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Mad Cat Mk Ii, The Big Cat (Or Big Alpha Wolf?). `mech Discussion

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#221 Imperius

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 06:08 AM

View PostLastKhan, on 19 March 2016 - 05:57 AM, said:


The rapture is comming! wait it didnt happen? next month! then the month after that!


You haven't seen "the rapture" yet, you might get to to see it though who knows. Depends on my mood at the time of the mech announcement and what mech gets announced, the last time I flew off the handle was when the position to adding groups changed to a no after a promised yes. That was a drastic flip flop.

I doubt I'll fly off the handle though... It just means you get more Mad Cat MK threads. I won't stop till it comes that I'll promise you.

#222 Metus regem

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 06:12 AM

View PostImperius, on 19 March 2016 - 06:08 AM, said:


You haven't seen "the rapture" yet, you might get to to see it though who knows. Depends on my mood at the time of the mech announcement and what mech gets announced, the last time I flew off the handle was when the position to adding groups changed to a no after a promised yes. That was a drastic flip flop.

I doubt I'll fly off the handle though... It just means you get more Mad Cat MK threads. I won't stop till it comes that I'll promise you.


I'd say the amount of alcohol you had consumed prior to posting would have an effect to how far off the rails you'd go as well....

#223 Imperius

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 06:18 AM

View PostMetus regem, on 19 March 2016 - 06:12 AM, said:


I'd say the amount of alcohol you had consumed prior to posting would have an effect to how far off the rails you'd go as well....


For sure, if I've got a bottle of jack in me, I'll probably get banned.

#224 80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 09:57 AM

So, Still here

Still posting to bump this thread.

#MadCatmk_II2016

#225 CK16

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 10:24 AM

I shouldn't poke this further but...

This is off the Mad Cat Mk.II Enhanced though yes almost a different mech it should and does refer to the previous design. It is like the Chieftain Mk.I to the Chieftain Mk.5 or of the like. Same chassis jsut improved protection and new weapon systems/FCS. The Mad Cat Mk.II was not an IS mech or designed for IS intentions it was meant for the Clans the name just well they say one thing but it seems a tradition of all clans if they made a 2nd or 3rd or 4th variant to keep the IS name for reasons not just for sales.

There is a section about just this deployment...If you are going to pull crazy stuff out out of thin air to come up with a theroy for it being IS so will I for being clan.....Looks to me much more in favor of the Clans here and not selling the IS otherwise they would have mentioned it...

Spoiler


Posted Image

Edited by CK16, 19 March 2016 - 10:46 AM.


#226 ScarecrowES

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 11:40 AM

View PostCK16, on 19 March 2016 - 10:24 AM, said:

I shouldn't poke this further but...

This is off the Mad Cat Mk.II Enhanced though yes almost a different mech it should and does refer to the previous design. It is like the Chieftain Mk.I to the Chieftain Mk.5 or of the like. Same chassis jsut improved protection and new weapon systems/FCS. The Mad Cat Mk.II was not an IS mech or designed for IS intentions it was meant for the Clans the name just well they say one thing but it seems a tradition of all clans if they made a 2nd or 3rd or 4th variant to keep the IS name for reasons not just for sales.

There is a section about just this deployment...If you are going to pull crazy stuff out out of thin air to come up with a theroy for it being IS so will I for being clan.....Looks to me much more in favor of the Clans here and not selling the IS otherwise they would have mentioned it...


Alright, fine... THIN AIR... So you literally provide a reference that - once again - says in black and white INNER SPHERE. Nova Cat and Wolf-in-Exile are Inner Sphere as of 3059. The Mad Cat MkII was officially released in 3066. I'm really not sure where you're having trouble with this.

The TRO in which it is released also says Inner Sphere. Clan tech, certainly, but Inner Sphere by ownership - as, just as in the reference you provided here, every faction listed as having procured it belong to the Inner Sphere.

