704 replies to this topic

[CK16]

What part of "Sold on Limited Basis" do you not get? These were not prominent among IS houses....or forces....ONLY in Clan forces either it be Clan Nova Cat or other Clans was it a common 2nd line mech! FFS man you take the lore part to the tenth degree and it makes no sense to the game!

Edited by CK16, 18 March 2016 - 03:07 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

CK16, on 18 March 2016 - 03:02 PM, said:

What do you get about "Sold on Limited Basis" don't you get? These were not prominent among IS houses....or forces....ONLY in Clan forces either it be Clan Nova Cat or other Clans was it a common 2nd line mech! FFS man you take the lore part to the tenth degree and it makes no sense to the game!

Well, the Clans you point out as it being sold directly to... Nova Cat and Wolf-in-Exile... are Inner Sphere as of 3059. And then you have all the IS houses. So sold in massive numbers to IS clans, and limited numbers to IS houses vastly trumps being sold in NO numbers to factions allied with the Clans. Just saying.

Discounting lore is a mistake on your part. Especially when you're advocating for a mech that Russ has stated clearly is not yet being included in the game almost entirely for lore reasons. PGI has played very close so far to lore, and their mech introduction model is a very fine example of that. It matters quite a bit to PGI, and affects this mech in particular quite a lot. So it might be in your interest to pay attention if you DO want the mech to eventually show up.

[Metus regem]

3059 does present a problem for PGI, it really does. Post 3059, you start seeing mixed Tech units on the IS side, when I say mixed Tech, I mean IS refits of older mechs with Clan weapons.

This leaves PGI three options I think.

1) adhere to the Lore and universe post 3059
2) keep the game stuck in the pre-3059 realm
3) go their own path and burn the Lore post 3059


Now if I had to wager on an outcome, I'd put my money on option 3. This can be seen by PGI not having FedCom in CW, a pretty big deal, as they were the power house on the IS between the third Secession Wars and the FedCom civil war.

[thehiddenedge]

Serious question, how many of you pushing for the MK. II are going to just rip the missiles out right away?


I see very few Mad Cat's with the missile pods still attached. I see very few Warhammers running PPC's


Both very iconic, both a shadow of their former selves.


The thing is: I've never seen the MK. II as iconic. If anything it just borrowed from the original's notoriety without offering anything unique. The word uninspired comes to mind.

There are so many better mechs out there that we can add.

[Metus regem]

thehiddenedge, on 18 March 2016 - 03:42 PM, said:

Serious question, how many of you pushing for the MK. II are going to just rip the missiles out right away?


I see very few Mad Cat's with the missile pods still attached. I see very few Warhammers running PPC's


Both very iconic, both a shadow of their former selves.


The thing is: I've never seen the MK. II as iconic. If anything it just borrowed from the original's notoriety without offering anything unique. The word uninspired comes to mind.

There are so many better mechs out there that we can add.

Well at least I know I'm one of the few that keeps PPC'S in the arms on my Warhammers and my Timber Wolves keep Missile racks, they wouldn't be the same other wise.... Besides, you know how you tell a male Timber Wolf from the female ones? Like deer, makes have racks.

[ScarecrowES]

Metus regem, on 18 March 2016 - 03:37 PM, said:

3059 does present a problem for PGI, it really does. Post 3059, you start seeing mixed Tech units on the IS side, when I say mixed Tech, I mean IS refits of older mechs with Clan weapons.

This leaves PGI three options I think.

1) adhere to the Lore and universe post 3059
2) keep the game stuck in the pre-3059 realm
3) go their own path and burn the Lore post 3059


Now if I had to wager on an outcome, I'd put my money on option 3. This can be seen by PGI not having FedCom in CW, a pretty big deal, as they were the power house on the IS between the third Secession Wars and the FedCom civil war.

Very possible. Though FedCom doesn't present nearly the same sorts of problems as the IS clans do. While the Federated Commonwealth is technically one massive faction, it still has separate territory, ruling parties, etc. It's possible it could still operate as both Davion and Steiner even in a 3060's game environment, if done right.

I tried to stay out of the tech state in 3059, because that's even more complicated than IS/Clan divisions. Pure Clans get access to upgraded Clan tech, and pure IS gets upgraded IS tech. But those kinda in the middle, like the IS Clans and their allies... kinda a little of both. Nova Cat is interesting because it becomes a part of another faction... Kurita. It doesn't occupy its own space, and fights enemies on behalf of the DCMS.

