679 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 15 February 2016 - 11:24 AM, said:

I always find the hyperbole funny in these threads. Like somehow putting effort into finding out what works and why is some sort of hack or exploit.

The meta isn't some clique or fashion statement. It's just a reduction of what works best most consistently.

That's it. It's a identification of what the most efficiently successful designs and methods are.

The Pants Before Shoes meta isn't some restrictive cultural policy designed to oppress the Shoes First masses for exercising their getting dressed creativity. You put your pants on before your shoes because it works better. Putting your shoes on first is just stupid. If someone tells you that it's just more comfortable for them you're going to realize that they're just being dense.

What works best I'd what works best. It's not a conspiracy, it's not some plot to steal your fun. This is compounded by the fact that this is not a single player game - you deciding to put on shoes before pants slows your whole team getting dressed. Saying "I still get dressed just fine" is pretty goofy, pants THEN shoes is just better. You can get into why but that doesn't change that it's better.

The other big problem is that because some people don't understand why some things work better than others they don't believe anyone else has figured it out either. This gets compounded again when you have people who think anyone who understands something better than them is a bully or trying to trick them.

.
pants then shoes may be better, but is or more fun?

Or really anyone else's business?

[Dahkoht]

Again , the "pros" avoid the main point of being an *** over a video game is never anything but immature , you are never in the right to be a ***** over pixels , no matter how much said pixels matter to you.

And also, I've yet to ever see a majority in game agree with said pro being an *** in chat. At most he has one bro to "huh huh
and back him up , while the majority just prefer said pro shut up overall, Their ranting is far worse to most adults than anyone's choice of a build.

It doesn't occur to the pro bro force that what they consider enjoyment in a pickup solo queue play , is not what the majority of the team there does. They are delusional enough to think they are speaking for the majority , when the vast majority of people prefer polite adults to play with , and it's the loud and proud "pros" that most just ignore and squelch in voice chat.

Amusingly , I wonder how many "pros" who are rude are actually talking to no one else but the other pro bro force because most reasonable adults have them muted in game.

Edited by Dahkoht, 15 February 2016 - 11:43 AM.

[Gyrok]

Dahkoht, on 15 February 2016 - 11:42 AM, said:

Again , the "pros" avoid the main point of being an *** over a video game is never anything but immature , you are never in the right to be a ***** over pixels , no matter how much said pixels matter to you.

And also, I've yet to ever see a majority in game agree with said pro being an *** in chat. At most he has one bro to "huh huh
and back him up , while the majority just prefer said pro shut up overall, Their ranting is far worse to most adults than anyone's choice of a build.

It doesn't occur to the pro bro force that what they consider enjoyment in a pickup solo queue play , is not what the majority of the team there does. They are delusional enough to think they are speaking for the majority , when the vast majority of people prefer polite adults to play with , and it's the loud and proud "pros" that most just ignore and squelch in voice chat.

Amusingly , I wonder how many "pros" who are rude are actually talking to no one else but the other pro bro force because most reasonable adults have them muted in game.

Stay in T5 then and avoid the "pro bro force".

You and the other scrubs can play bad builds, and be polite about losing. So, keep tanking your W/L and stay in a low tier. Because if you ever make it to my tier, and I see you driving a **** build, I am going to tell you to stop pulling the team down with your **** build.

If you want to avoid T1 tryhards, stay in low tiers. T5 cannot match with T1...remember that. If you start "playing to win" and come up in tier to our level, then you are now playing our team game, and your lack of pulling your own weight will be entirely unappreciated....at all.

EDIT: To specifically address this:

Quote

Again , the "pros" avoid the main point of being an *** over a video game is never anything but immature , you are never in the right to be a ***** over pixels , no matter how much said pixels matter to you.

I have as much right to call you out for ruining my enjoyment, as you have to call anyone out for "being an *** over a video game".

There are other games out there. Not to put too fine a point on that...

Edited by Gyrok, 15 February 2016 - 11:50 AM.

[Dahkoht]

Awesome , simply awesome, you don't even realize how many people are laughing at you , how pitiful you look ranting over your pixels.

You , and the other few "pro's" , are definitely "softball guy"

It's ok though , I realize you need something to make yourself feel better in some way. If throwing a hissy fit over your "pro" status as a MWO player is the bottom it has hit , there really should be more pity for you.

Still ca't help but laugh though.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 15 February 2016 - 11:28 AM, said:

.
pants then shoes may be better, but is or more fun?

Or really anyone else's business?

If you're not actually contributing to the team's success with your build, your "fun" is ruining mine. It's as simple as that.

Edited by Deathlike, 15 February 2016 - 12:07 PM.