And guess what? The official Battletech Master Unit List shows that it is not an available mech to any of the factions that would qualify as "Clans" in MWO during the time of the mech's release in the FedCom Civil War era (3062-3067). That is, of course, with the exception of Clan Diamond Shark - who, as we know, manufactured the mech but never used it in battle. Hell, as of the time of the release of the MkII Enhanced that you're showing, even Diamond Shark left the Clans for the Inner Sphere. Any idea why? Well, in large part because the other Clans were pissed that they were selling clan-tech mechs to the Inner Sphere, and all their friendly Clan allies had already joined the IS.

Jade Falcon isn't allowed to have it. Neither can Wolf (reformed). Or any of the other Clans that do not join the Inner Sphere prior to the FedCom era. The game rules upon which MWO is based, and which it follows more closely than any previous Mechwarrior game, say that the mech is NOT available to any factions NOT aligned with the Inner Sphere during the FedCom Civil War Era. Lore explains why this is so.

So... can you guess in which factions' available mech lists the MkII DOES show up? Nova Cat, FedCom, Draconis - about a half dozen Inner Sphere factions. Again, the game system tells you what you can have, and the lore tells you why.

The MkII as an Inner Sphere mech is canon. Period. There is NO arguing this.

Really... what in all this is not clear? This is no silly theory that I'm just coming up with all on my own. You don't like it? Blame FASA Corp and Catalyst Game Labs. They're the ones who determine which mechs can be used by whom. At this point, there is really no excuse not to understand this.

MkII is Inner Sphere because the source material says very clearly that it is so. What you WANT is irrelevant. PGI can choose whether or not it wants to follow the source material, of course -and how literally they want to do that - but it does not CHANGE the source material. PGI can choose to break lore and ignore source by releasing the MkII as a Clan mech because it uses Clan tech. Or they can choose to follow lore and make adjustments to the game so they can release post 3058 mechs to their proper factions, regardless of tech base. Or they can choose not to open this huge can of worms - as Russ has hinted it is - and NOT release mechs post 3058 at all. The MkII is far from the only mech that presents the problem of cross tech/faction alignment. It's totally up to them.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 19 March 2016 - 11:47 AM.


#227 CK16

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 11:52 AM

You have no proof, all you state is your opinion on the matter. It says MORE clearly that CLAN Nova Cat and Diamond Shark used them. You saying they are an IS faction is not the way the game would see and IS faction. IS Faction = Original houses. The alliances made are futile to argue with here. You won't see Nova Cat's dropping with Kurita units EVER! They will have their space just as clans do now and be a Clan unit using clan tech....

By your arugment no other clan but Wolf should be able to drop Timberwolfs....

Or Direwolfs only belong to Wolf and Smoke Jaguar cause the only way for others to get the mech was through trial's or gifts/trading....

Seriously I posted so much more evidence proving its clan yet you take 2 words in reference to location NOT faction....You seriously can not be serious in these discussion you nit pick a FEW details that are exceptions to the rule NOT the rule of how the mech fall. Its about the tech and the Mad Cat Mk.II isn't even MIXED tech!

Are you going to tell me that when that advance the time line that the Ghost Bear's should be an Inner-sphere faction able to drop with IS houses then to attack other clans? Or That if ever Nova cat can drop with others just cause they were allied in Lore that Houses should get Clan mechs then like the Nova Cat like you state? HELL F'ING NO.

Seriouloy Scarecrow GO away and dont return. Bring this argument OVER again is a total stupid move on your part and makes you look like an idiot YES I said it I am past debating with you on this cause you are WRONG in this matter. I posted source afet source that is much more factual then you can post you have no concrete evidence....The argument for it being clan is solid as a 2x4 board while yours is tissue paper able to poke holes in it over and over AND OVER AGAIN its weak at best...

SHUT UP and SIT DOWN or go away....if you want to debate this make a full post, I bet no one agree's with you on it....
Every game has had the Mk.II for the clans this will be no different. Seriously I am sick of your sh!t here Scarecrow, we have told you over and over and over and OVER again you are wrong yet you try to say your OPINION is fact.....

Get over your self and stop trying to change what is fact...Its a CLAN mech end of this ******* discussion......

You happy? You got me all pissed off now cause of your complete dis-regard for the major facts.....Go away now

Edited by CK16, 19 March 2016 - 11:55 AM.


