102 replies to this topic

[cazidin]

Greetings Mechwarriors. Today I have a simple idea on how to mitigate the laser meta and put an end to Alpha Strikes without any new mechanics, just a change to an old, controversial one.

IS Medium Lasers and Medium Pulse Laser ghost heat reduced to 4. (From 6)
Clan ER-Medium Laser and Clan Medium Pulse Laser ghost heat reduced to 3. (Down from 6)

All lasers are now in the same ghost heat group. If you fire one Large Laser, you may fire two medium lasers or medium pulse lasers without incurring any penalty. If you fire two larger lasers and one medium laser you incur a heat penalty on the latter.

[Lugh]

No. Making the already dubious ghost heat mechanic more cumbersome doesn't do anything to fix the issue.

[FupDup]

Both of those Ghost Heat limits are brutally low, especially on the IS side of things.

Frankly, if we're going to use Ghost Heat to "balance" lasers, I'd rather just go with the idea of linking together all lasers rather than putting the max alpha limit to extremely low values.

[cazidin]

FupDup, on 22 February 2016 - 09:11 AM, said:

Both of those Ghost Heat limits are brutally low, especially on the IS side of things.

Frankly, if we're going to use Ghost Heat to "balance" lasers, I'd rather just go with the idea of linking together all lasers rather than putting the max alpha limit to extremely low values.

Sir, I think you didn't read it all. That was the second part.

[FupDup]

cazidin, on 22 February 2016 - 09:13 AM, said:

Sir, I think you didn't read it all. That was the second part.

And I made sure to reject the first part, because seriously a limit of only 4 IS Medium Lasers would be absurdly punishing.

Also note that my terms were kind of "generalized" because the second idea has already been floated around the forums in the past.

Edited by FupDup, 22 February 2016 - 09:15 AM.

[cazidin]

FupDup, on 22 February 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

And I made sure to reject the first part, because seriously a limit of only 4 IS Medium Lasers would be absurdly punishing.

So. You would reject an idea out of hand without first discussing it? The reason for that change would be to make it punishingly hot for anyone to have even a 30+ alpha strike. I'm sure you've read the numerous posts on these forums filled with complaints over the high potential alpha striking power of these lasers. You can torso-twist or armor roll to reduce the damage to one component but they can alpha strike multiple times and very soon, that armor will be gone.

Granted, I'm not a supporter of the Ghost Heat mechanic as I would prefer a proper heat scale... PGI simply won't do that at this time and if that's the case then I might as well work with a system we got and one that they would change.

Edited by cazidin, 22 February 2016 - 09:31 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

cazidin, on 22 February 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

So. You would reject an idea out of hand without first discussing it? The reason for that change would be to make it punishingly hot for anyone to have even a 30+ alpha strike.

Laser generally have to have one of two things over standard PPFLD weapons as a trade-off for not being front-loaded, higher damage output, or lower heat. They should not however be limited to 30 point alpha strikes given their current stats because you would remove lasers from the meta in almost one fell swoop.

It would be back to PPCs, Gauss, and AC5s which are actually starting to make a comeback.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 22 February 2016 - 09:23 AM.

[FupDup]

cazidin, on 22 February 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

So. You would reject an idea out of hand without first discussing it? The reason for that change would be to make it punishingly hot for anyone to have even a 30+ alpha strike.

What is there to even discuss about 4 Medium Lasers? I don't think an essay is needed to determine that the values for Idea #1 are very hard-handed.

As a case study, let's imagine a Swayback with 9 ML having to split his firing into three different groups (4 + 4 + 1), and the extreme amount of exposure time this would entail...

cazidin, on 22 February 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

I'm sure you've read the numerous posts on these forums filled with complaints over the high potential alpha striking power of these lasers.

The majority of forum complaints about laser vomitz are about 40-50+ damage alphas, not just 5 measly Medium Lasers. The worst offenders usually mix Large with Medium class lasers (e.g. LPL + [ER]ML) to get the most punch out of it without triggering Spooky Heat.

cazidin, on 22 February 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

You can torso-twist or armor roll to reduce the damage to one component but they can alpha strike multiple times and eventually... that armor will be gone.

