come. It's the one thing I simply redact out of my campaigns, because I just cannot stand how starkly bad the science fiction is in comparison to the rest of the universe. With PGI, HBS, and Catalyst now all working on canonical lore(Hero mechs were recently accepted as canon, for example), this is the perfect time for them to correct old mistakes like these.

If it's been around for 30+ years... it's not a mistake. Stop calling it as such.

[Ratpoison]

Aetes Nakatomi, on 14 February 2016 - 04:21 AM, said:

Cooling vests? No problem. Makes sense.
Sitting in your under skivvies while in a hot air environment? Big problem. Makes no sense.

Alas heat dissipation is not a case of less clothes = more cooling. In a hot air environment it actually means the opposite. So I am glad that the pilot is clothed from both a scientific standpoint and because to people who do not know it is lore won't be put off by the weird half naked pilots at the start of the match.

What i would like to see is faction specific uniforms.

Absolutely agreed about more uniforms, but I can be patient since it should be low priority.

Besides, it's not hard to guess the real reasons why they accepted the lostech handwave excuse on the vests...


Yeah, I'd say it could use an update.