#228 Imperius

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 12:04 PM

Thanks for consistent bumping of the thread Scarecrow!

#229 ScarecrowES

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 12:06 PM

View PostCK16, on 19 March 2016 - 11:52 AM, said:

You have no proof, all you state is your opinion on the matter.


Good effing lord. What more proof do you need than the effing source material? What proof can be greater than the TROs, the source books, the official Battletech Master Unit List?

At this point, you're just trolling. Or are THAT dumb. I'm not sure which. I can provide you with every reference in the world, but I obviously cannot understand it FOR you. You're going to have to poke that hamster in your head and get the wheel rolling for yourself.

Every reference you posts TELLS you the mech is Inner Sphere. It says so in black and white. And yet you say I am ignoring facts. Maybe you ought to look again and really try to understand what you're looking at.

View PostImperius, on 19 March 2016 - 12:04 PM, said:

Thanks for consistent bumping of the thread Scarecrow!


You're welcome buddy. Rest assured, you'll get that MkII some day. Though... knowing the release schedule for the upcoming year, you HAVE to know it's not coming until at least 2017, right? I mean, that's pretty clear at this point, isn't it?

#230 pbiggz

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 12:33 PM

View PostScarecrowES, on 19 March 2016 - 12:06 PM, said:


Good effing lord. What more proof do you need than the effing source material? What proof can be greater than the TROs, the source books, the official Battletech Master Unit List?

At this point, you're just trolling. Or are THAT dumb. I'm not sure which. I can provide you with every reference in the world, but I obviously cannot understand it FOR you. You're going to have to poke that hamster in your head and get the wheel rolling for yourself.

Every reference you posts TELLS you the mech is Inner Sphere. It says so in black and white. And yet you say I am ignoring facts. Maybe you ought to look again and really try to understand what you're looking at.



You're welcome buddy. Rest assured, you'll get that MkII some day. Though... knowing the release schedule for the upcoming year, you HAVE to know it's not coming until at least 2017, right? I mean, that's pretty clear at this point, isn't it?


Its a clan mech, piloted by clanners. Some of those clanners aligned with the inner sphere, but clanners they were, and your critical thinking skills are shaky at best, you've made this clear to everyone.

CW will always be Clan vs IS, so the clan tech, whether piloted by clanners who fought with the sphere or against them, will only be available to clanners in MWO.

Phase 3 is all CW will ever be. This you can neither deny nor debate, though im sure you'll try when you start talking about how "i make all your points" even when I contradicted every one of them, but again, critical thinking skills. You have none.

Edited by pbiggz, 19 March 2016 - 12:35 PM.


#231 CK16

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 12:58 PM

Posted Image

How does this out weight your arguments? Sure Wolf, Jade Falcon, Ice Hellion, and Steel Viper bought none...to be contradicted by the comment of all field them through various trials. Also they never said Ghost Bear did or did not purchase them that is unknown and could be writen in. It does follow what Ghost Bears look for in a mech some one, fast and fire power....you can not claim they don't have them either their is no mention for either in favor or against....so yea my point is mute but so is yours for Ghost Bear's....

Clan Nova Cat if ever added would use only Clan mechs aff? Why would they use IS house mechs I.E Atlas, Thunderbolt, Cicada's ect. Would they be the only faction to use only the Nova Cat and Mad Cat Mk.II in CW? No...Just as Clan Wolf (AS I mentioned above!) only fielded the Timberwolf in great numbers?

You have no proof that the IS forces had significant numbers to warrant it an IS mech....there is far more evidence to show that Clans fielded them more.

#232 Archangel.84

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 12:59 PM

Really? Ever? Says who? (Re: CW3)

View PostImperius, on 18 March 2016 - 07:53 PM, said:

Good thing the lore has nothing to do with mechs being sold or piloted in MWO...


Aww, isn't that nice.

View PostRestosIII, on 18 March 2016 - 11:06 PM, said:

I couldn't give a toss about the Mad Cat Mkii, but if it being added would give me the option to have Clan Diamond Shark camo? Well, let me just say you'd be putting me in a really tough spot.