[pyrocomp]

Deathlike, on 15 February 2016 - 12:04 PM, said:

If you're not actually contributing to the team's success with your build, your "fun" is ruining mine. It's as simple as that.

And if he does contribute (with posted good W/L)? OP's T3 (not a 'high tier'). Does he ruing something to somebody IF he playes often and his PSR is stable? Isn't it a whole point that there is a system indicative of bad play? When did we start to have Mechlab contests and leaderboards anyway? Still can't get why you are from a single LRM rack derive that mech will be a backliner useless at first row? Just how?

[Deathlike]

pyrocomp, on 15 February 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

And if he does contribute (with posted good W/L)? OP's T3 (not a 'high tier'). Does he ruing something to somebody IF he playes often and his PSR is stable? Isn't it a whole point that there is a system indicative of bad play? When did we start to have Mechlab contests and leaderboards anyway? Still can't get why you are from a single LRM rack derive that mech will be a backliner useless at first row? Just how?

When I see Atlases (especially D-DCs and Ss) chucking missiles from the back of the team while the team is losing, the focus becomes refined to "that guy".

I've been in enough games with such people to be reminded of this.

I don't have a problem being next to the Atlas that is willing to die for his team... I have every right to complain about the Atlas that is relatively stationary for the bulk of the match while the rest of the team is effectively "getting locks" for him for all the wrong reasons.

Edited by Deathlike, 15 February 2016 - 12:27 PM.

[pyrocomp]

Deathlike, on 15 February 2016 - 12:24 PM, said:

When I see Atlases (especially D-DCs and Ss) chucking missiles from the back of the team while the team is losing, the focus becomes refined to "that guy".

Where in this thread appeared 'in the back'? Where? You had first hand statements here that OP is playing first line and pushin all ok? Why in first 15 seconds seeing LRM volley you make a conclusion that that mech will be a back row coward?

Nobody, especially the guys that are vocably against that build, had cared to answer that quetion - where that conclusion comes from.

Edited by pyrocomp, 15 February 2016 - 12:27 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 15 February 2016 - 11:28 AM, said:

.
pants then shoes may be better, but is or more fun?

Or really anyone else's business?

I've said it a million times -

Play for fun.

However it's a team game. There is no real solo play here. When you go **** around you're boning 11 other people.

We are all on public transportation here. Nobody is in their own car. When you don't shower for a week because you think the fluoride in the water makes you susceptible to mind control you're going to stink and the 11 people sitting close to you are going to say something.

Which is okay - you stink and it's inconvenient for them. Why you didn't shower isn't their business. That you stink is, because you're on a bus crammed in close to 11 people who have to put up with your stink.

I'm saying play what you want. Do your thing. Saying that nobody gets to point out that you stink because you're afraid showering makes you vulnerable to mind control from the NSA is BS though. If you stink it affects the people who have to sit next to you.

[Sandpit]

I'll jsut chime in with my usual "Dont' listen to others when it comes to YOUR build". Play with what you personally do well with and have fun in.

Some will say anything not "meta" is a "bad" build.

Keep doing you OP, dont' worry about the peopel complaining and if they get too "mean" about it, just report and block them

[Deathlike]

pyrocomp, on 15 February 2016 - 12:26 PM, said:

Where in this thread appeared 'in the back'? Where? You had first hand statements here that OP is playing first line and pushin all ok? Why in first 15 seconds seeing LRM volley you make a conclusion that that mech will be a back row coward?

If you're going to brawl, you bring the proper tools to it. The build suggested is vastly inefficient for that task, so that Atlas's death is more or less meaningless because the firepower is not going to properly dent the opfor's brawling response.

Quote

Nobody, especially the guys that are vocably against that build, had cared to answer that quetion - where that conclusion comes from.

The reason for this is simple - it's what happens more often than not (the Atlas with the LRMs are usually in the back).

If you're going to brawl, you build to maximize this. Failing to do so makes you really bad at attempting to do it (you don't really "brawl" with laser vomit either).

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 15 February 2016 - 12:26 PM, said:

I've said it a million times -

Play for fun.

However it's a team game. There is no real solo play here. When you go **** around you're boning 11 other people.

We are all on public transportation here. Nobody is in their own car. When you don't shower for a week because you think the fluoride in the water makes you susceptible to mind control you're going to stink and the 11 people sitting close to you are going to say something.

Which is okay - you stink and it's inconvenient for them. Why you didn't shower isn't their business. That you stink is, because you're on a bus crammed in close to 11 people who have to put up with your stink.