Wolf-in-Exile is a more interesting problem. As soon as they get to the Sphere, they just start building and building. They get a whole big chunk of the map between Steiner (who they're allied with) and Clan space and form the Arc-Royal Defense Cordon with the Kell Hounds. A former Clan and a Merc Unit own a pretty good-sized chunk of the map, and in that chunk they start building unique mechs not found anywhere else. Clan tech and IS tech. Mechs and Omnis in both tech bases. It's awesomely complicated.

I think in a post 3058 world, tech lines become too complex to just divide in two. PGI will probably have no choice but to open up all tech to everybody, and that's probably fine. It also lets PGI worry a lot less about trying to balance Clan tech and IS tech against each other, and lets them easily introduce new tech without having to worry about whether or not it gives one faction too much power.

[Metus regem]

ScarecrowES, on 18 March 2016 - 03:52 PM, said:

Very possible. Though FedCom doesn't present nearly the same sorts of problems as the IS clans do. While the Federated Commonwealth is technically one massive faction, it still has separate territory, ruling parties, etc. It's possible it could still operate as both Davion and Steiner even in a 3060's game environment, if done right.

I tried to stay out of the tech state in 3059, because that's even more complicated than IS/Clan divisions. Pure Clans get access to upgraded Clan tech, and pure IS gets upgraded IS tech. But those kinda in the middle, like the IS Clans and their allies... kinda a little of both. Nova Cat is interesting because it becomes a part of another faction... Kurita. It doesn't occupy its own space, and fights enemies on behalf of the DCMS.

Wolf-in-Exile is a more interesting problem. As soon as they get to the Sphere, they just start building and building. They get a whole big chunk of the map between Steiner (who they're allied with) and Clan space and form the Arc-Royal Defense Cordon with the Kell Hounds. A former Clan and a Merc Unit own a pretty good-sized chunk of the map, and in that chunk they start building unique mechs not found anywhere else. Clan tech and IS tech. Mechs and Omnis in both tech bases. It's awesomely complicated.

I think in a post 3058 world, tech lines become too complex to just divide in two. PGI will probably have no choice but to open up all tech to everybody, and that's probably fine. It also lets PGI worry a lot less about trying to balance Clan tech and IS tech against each other, and lets them easily introduce new tech without having to worry about whether or not it gives one faction too much power.

And that is what makes option 1 that I listed a possibility.

How ever by not including FedCom, PGI has created their own unique universe for MWO, that throws the shadows of speculation onto everything not announced yet. Everything from my beloved Coyot, an extinct Mech in the core universe, to the Mad Cat Mk II, a Mech of questionable alignment.

[ScarecrowES]

Metus regem, on 18 March 2016 - 04:04 PM, said:

And that is what makes option 1 that I listed a possibility.

How ever by not including FedCom, PGI has created their own unique universe for MWO, that throws the shadows of speculation onto everything not announced yet. Everything from my beloved Coyot, an extinct Mech in the core universe, to the Mad Cat Mk II, a Mech of questionable alignment.

Well, still with FedCom... according to Sarna, formal creation didn't occur until 3055, after the currwnt timeline, though both Houses had long operated together anyway. And the Lyrans technically seceded in 3057, recreating a seperate Lyrans State again.

If we jump from 3053 to 3059, we can largely ignore the two years where the two houses acted as one faction, and just rename the Lyran Commonwealth as the Lyran Alliance and the Federated Suns as the Federated Commonwealth. We could introduce the Arc-Royal defense cordon as a wholly separate space from Steiner a bit early so the lore doesnt get confused about the formal status of those planets from year to year. AND Nova Cat and Ghost Bear would both more or less be settled in to their final IS holdings. At that point, the map stays basically the same from 3059 through the FedCom Civil war and into the Jihad. Minor factions that probably wouldn't be inteoduced anyway could probably be largely ignored.

And, given everything that happens from 3059 to 3067, you've got a lot of wars and conflicts that can play out. Lots of tech and mechs introduced into a galaxy state that's actually ready to receive them. Hell, the best parts of the clan/is conflicts happen in Bulldog.

The timeline jump makes so much sense that I would be shocked if PGI hasnt thought of doing just that. It would open up a whole slew of possibilities to them.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 18 March 2016 - 04:34 PM.

[CK16]

well they could keep CW like it is with invasion routes for the Clans. OR add their territory they would have had post Revival....They can't get rid of a faction though at this point. That would piss off SO many ppl if they took out Smoke Jag Lore or other wise...As for Nova Cat they would be on their own probably on the edge of Kurita and Clans...They would be a Clan though IMO for all it would be worth...Keep in mind even at this time Clans can attack each other, they just do not.

Edited by CK16, 18 March 2016 - 04:42 PM.