I explicitly don't like the Mk.II, but I agree.

View PostCK16, on 19 March 2016 - 11:52 AM, said:

Are you going to tell me that when that advance the time line that the Ghost Bear's should be an Inner-sphere faction able to drop with IS houses then to attack other clans? Or That if ever Nova cat can drop with others just cause they were allied in Lore that Houses should get Clan mechs then like the Nova Cat like you state? HELL F'ING NO.


Yes? Why not, considering they merged with Rasalhague? Worth noting though the only time they explicitly dropped with the Great Houses was the Jihad, and that was an "all hands on deck" thing. But why not?

View PostCK16, on 18 March 2016 - 10:41 PM, said:

I want this mech cause it was the Mech I attached my self to when I was young and was my first taste of Battletech and Mechwarrior? I liked it in MW4 the layout, the loadout, the form? Sorry geez cause that is something SO terrible to have for a mech! Do we know anyone others on this forum who have an obsession with mechs because they were from their first games or TT days?

I can say HEY I WANT THIS MECH BECAUSE ITS COOL sure....But..


Nah, that really is good enough reason and the best one, like the Unseen for an earlier generation. You guys will get it at some point. Posted Image

Edited by Archangel.84, 19 March 2016 - 01:02 PM.


#233 ScarecrowES

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 01:02 PM

View Postpbiggz, on 19 March 2016 - 12:33 PM, said:


Its a clan mech, piloted by clanners. Some of those clanners aligned with the inner sphere, but clanners they were, and your critical thinking skills are shaky at best, you've made this clear to everyone.

CW will always be Clan vs IS, so the clan tech, whether piloted by clanners who fought with the sphere or against them, will only be available to clanners in MWO.

Phase 3 is all CW will ever be. This you can neither deny nor debate, though im sure you'll try when you start talking about how "i make all your points" even when I contradicted every one of them, but again, critical thinking skills. You have none.


Ahem... so since you're actually using a degree of logic, I'm happy to engage.

First, we don't know that phase 3 is all CW will ever be. In fact, to say that is silly, as PGIs current plan is to support the game for another 5+ years. None of the whales that support this game will continue to play and pay if the game stays as it is. Simple fact. If the game stays in the same state for even another 2 years, it will die.

Moreover, our available mech selections in the current timeline are running thin. There are probably about a dozen mechs on the IS and Clan tech lines in the current timeline that players can reasonably agree on being in the game, and only about 50% of those are popular enough to sell well. Reasonably, PGI has about 2 years left of solid mech releases that will work in the current state of the game - using existing tech and working within existing faction lines. PGI has to sell mechs to make money to feed the game - so it's fast coming to a point where PGI will have no choice but to deal with the tech and faction changes in a post 3059 galaxy if they hope to continue their mech revenue stream. This isn't speculation... it's a certainty. There literally are not enough "easy" mechs to continue selling.

The MkII hightlights the problem with going outside the current timeline. It doesn't fit neatly into the game. We can say right now that MWO divides mechs by tech type, but that's not really true in the purest sense. It just so happens that in the early Clan Invasion, faction availability for tech was very neat. Clans were new, so only Clans had clan tech. Clans actually had IS tech too, but for MWO we don't let them use it, because IS mechs and tech originated in IS factions, so that goes into their toybox. Faction availability is still the factor upon which the lines are determined, not tech base... just as it is in the tabletop game.

And this works for MWO as long as we stay on THIS side of 3058. Lines are neat. But starting in 3058, they're not anymore. Factions realign in such a way that factions with native clan tech join the Inner Sphere and start fighting against the Clans. MWO draws as clear a line as the tabletop does about whose side which factions are on in the Clan/IS war. If you're on one side of the line, you're IS. If you're on the other side, you're Clan. As of 3059, Nova Cat and Wolf moved across the line and are now IS.

This is where the problems for MWO start. Lore dictates which factions can use which mechs, and every mech released so far has been done in accordance with lore. Lore dictates that mechs like the Nova Cat, Arctic Wolf, Mad Cat MkII, etc, get released to factions aligned with the Inner Sphere. But so far, in MWO, there are no mechs on either side that use tech from the other. But there's never been a case yet where a mech using one kind of tech was native to factions on the other side. But look at the game. There is literally nothing in MWO that prevents mechs with clan tech from being added to the Inner Sphere roster, is there?