I'm saying play what you want. Do your thing. Saying that nobody gets to point out that you stink because you're afraid showering makes you vulnerable to mind control from the NSA is BS though. If you stink it affects the people who have to sit next to you.

Just personal freedoms in general being discussed honestly.

You're free to do whatever you want, we have free will. Sometimes there are consequences to your free will though. Stink on the bus and people may very well point that out, make fun of, harass, etc. That's their free will in operation.

Another's personal rights and freedoms end when they start infringing on another's.

[Marauder3D]

This seems like a binary argument when it really isn't.

People should play the mechs they want to play. AND, folks are going to feel free to chime in on your build. Both are acceptable in my mind.

Cheers!

[pyrocomp]

Deathlike, on 15 February 2016 - 12:31 PM, said:

If you're going to brawl, you bring the proper tools to it. The build suggested is vastly inefficient for that task, so that Atlas's death is more or less meaningless because the firepower is not going to properly dent the opfor's brawling response.

If you are not brawling good then better keep some ranged stuff. Seen all to many useless brawling Atlases focused and melted before they could fire those SRMs. Really, you need some specific set of skills to brawl (and not everybody like it). So again, depends on opfor behavior. If they are not immediately pushing LRMs are a way to dent quite enough of opfor armor. Keep in mind, we talk T3, not T0.

[Deathlike]

pyrocomp, on 15 February 2016 - 12:38 PM, said:

If you are not brawling good then better keep some ranged stuff. Seen all to many useless brawling Atlases focused and melted before they could fire those SRMs. Really, you need some specific set of skills to brawl (and not everybody like it). So again, depends on opfor behavior. If they are not immediately pushing LRMs are a way to dent quite enough of opfor armor. Keep in mind, we talk T3, not T0.

Success is dictated by the victors.

If a team is outtrading you at range, you probably need to stop trading.

If a team is outbrawling you, you probably need to find more open spawn to reduce the effectiveness of the brawl.


Very often, an Atlas is melted quickly MAINLY because of one of two things. Either there is a firing line (and very often this is MIA in PUG play) or the Atlas is doing a horrible job of getting to the action. The success of an Atlas is greatly in part of being smart at getting to the battle, using cover as much as possible. Far too often some try to peak over the top or do walk in the middle of open ground - and this is what gets Atlases killed quickly and efficiently.

The other thing is that when an Atlas pushes AND the teammates are not pushing with it, then the Atlas falls much quicker. This is what often happens with bad teams as the race to self-preservation over being a good teammate often dictates failure.


It has little to do with Tiers, it has EVERYTHING to do with execution.

Edited by Deathlike, 15 February 2016 - 12:46 PM.

[MeanFacedJohnny]

Kodyn, on 15 February 2016 - 05:06 AM, said:

Wow, lot going on in this thread, when it really boils down to a very simple concept.

This is the internet. You can do pretty much whatever you want, but you also have to expect and accept that everyone else can too.

You run sub-par builds in a game that many view as a competitive team game, you have to accept that you will get crap for it. You aren't going to get people to not point out something they see as stupid, any more than them pointing out your mistakes is going to make you change what you're doing.

Basically, the community as a whole has just as much right to dislike your builds and you for using them as you have to resist getting better or helping your team more.

This entire thread was just here to make one person feel better about their own actions, and is ultimately just as pointless as the advice people were giving the OP in game. Players aren't going to suddenly stop calling out other players for bad builds, and lower-end players aren't going to suddenly gain a new attitude about the game and decide to get better.

If he's having fun, he's gonna keep on doing his thing, whether it works well or makes anyone else happy or not. At the same time, he has to accept that there will always be someone pointing out how poor his build is. Get over it. This is the internet. Go play in the sandbox if you want your hand held and everyone to tell you it's all gonna be ok in the end. That applies to both sides of the argument.

This thread is here to question why, if I am consistently winning, helping the team, not sitting back boating, am I getting bitched at for having LRM's. Had you read my post all the way (I know its long) you would have seen; It is not about not taking advice. People in game don't give advice, they b*tch, well before the game is close to done. Usually from people who die early because they want to face rush something and then get pissy they are dead. I blatantly said I'm not looking to have my ego stroked. I also said that I do have a "meta" build atlas and do well with it. Every mech I own, except this one that I am talking about, is a brawler build. I just tend to enjoy my D-DC more. You are yet another person not willing to read past the first few sentences and assuming the rest and putting words in my mouth. You know what happens when you assume. Had you read the whole post you would have seen where the bottom line of my message is if you don't like it, fine, but dont be a crytit about it. Suggest something better, or better yet, wait till the end of the game and see if I 'failed' before you cry about my LRM's. Mostly try to be respectful because nobody will listen to you when you are being a d*ck. Like your ending comment about the sandbox, why would I care about anything you say when you can't show the slightest bit of respect or decency.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