[CK16]

Or to add to that maybe add 4 more Clans each sharing space with another

-Jade Falcon and Diamond Shark
-Wolf and Hells Horses
-Ghost Bear and Snow Raven
-Smoke Jaguar and Nova Cat

Yes I know about how Smoke Jag and Nova Cat hated each other BUT they did share invasion lane...It would make some sense and work imo well to get add 4 more popular clans.

[Imperius]

thehiddenedge, on 18 March 2016 - 03:42 PM, said:

Serious question, how many of you pushing for the MK. II are going to just rip the missiles out right away?


I see very few Mad Cat's with the missile pods still attached. I see very few Warhammers running PPC's


Both very iconic, both a shadow of their former selves.


The thing is: I've never seen the MK. II as iconic. If anything it just borrowed from the original's notoriety without offering anything unique. The word uninspired comes to mind.

There are so many better mechs out there that we can add.

I plan on 2 Gauss, 2 SRM 6's with Artemis, and 4 Lasers (not sure what size) but that is my general build I would use for CW. Since it will be fast I could brawl and snipe when needed. Of course if they give us a variant with 4 ballistic hard points I'll make a CW brawler for sure with the second one that I would use in the drop deck.

[ScarecrowES]

CK16, on 18 March 2016 - 04:39 PM, said:

well they could keep CW like it is with invasion routes for the Clans. OR add their territory they would have had post Revival....They can't get rid of a faction though at this point. That would piss off SO many ppl if they took out Smoke Jag Lore or other wise...As for Nova Cat they would be on their own probably on the edge of Kurita and Clans...They would be a Clan though IMO for all it would be worth...Keep in mind even at this time Clans can attack each other, they just do not.

I don't know that many people playing Jag right now would care so much if the clan got wiped out, which really it only formally does in 3060. I think those folks that know the lore will know CSJ is going away. And many others are only CSJ because they can't be other related clans, including Nova Cat, which takes a bunch of its territory when they finally join the Invasion. The rest would readily find a home somewhere else, I'm sure.

BUT... if we go to 3059, that's not a concern. CSJ is still on the map. And if the timeline moves forward from there, it's easy to replace their icon with that of another Clan. Wolf just changes places. As does Ghost Bear. Though I'm not sure what we'll see done with them. They go off and do their own thing. They go full Warden. And even though the don't officially leave the Clans like Wolf and Nova Cat do, they refuse to fight on behalf of the Clans in Operation Bulldog and the Great Refusal. They basically absorb FRR and go to war with Kurita/Nova Cat later on. So they're... a loose cannon... which I think is incredibly cool (though hard to figure in MWO).

For the Clans, they would get more starting territory, which makes a LOT more sense for Faction Warfare. Trying to break out from the Homeworlds and march to Terra, as CW is set up for now, only makes sense if the Clans get their lore-level technological superiority. Which they haven't. So how can we really expect them to be able to march to Terra on a level playing field unless players game the system and dump massive numbers of players into one faction as we saw in Beta 2? Giving them their 3059 territory lets them start about halfway to Terra anyway, and we'd have none of these "invasion route" problems we currently have.

Like with Wolf-in-Exile and the ARDC, it'd probably be fine to introduce Nova Cat with their own space between CSJ and Kurita as sort of a timeline compromise. They had their own territory as a Clan in 3058 before joining the IS and being absorbed by Kurita in 3059. Even though they were fully integrated into the DCMS, they still retained a measure of autonomy within Kurita space and even governed their own prefecture. I don't think even the most avid lore-freaks would argue against letting them keep their territory separate... but they'd have to be aligned with the Inner Sphere regardless.

I mean, realistically, the state of the galaxy in 3059 is just MUCH better for MWO than 3050 is. It solves so many of PGI's current problems with balance, tech, and building a fun Faction Warfare system. And it's much easier to introduce new things like tech and mechs without those causing balance problems down the line.

I mean, look at it this way... in 3059, you could reasonably introduce the MkII as an Inner Sphere mech AND give it the intended heavy lasers from 3059 Clan tech, and it wouldn't cause even a ripple of inbalance in FW because we'd probably have to let both sides of the conflict use it - and, bonus, you'd be pretty much fully in-line with lore. So many problems solved in one change to the map.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 18 March 2016 - 05:14 PM.

[CK16]

I would running my MC-MK-II with its stock loadout most likely

I would run the MC-Mk-II-2 with twin Gauss, 2 Med's Maybe med pulse or ER large and LRM-15's

The MC-Mk-II-4 Would be tricky with all weapons in the arms and missile racks kinda seems like the not stellar of the bunch.

MC-Mk-II-6 Lazor Sniper

-MC-Mk-II-BS (if they gow ith the Beat stick) DAKA DAKA!