MWOs build systems support proper build formats regardless of tech type, right? Battlemechs, omnis... clan, IS. And faction alignment for a mech is not something determined by some sweeping code that causes the game to examine all factors and make a determination. It's determined by a few letters in a pure-text document somewhere in game files. PGI could assign the MKII to the IS in the game right now, and it would function perfectly within the game system. Even in CW. The game doesn't care what tech each mech is using, only what faction it is assigned to - Clan or Inner Sphere.

So it really is up to how PGI wants to deal with the lore.

#234 CK16

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 01:08 PM

-Edit: miss read that last part-

Edited by CK16, 19 March 2016 - 01:17 PM.


#235 Archangel.84

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 01:14 PM

Scarecrow, your entire theory rests on this idea of "IS aligned" and "Clan aligned" factions which, for all you write about "post 3058" (and with the explicit exception of Operation Bulldog/Task Force Serpent and the Great Refusal) you seem to be conveniently ignoring that these grand alliances don't really mean anything. Just ask the St. Ives Compact.

Tech base is what matters and in terms of production (not gifts, or salvage, or other one-off occasions) the Nova Cats still make Clan mechs and the Combine still makes Inner Sphere mechs. That's how it will be if the Nova Cat ever appears (the mech or the faction) - they'll be Clan/usable by Clans. Because there's nothing besides player choices saying IS factions can't attack each other (Liao and Marik have no choice!), or Clan factions can't attack each other.

View PostCK16, on 19 March 2016 - 01:08 PM, said:

...since I want a mech I enjoyed in another game that it makes it less worthy then those unseen or other random mechs people find that 80% of the community don't know about or probably care for its lore...


Yes. And that's why I've come around to not having a problem with it showing up in time even if I personally don't like it.

View PostCK16, on 19 March 2016 - 01:08 PM, said:

Just cause its call the Mad Cat Mk.II doesn't mean its a lame, lazy, or redundant design.


Well, agree to disagree. Posted Image

Edited by Archangel.84, 19 March 2016 - 01:21 PM.


#236 CK16

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 01:18 PM

Sorry Archangle, miss read that last part a bit (blame someone else for me being in a salty mood and on the warpath to be right here)

#237 ScarecrowES

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 01:29 PM

View PostArchangel.84, on 19 March 2016 - 01:14 PM, said:

Tech base is what matters and in terms of production (not gifts, or salvage, or other one-off occasions) the Nova Cats still make Clan mechs and the Combine still makes Inner Sphere mechs. That's how it will be if the Nova Cat ever appears (the mech or the faction) - they'll be Clan/usable by Clans. Because there's nothing besides player choices saying IS factions can't attack each other (Liao and Marik have no choice!), or Clan factions can't attack each other.


Except you're not correct in that IS factions only make IS tech and Clans only make Clan tech. This ignores a whole slew of mechs in the post 3058 time period, including retrofits.

And again, it's not a theory, it's source. Why do people keep saying that. It's my fault you guys don't understand how Battletech works and keep saying tech lines matter. Tech lines don't define what units get aligned to which factions in Battletech. Never has. And MWO follows Battletech rules.

#238 LastKhan

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 01:54 PM

MK2 was Designed by the clans so therefore its indeed a clan mech. Says it in the TRO, says it in Sarna, and im sure Jordan Weisman would say the same. By 3066 era yeah by that time there was already mix tech and clan mechs being used by the IS and vice versa and i think im homing in on the issue. Both the IS and clans use it but it might be unknown for sure if PGI would implement it for both uses or just for the clans.

Edited by LastKhan, 19 March 2016 - 01:55 PM.


