679 replies to this topic

[Sjorpha]

In every online game I've played, there is this endless bickering between the casual and the competitive mindset.

The first thing to mention here is that this isn't a measure of skill, you can have good and bad players in both of those categories. The top tier players tend to think competitively and vice versa, but it is quite possible to be competitive and fail to improve or to be causal and still dominate reasonably high level through raw talent. For example myself I'm very competitive in terms of mindset, but I'm not actually a comp level player at this game.

The competitively minded player thinks the game is more fun the harder everyone tries to win, because what you're after is on the one hand a process of continual self improvement (towards perfection), and on the other hand the special kind of thrill that comes with a truly high level of play. You play to win by all means not because the win in itself is important but because playing to win is the only way to achieve this particular experience. This is how I relate to gaming myself, it's the one thing that interests me about playing games in the first place.

Casual players on the other hand, have a different conception of the value in playing a game. Having fun is derived from some other amalgamation of factors such as the personal experience of creativity and freedom, roleplay, immersion in the game world or whatever else.

Sometimes it also involves a personal moral perspective, where certain things are considered "lame" or "exploits" or "lore inappropriate" or whatever despite being technically legal moves in the game, and a player with such a code is what competitively minded players refer to as a "scrub".

I can't analyze the casual side of things very well because I ultimately don't know what it is like to value any of those factors higher than the competition and optimization that I find so much more fun and creative than doing anything suboptimal on purpose. To me making a bad build in the name of "creativity" is exactly like designing a product that doesn't work and calling it "innovation". The way I see it, creativity and innovation is to design something new that actually works better that what was before, or at least better in some situation. To qualify as creative your mech build has to outperform the meta builds at doing something, if it doesn't actually do that it's like dulling your kitchen knifes to make cooking a challenge, or cutting little holes in your umbrella to show solidarity with your dog. You're free to do it, but I'm not going to acknowledge it as creative or innovative and I'll tell you how silly and stupid it is if you ask me.

I think it's a pretty dead end to try and find a "right" way to relate to games, these mindsets exist and must both be given a platform to thrive. But the problem is that they actually DO clash in a practical sense rather than just being ideas to discuss, they cause real problems for each other. It's easy to say you can just play the game your own way and let others be, but in reality the behavior of other players shape your experience.

Casual players REALLY DO cause problems for the competitive players because they actually diminish the quality of matches from a competitive standpoint. A bad build or other bad move made on purpose REALLY DOES interfere with the whole heart and soul of playing the game, if enough people in a match don't play to win it really does become a waste of time from this standpoint. And if the result is to unbalance teams it really does ruin the match for competitively minded players on both sides.

Competitive players REALLY DO cause problems for casual players because even if you're not playing only to win, you can't have your personal kind of fun while getting constantly stomped. This is the fundamental paradox of casual play in my opinion, I'm deliberately not "playing to win" but I still don't want to lose too often. I find it a little weird to think this way, but i admit I can see how a competitive player on a peak efficiency meta tryhard kill spree is no fun for a bunch of people goofing around in stock mechs roleplaying some battletech character or whatnot.

So yeah, part of the solution is to minimize the concern with other people's way of playing, casual players and acknowledge that they have no right to complain about "tryhards" and competitive players can accept that "scrubs" also have a right to play the game the way hey want to.

But it can't be the ONLY solution because, as described above the two mindsets in certain situations REALLY DO prevent each other from enjoying the game simply because they both turn the matches into something the other mindset will not enjoy. To be fair the competive players have an advantage here in two ways, they get to win even when the match isn't to their liking and they have tournaments and all the other actual competitive scenes where everyone thinks like them. The casual players have no real refuge from competitive players, because they will be in the casual arenas too.

Not that it keeps me up at night or anything, but it helps me to accept their need to blow off steam on the forums and make up conspiracies and insults about units/comp/tryhard players.

Edited by Sjorpha, 15 February 2016 - 06:42 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Sjorpha, on 15 February 2016 - 06:29 AM, said:

Competitive players REALLY DO cause problems for casual players because even if you're not playing only to win, you can't have your personal kind of fun while getting constantly stomped. This is the fundamental paradox of casual play in my opinion, I'm deliberately not "playing to win" but I still don't want to lose too often. I find it a little weird to think this way, but i admit I can see how a competitive player on a peak efficiency meta tryhard kill spree is no fun for a bunch of people goofing around in stock mechs roleplaying some battletech character or whatnot.

And the circle closes back to PSR. if PSR would be harsh and proper casuals like the OP would not meet the competitive crowd.

[Almond Brown]

ScarecrowES, on 14 February 2016 - 03:26 PM, said:

It's a very good point. Difficult to generalize completely, of course, as you'd have to see the makeup of the team and exactly how everyone was contributing. But what you CAN tell is who the team feels is not contributing relative to expectation and why. But on a match-to-match basis, you're right...300 damage in a crappy build may very well be the very best score on the team. He could easily carry matches at 600 damage. But given that he's complaining about being called out frequently, you can expect he's probably not the guy carrying the team very often.