[CK16]

Also STOP the Mk.II would not be a IS mech same as for teh Nova Cat....They would be Clan mechs and Clan mechs ONLY dude serious...They are not going to give a CLAN mech with CLAN tech to the IS to run in CW NOT gonna happen...

[Imperius]

ScarecrowES, on 18 March 2016 - 05:07 PM, said:

I don't know that many people playing Jag right now would care so much if the clan got wiped out, which really it only formally does in 3060. I think those folks that know the lore will know CSJ is going away. And many others are only CSJ because they can't be other related clans, including Nova Cat, which takes a bunch of its territory when they finally join the Invasion. The rest would readily find a home somewhere else, I'm sure.

BUT... if we go to 3059, that's not a concern. CSJ is still on the map. And if the timeline moves forward from there, it's easy to replace their icon with that of another Clan. Wolf just changes places. As does Ghost Bear. Though I'm not sure what we'll see done with them. They go off and do their own thing. They go full Warden. And even though the don't officially leave the Clans like Wolf and Nova Cat do, they refuse to fight on behalf of the Clans in Operation Bulldog and the Great Refusal. They basically absorb FRR and go to war with Kurita/Nova Cat later on. So they're... a loose cannon... which I think is incredibly cool (though hard to figure in MWO).

For the Clans, they would get more starting territory, which makes a LOT more sense for Faction Warfare. Trying to break out from the Homeworlds and march to Terra, as CW is set up for now, only makes sense if the Clans get their lore-level technological superiority. Which they haven't. So how can we really expect them to be able to march to Terra on a level playing field unless players game the system and dump massive numbers of players into one faction as we saw in Beta 2? Giving them their 3059 territory lets them start about halfway to Terra anyway, and we'd have none of these "invasion route" problems we currently have.

Like with Wolf-in-Exile and the ARDC, it'd probably be fine to introduce Nova Cat with their own space between CSJ and Kurita as sort of a timeline compromise. They had their own territory as a Clan in 3058 before joining the IS and being absorbed by Kurita in 3059. Even though they were fully integrated into the DCMS, they still retained a measure of autonomy within Kurita space and even governed their own prefecture. I don't think even the most avid lore-freaks would argue against letting them keep their territory separate... but they'd have to be aligned with the Inner Sphere regardless.

I mean, realistically, the state of the galaxy in 3059 is just MUCH better for MWO than 3050 is. It solves so many of PGI's current problems with balance, tech, and building a fun Faction Warfare system. And it's much easier to introduce new things like tech and mechs without those causing balance problems down the line.

I mean, look at it this way... in 3059, you could reasonably introduce the MkII as an Inner Sphere mech AND give it the intended heavy lasers from 3059 Clan tech, and it wouldn't cause even a ripple of inbalance in FW because we'd probably have to let both sides of the conflict use it - and, bonus, you'd be pretty much fully in-line with lore. So many problems solved in one change to the map.

DUDE... CW is going to be stuck in 3051-3053 till the end of this games life most likely. Mechs will not be limited by the timeline because honestly they do not effect anything. They are also mostly out of good clan mechs to offer at this point. MWO's main revenue is mech packs... that simple! They will not stop trying to make money due to lore. The main population (including myself) plays pretty much only pug group play (or solo pug if you don't have friends, or just roll that way) Again it doesn't effect anything. The biggest point that was made clear is there is no tech 2 coming anytime soon, but a mech like the Mad Cat MK II (that is on the cusp) can, and most likely will, make it's debut soon with current tech.

IF IT IS MADE BY A CLAN IT IS A CLAN MECH!

MWO doesn't even faction/clan lock mechs anyway so quit trying to stir the pot.

THE MAD CAT MK II will come!

Edited by Imperius, 18 March 2016 - 05:37 PM.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Imperius, on 15 February 2016 - 10:06 AM, said:

Google BATTLETECH and you'll see a bunch of Timberwolves, Google mechwarrior and you see both, now since the Mad Cat MK II is a buffed Timberwolf and the Timberwolf is indisputably an icon, the MK II is an icon by association.

I googled "Battletech" in google image search and 3 of the first 8 results were of a Madcat mK_II, the rest were timber wolves and unseen.

Yeah, I'd say its iconic (post clan invasion) of which many of the people arguing against it were mostly 3025 and pre-clan Invasion TT enthusiasts.

So yes, in Mechwarrior it is iconic. The Battletech old guard will always disagree b/c its not oldschool Battletech. Surprise.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

ilKhan_OrHan, on 20 February 2016 - 11:11 AM, said:

You neglected to mention Blood Asp is an omni-mech which the B variant has a 4E LT omnipod which fits nicely in the meta. Similar to the Timberwolf A 3E LT omnipod but better. You didn't note the missile hardpoints on either mech as well.