#239 ScarecrowES

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 01:55 PM

View PostCK16, on 19 March 2016 - 12:58 PM, said:

Posted Image

How does this out weight your arguments? Sure Wolf, Jade Falcon, Ice Hellion, and Steel Viper bought none...to be contradicted by the comment of all field them through various trials. Also they never said Ghost Bear did or did not purchase them that is unknown and could be writen in. It does follow what Ghost Bears look for in a mech some one, fast and fire power....you can not claim they don't have them either their is no mention for either in favor or against....so yea my point is mute but so is yours for Ghost Bear's....

Clan Nova Cat if ever added would use only Clan mechs aff? Why would they use IS house mechs I.E Atlas, Thunderbolt, Cicada's ect. Would they be the only faction to use only the Nova Cat and Mad Cat Mk.II in CW? No...Just as Clan Wolf (AS I mentioned above!) only fielded the Timberwolf in great numbers?

You have no proof that the IS forces had significant numbers to warrant it an IS mech....there is far more evidence to show that Clans fielded them more.


Ok, so once again you post a reference. You even highlight it to death. But you aren't reading what it's telling you.

"Only Clan Nova Cat fields any significant number." Nova Cat is Inner Sphere when the MkII is released.

"The only other Clans that have them won them in trials." The mech is not native to other Clans not allied with the Inner Sphere. Moreover, since neither MWO, nor YOUR OWN rules on the matter actually allow salvaged and captured mechs to be used by the capturing faction, none of the ones in possesion of the other Clans would be used in MWO. Again, you agree on this point.

"Quite a few" in the English language does not mean "a little bit." "Quite a few" means "A LOT." Large numbers. So... is English not your first language, because I could forgive you on this one if it's not. English is a really confusing language some times.

So which factions does the TRO specifically say can't have the mech? Jade Falcon, Wolf (reformed) and all the other non-IS aligned Clans, right? And which factions does it say CAN have the mech? Nova Cat and the IS Houses? SO all IS aligned factions.

Hell, even your MkII Enhanced snippet tells you explicitly INNER SPHERE CLANS. Where do you think those factions might be? Maybe in the Inner Sphere. I dunno, letters are hard.

And since you've ignored even the references you keep posting, here's another one for you to ignore... directly from the Official Catalyst Game Labs Battletech Master Unit List (that's the big list that defines which factions are allowed to use what):

http://www.masteruni...mk-ii-standard#

For some reason it won't let me post the pic where I've highlighted the relevant info, but if you click over on the Faction Availability List for the Civil War Era, you'll find the following:

Clan Diamond Shark (Source says they never actually fielded them)
Clan Ice Hellion (Source says they won them in Trials, so not allowed in MWO)
Clan Nova Cat (Fights on behalf of the Inner Sphere)
Draconis Combine (Inner Sphere House)
Federated Commonwealth (Inner Sphere mega-faction)
Federated Suns (Inner Sphere House)
Lyran Alliance (Inner Sphere House)

So, ALL official sources specify that the mech is aligned with the Inner Sphere. So what are you arguing here? Battletech has a system for defining who can use what. MWO follows that system. According to that system, the MkII is not a mech that's available to Clan factions fighting against the Inner Sphere. In order for PGI to add the MkII as a mech on the Clan side in MWO, it has to completely ignore where Battletech says the mech belongs.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 19 March 2016 - 01:59 PM.


#240 Cy Mitchell

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 02:14 PM

View Postpbiggz, on 19 March 2016 - 12:33 PM, said:


CW will always be Clan vs IS.



Really? Why?

I can see no reason for this. There currently is no loyalty to Clan or IS. Players and units switch sides on a whim. Merc units fight for clans which would never happen in BT.

Eliminate Clan vs IS. Eliminate pure tech and you eliminate a whole bunch of bitchin' and moaning about the game. Simply allow anyone who shares a border to fight with anyone else.

It is even supported by lore to eliminate the pure tech because by this point both sides had captured each other's tech and were using it as their own. Sure, the Clans only used the IS tech for garrison and second line units but they had it.

Accept this and it does not matter whether the Mad Cat MKII is Clan or IS. Just advance the game timeline to 3065 or 3067. Make CW Faction vs Faction without regard to Clan or IS. Include the MKII and the Uziel. Allow mixed tech drops. End of arguments. Lots of arguments.





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