MeanFacedJohnny, on 15 February 2016 - 12:50 PM, said:

This thread is here to question why, if I am consistently winning, helping the team, not sitting back boating, am I getting bitched at for having LRM's. Had you read my post all the way (I know its long) you would have seen; It is not about not taking advice. People in game don't give advice, they b*tch, well before the game is close to done. Usually from people who die early because they want to face rush something and then get pissy they are dead. I blatantly said I'm not looking to have my ego stroked. I also said that I do have a "meta" build atlas and do well with it. Every mech I own, except this one that I am talking about, is a brawler build. I just tend to enjoy my D-DC more. You are yet another person not willing to read past the first few sentences and assuming the rest and putting words in my mouth. You know what happens when you assume. Had you read the whole post you would have seen where the bottom line of my message is if you don't like it, fine, but dont be a crytit about it. Suggest something better, or better yet, wait till the end of the game and see if I 'failed' before you cry about my LRM's. Mostly try to be respectful because nobody will listen to you when you are being a d*ck. Like your ending comment about the sandbox, why would I care about anything you say when you can't show the slightest bit of respect or decency.

Just 'right click' their name on the score board and select "Report -> Harassment".

Then select "mute".

It's that easy.

Edited by The Atlas Overlord, 15 February 2016 - 12:55 PM.

[Roughneck45]

MeanFacedJohnny, on 15 February 2016 - 12:50 PM, said:

This thread is here to question why, if I am consistently winning, helping the team, not sitting back boating, am I getting bitched at for having LRM's.

Because people will perceive it as a bad build. Doesnt matter if you had the best game of your life.

LRMs are pretty polarizing weapons. They can be devastating against new players and a complete waste of tonnage against experienced ones.

Edited by Roughneck45, 15 February 2016 - 12:56 PM.

[oldradagast]

Sandpit, on 15 February 2016 - 12:31 PM, said:

Just personal freedoms in general being discussed honestly.

You're free to do whatever you want, we have free will. Sometimes there are consequences to your free will though. Stink on the bus and people may very well point that out, make fun of, harass, etc. That's their free will in operation.

Another's personal rights and freedoms end when they start infringing on another's.

Technically, that means being a foul-tongued troll because somebody brought a bad build to a match is also unacceptable because you're infringing on somebody else's rights and freedoms to build mechs as they see fit.

At any rate, if I see horrid build, I sometimes offer a helpful suggestion and move on. It's just a game, and anyone who really feels a need to curse out another player because he has LRM's on his Atlas or something really needs to reconsider the priories in his life, IMHO.

The real problem is that the game's tutorial offers zero information on how to make viable builds in the game; new players may assume that stock builds, or close to them, make sense, because "why else would they sell mechs that way?" In reality, of course, most stock builds are nearly useless, so new players should have a way in-game to get a handle on what builds work and why.

Edited by oldradagast, 15 February 2016 - 01:17 PM.

[Sjorpha]

Lily from animove, on 15 February 2016 - 06:44 AM, said:

And the circle closes back to PSR. if PSR would be harsh and proper casuals like the OP would not meet the competitive crowd.

Yes, that's true. PSR could be harsher, and a zero sum bell curve system as well. But even then there would be a trade off between competitive matches and waiting times. There won't be a wide acceptance of significantly longer waiting times, so at best you can achieve a marginal improvement here. The mix of mindsets will still be there, because some of the casuals are actually good players, and some of the competitively minded aren't that good. It's a war of ideas primarily, not a divide in skill level.

Mystere, on 15 February 2016 - 07:57 AM, said:

There is a reason MWO has a solo queue, grouped queues, and private matches. Leave the first one to the casuals and use the rest for the "competitive" types.

This is a false dichotomy I think, and not realistic.

Many of the competitively minded players are solo players, and many of the casual players likes to get together with friends and run in groups too. Competitive mindset also does not mean you have to be playing in leagues and stuff, many gamers have a competitive approach to gaming in general, even if they only play that game sporadically for some quick fun they will still play it to win.

Every online game ever is evidence that you WILL have this clash of mindsets and that it WILL cause problems. It's a matter of dealing with that fact of online gaming, and the discussion should be about that IMO.

As for the OP, he's annoyed that people complain about his build. I have to say I agree with him, people should not be complaining about how other players build their mechs or play the game. That goes both ways, casual players should not complain about losing to competitive players or metabuilds either.

Edited by Sjorpha, 15 February 2016 - 01:18 PM.