Fair enough but he is being called out because of a single weapon system, loaded on a single Chassis, that for some reason, others feel "obligated" to run their mouths about as being "bad". Well **** em all but 6, for they be Pall Bearers! are words to live by.

What would be best is that "everyone" who calls out another be "obligated" to Post their own Build on these Forums after said call-out. Guess what? That will never happen because those loud mouthed DB's couldn't take the heat they would receive about their own builds, whether they think they are "optimal" or not someone will/can always do better. Most are simply unoriginal Copy/Paste builds ripped from others designs anyways. As usual, the "loudest of the mouth breathers" are usually also the least creative.

That is the #1 Rule around here. Post that the sky is "Blue" and 3 posts in you will be in gross error and be told so in a rather unflattering manner guaranteed...

Edited by Almond Brown, 15 February 2016 - 07:08 AM.

[Jehofi]

Lily from animove, on 15 February 2016 - 06:44 AM, said:

And the circle closes back to PSR. if PSR would be harsh and proper casuals like the OP would not meet the competitive crowd.

Unless the casual is actually good and the comp. player is truly bad. You know bad like the ones that berate you for not playing meta Mechs (in Tier 4).

[Tarogato]

Almond Brown, on 15 February 2016 - 07:05 AM, said:

That is the #1 Rule around here. Post that the sky is "Blue" and 3 posts in you will be in gross error and be told so in a rather unflattering manner guaranteed...

You know...

[Almond Brown]

Bud Crue, on 14 February 2016 - 03:48 PM, said:

As an aside to all this fun.

I know PGI is pushing the whole e-sports, comp team stuff. But if we buy the view that the only thing that matters is bringing "optimal builds" so that we can all maximize our opportunity to win at all costs, thenhow many mechs do you think PGI would have sold us. Logic dictates 1. The optimal mech with an optimal build (Timberwolf maybe?).

Why have ANY other mechs than this 1 single optimal creation? IMO: Variety perhaps? Personal preference? Because people come to the game because they like the BT lore and all the different mechs, and like building and playing different things? Naaahhh. Only 1 build is all we should ever want or need right?

Have fun with that crappy game.

But that sucker would have some seriously well "balanced" weapons right? What with ALL Mechs ALL being the same Load-Out. LOL!

This place is funny...

[Lily from animove]

Jehofi, on 15 February 2016 - 07:07 AM, said:

Unless the casual is actually good and the comp. player is truly bad. You know bad like the ones that berate you for not playing meta Mechs (in Tier 4).

well yes then they would meet, but it would also mean the "competitive" player isn't really competitve, hes just someone trying to be so but failing.

Edited by Lily from animove, 15 February 2016 - 07:17 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Pjwned, on 14 February 2016 - 03:48 PM, said:

The problem I see immediately with OP's build is using an AC20 along with 2 ER LL and LRMs.

That doesn't make sense. Just because you have 1 AC20 doesn't make you a fearsome brawler when all of your other weapons are made for anything but brawling, and when you're using your other weapons at longer range while not using the AC20 (because it's too short range) then the AC20 starts to be a waste of tonnage.

AC10 or a gauss rifle would fit much better.

You have missed the point Pjwned. He is driving what he wants, with what he wants on-board and who is anyone else to tell him otherwise? You, me, or that loud mouth on Comms that died 7 minutes before the Player getting torn down, for at best, e-peen and very dubious reasons?

You play and drive what you want and don't sweat what I am driving becasue to be quite honest I could give a **** what anyone else thinks or says, unless of course you are willing to BUY me those Mechs, with RL cash that you want me to drive, and then outfit them as well.

Otherwise, all that can be said to those who disagree is "Piss Off... Please!"

[Surn]

People will start crying for atlas to get a negative lrm 20 quirk because they want their deathball meta to be the only option in this game.

[Lily from animove]

Almond Brown, on 15 February 2016 - 07:19 AM, said:

You have missed the point Pjwned. He is driving what he wants, with what he wants on-board and who is anyone else to tell him otherwise? You, me, or that loud mouth on Comms that died 7 minutes before the Player getting torn down, for at best, e-peen and very dubious reasons?

You play and drive what you want and don't sweat what I am driving becasue to be quite honest I could give a **** what anyone else thinks or says, unless of course you are willing to BUY me those Mechs, with RL cash that you want me to drive, and then outfit them as well.

Otherwise, all that can be said to those who disagree is "Piss Off... Please!"

until the moment you meet 11 othe rpeople like this getting stomped 12-0 10x in a row for not teamplaying, derping around, and doing basically nothign related to the point of the game just because "They play and drive how they want"

This idea is surely rather problematic in a team based MULTIPLAYER game, when you do what you entirely think "I could give a **** what anyone else thinks or says" Because when you keep following this mentallity to the max of 11 players doing so, well then you have a broken game concept,

Edited by Lily from animove, 15 February 2016 - 07:31 AM.

[Mystere]

Spr1ggan, on 15 February 2016 - 02:40 AM, said:

And sign up for MRBC and see how well those builds and decks do.

I think it's pretty obvious there are people who don't care about such "competitions" and would rather just play the game. Not everyone treats MWO as serious business. I say let them be.