I'm not going to talk to someone using ad hominem attacks, I already disproved everything you are using as evidence to support your position.

/thread

You're entire MO appears to be ad hominem... albeit very passively.

Edited by 80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie, 18 March 2016 - 05:31 PM.

[pbiggz]

ScarecrowES, on 18 March 2016 - 05:07 PM, said:

I don't know that many people playing Jag right now would care so much if the clan got wiped out, which really it only formally does in 3060. I think those folks that know the lore will know CSJ is going away. And many others are only CSJ because they can't be other related clans, including Nova Cat, which takes a bunch of its territory when they finally join the Invasion. The rest would readily find a home somewhere else, I'm sure.

BUT... if we go to 3059, that's not a concern. CSJ is still on the map. And if the timeline moves forward from there, it's easy to replace their icon with that of another Clan. Wolf just changes places. As does Ghost Bear. Though I'm not sure what we'll see done with them. They go off and do their own thing. They go full Warden. And even though the don't officially leave the Clans like Wolf and Nova Cat do, they refuse to fight on behalf of the Clans in Operation Bulldog and the Great Refusal. They basically absorb FRR and go to war with Kurita/Nova Cat later on. So they're... a loose cannon... which I think is incredibly cool (though hard to figure in MWO).

For the Clans, they would get more starting territory, which makes a LOT more sense for Faction Warfare. Trying to break out from the Homeworlds and march to Terra, as CW is set up for now, only makes sense if the Clans get their lore-level technological superiority. Which they haven't. So how can we really expect them to be able to march to Terra on a level playing field unless players game the system and dump massive numbers of players into one faction as we saw in Beta 2? Giving them their 3059 territory lets them start about halfway to Terra anyway, and we'd have none of these "invasion route" problems we currently have.

Like with Wolf-in-Exile and the ARDC, it'd probably be fine to introduce Nova Cat with their own space between CSJ and Kurita as sort of a timeline compromise. They had their own territory as a Clan in 3058 before joining the IS and being absorbed by Kurita in 3059. Even though they were fully integrated into the DCMS, they still retained a measure of autonomy within Kurita space and even governed their own prefecture. I don't think even the most avid lore-freaks would argue against letting them keep their territory separate... but they'd have to be aligned with the Inner Sphere regardless.

I mean, realistically, the state of the galaxy in 3059 is just MUCH better for MWO than 3050 is. It solves so many of PGI's current problems with balance, tech, and building a fun Faction Warfare system. And it's much easier to introduce new things like tech and mechs without those causing balance problems down the line.

I mean, look at it this way... in 3059, you could reasonably introduce the MkII as an Inner Sphere mech AND give it the intended heavy lasers from 3059 Clan tech, and it wouldn't cause even a ripple of inbalance in FW because we'd probably have to let both sides of the conflict use it - and, bonus, you'd be pretty much fully in-line with lore. So many problems solved in one change to the map.

ITS NOT A ******* IS MECH GET OVER IT

[Archangel.84]

Well, just tried the same thing myself (googling "Battletech") and after the first 50 results I stopped looking. No Mk.II. A Mk.IV though. Several Timber Wolves, lots of Shimmering Sword art, HBS Concept art for their new game. Sooo not the best metric for assigning "iconic" status since different people get different results.

CK16, on 18 March 2016 - 04:53 PM, said:

Or to add to that maybe add 4 more Clans each sharing space with another

-Jade Falcon and Diamond Shark
-Wolf and Hells Horses
-Ghost Bear and Snow Raven
-Smoke Jaguar and Nova Cat

Steel Vipers should be with the Falcons, they fought a war over their shared invasion corridor. Diamond Sharks never were allowed to establish an invasion corridor (they got to fight for, and took, one world from the Bears); Wolf and Ghost Bears had theirs to themselves pretty much. The Snow Ravens didn't really get involved until quite a bit later. But I would totally love to at least see Diamond Shark (and Nova Cat and Steel Viper) swag!

Edited by Archangel.84, 18 March 2016 - 05:48 PM.

[CK16]

I was also thinking of common alliences I know Snow Raven and Bears were pretty close right? Just Saying if they were going to create a 2 Clan factions like that for Falcons and Smoke Jag, Wolf and Bears would need a battle buddy as well IF they went that way.

They could just very well create more faction space and allow for CW to allocate Space to Clans now. The issue though is just like if they remove Smoke Jag would they have to remove FRR? I mean they would have a very small space now on the map then.