Edited by Mystere, 15 February 2016 - 07:43 AM.

[Ultimax]

Bud Crue, on 14 February 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

Not sure I am reading this correctly, but the gist of the above translates to me only a few possible different ways:

Play the meta, or else.
Play to quirks, or else.
Play the game the way I or "OUR team" thinks you should play, or else.


So in a game, you're not allowed to have a bit of fun and try odd things? How odd.

Guy wants to bring some Lrms on an Atlas when he pugs. Maybe play more of a support role. Doing so he is affecting your team's game so detrimentally that you are all forced to "play around" his build.

I don't care if people don't play meta.

I don't even care if some goofball wants to ruin one of the most powerful brawlers in the game by putting LRMs on it - something that is objectively bad and has been proven so repeatedly.


But that Atlas better do well with its terrible choices, because if the rest of us are pushing and dying and the Atlas is almost totally unscathed still lobbing LRMs in a 100 ton assault mech with truckloads of structure quirks - then you are a leech, a parasite, a bad player the rest of us had to play around & had to make up for.


The rest of us had to carry harder, because that Atlas was "having fun" at the expense of our fun.


So again, feel free to play whatever you want. Its your mech.


If you are terrible, and your build doesn't properly contribute then expect your team mates to feel free to let you know.

Edited by Ultimax, 15 February 2016 - 07:45 AM.

[Mystere]

Lily from animove, on 15 February 2016 - 03:49 AM, said:

You surely should try to have fun in first place, but you should surely not start to be a liability to your team because you make bad builds on intention or against sense. Because rit is still kinda ruining other peoples games as well. And agive and take thing here since the game unfortunately doesn't have a real "casual group queue"

For all intents and purposes, the solo queue is the "casual" section of MWO. The grouped queues are for the more "serious" types.

[Mystere]

Kodyn, on 15 February 2016 - 05:06 AM, said:

You run sub-par builds in a game that many view as a competitive team game, you have to accept that you will get crap for it.

Obviously, my idea of a "competitive team game" is very much different from many.

[Mystere]

Sjorpha, on 15 February 2016 - 06:29 AM, said:

Casual players REALLY DO cause problems for the competitive players ...

Competitive players REALLY DO cause problems for casual players ...

There is a reason MWO has a solo queue, grouped queues, and private matches. Leave the first one to the casuals and use the rest for the "competitive" types.

Having said that, a Solaris mode just can't come soon enough.

Edited by Mystere, 15 February 2016 - 08:02 AM.

[S13gtastic]

On one hand you'll find people that just want to help you out with your build, the other will be people that will double face palm the moment they see your build.

Ultimately do what you need to do couple months from now it might change on that mech. However some comments in here have brought up valid arguments and reasons why it's a bad idea to run LRMS on an Atlas.

Long as your not running an XL in your Atlas I'm fine with what ever you do......because Atlas bro's don't let other bro's XL.

[Lily from animove]

Mystere, on 15 February 2016 - 07:46 AM, said:

For all intents and purposes, the solo queue is the "casual" section of MWO. The grouped queues are for the more "serious" types.

casual, does not include playing bad or with brain afk. if you play a game play a game and not be a troll all of your time. (surely soemtimes a funbuild is ok). But constantly derping aroudn does not belong there.

also statement is not true about solo queue = casual one. it is not intended to be the casual mode. It's just the solo mode. Thats why its called like this and not casual queue, and thats why PRS and MM also take place there.

[Lugh]

pyrocomp, on 14 February 2016 - 08:25 AM, said:

It's not the mech but the pilot that gimps the team on every siingle occasion. Just as any light pilot does not gimp the team by 40-50 tons average by not brinning a heavy.

The build is oprimal for the casual play if it suits the player who built it that way. So there might be some tweaks or misunderstanding of what's what (like with those 2xLRM10 instead of LRM20 will most probably do better even without modules) but the build is ok as long as it suits the player.

This is wrong. I've seen plenty of lrm5 lights for the lulz that totally gimp their team.

[Mystere]

Lily from animove, on 15 February 2016 - 08:14 AM, said:

casual, does not include playing bad or with brain afk. if you play a game play a game and not be a troll all of your time. (surely soemtimes a funbuild is ok). But constantly derping aroudn does not belong there.

also statement is not true about solo queue = casual one. it is not intended to be the casual mode. It's just the solo mode. Thats why its called like this and not casual queue, and thats why PRS and MM also take place there.

That may not be the original intent, but that is where the casuals congregate. And which is also why I think a Solaris mode is necessary. That would make the decision on where to go pretty obvious.

[Star Colonel Mustard Kerensky]

MeanFacedJohnny, on 14 February 2016 - 09:19 AM, said:

I definitely admit, 2 10's are better than the 20. Thanks again for that advice guy.

Run a hunchback 4-J, it does what you're trying to do, but does it better than an atlas ever will.

That's why people are giving you crap, you're using a 100 ton mech to do something a 50 ton mech can do better.

Also the fact that it apparently took you 3 years to figure out 2 lrm 10s is better than one 20 and a 5.