I don't think this sentence here helped your case as much as you intended it to. "Eventually" the armor will be gone implies that people are actually taking a lot of damage before they die, which is (I assume) to be the goal of the game's TTK.

[pbiggz]

Ghost heat is terrible and you should never use it as a balance mechanic.

Boating has also been in every mechwarrior game there ever was. Do you know why? Because its fun.

[cazidin]

To Quicksilver Kalasa. A change in the meta? Maybe. The idea is more to make them balanced with PPFLD weapons like ACs and PPCs which I think they'd be if their relative damage was similar.

To FupDup. Yeah, 3-4 lasers wouldn't yield a large alpha strike and may require more face time but TTK would be increased significantly and these are two things that people want. Longer TTK, less laser vomit of death. You won't get 40-50 damage in an alpha with only a few lasers, that's true and that's the point.

And you're right, I chose the wrong wording there. I have since edited it.

pbiggz, on 22 February 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

Ghost heat is terrible and you should never use it as a balance mechanic.

Boating has also been in every mechwarrior game there ever was. Do you know why? Because its fun.

Again. I never said I supported the mechanic and I even said it's a controversial one but it's what we got so its what we work with until PGI adds in a proper heat scale or a different mechanic to deal with high damage alpha strikes.

[Monkey Lover]

They need to add in another scale dealing with the reactors load. It could recovery quickly say 1 second but would limit mechs from applying to much load at one time.

This would also give them another system to use as balance.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

cazidin, on 22 February 2016 - 09:31 AM, said:

To Quicksilver Kalasa. A change in the meta? Maybe. The idea is more to make them balanced with PPFLD weapons like ACs and PPCs which I think they'd be if their relative damage was similar.

The only reason ACs and PPCs suffer currently, is because their velocity isn't high enough to make them effective at their optimal range. Your idea to nerf lasers this hard is unneeded, when a buff to projectile velocity across the board would bring ACs and PPCs more into the fold.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 22 February 2016 - 09:35 AM.

[FupDup]

cazidin, on 22 February 2016 - 09:31 AM, said:

To FupDup. Yeah, 3-4 lasers wouldn't yield a large alpha strike and may require more face time but TTK would be increased significantly and these are two things that people want. Longer TTK, less laser vomit of death. You won't get 40-50 damage in an alpha with only a few lasers, that's true and that's the point.

As a reminder, 4 Medium Lasers is only 20 damage, with a default max range of 270m.

5 Medium Lasers is only 25 damage at that same range...that hardly qualifies as a "large" alpha strike, and yet it gets penalized here.

This makes me wonder, how much Ghost Heat would a stock Nova create with the Clan ERML limit set to just 3? Even at 6 it already dies almost instantly...

The magic number of "max allowed damage" for lasers and Spooky Heat should be no lower than 30 (excluding stuff like Clan LPL for obvious reasons) and no higher than 40.


For face time, keep in mind that while it helps the target live longer, the person shooting those beams is going to die faster because they can't twist without having their beams get wasted.

Ultimately, this entails people to use whatever combos allow the most damage without triggering the penalty, sort of like how the first wave of Spooky Heat played out...

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 February 2016 - 09:35 AM, said:

The only reason ACs and PPCs suffer currently, is because their velocity isn't high enough to make them effective at their optimal range. Your idea to nerf lasers this hard is unneeded, when a buff to projectile velocity across the board would bring ACs and PPCs more into the fold.

Well, I wouldn't say that's the "only" reason (biggest perhaps, but there are others).

For ACs, their relatively low damage compared to the tonnage they eat up is quite an issue until you get a mech big enough to absorb those weight costs. Trying to make a dakka light can be funny, but rarely practical...

Edited by FupDup, 22 February 2016 - 09:42 AM.

[cazidin]

Monkey Lover, on 22 February 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

They need to add in another scale dealing with the reactors load. It could recovery quickly say 1 second but would limit mechs from applying to much load at one time.

This would also give them another system to use as balance.

Unfortunately, PGI is unlikely to implement new mechanics.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 February 2016 - 09:35 AM, said:

The only reason ACs and PPCs suffer currently, is because their velocity isn't high enough to make them effective at their optimal range. Your idea to nerf lasers this hard is unneeded, when a buff to projectile velocity across the board would bring ACs and PPCs more into the fold.

Even on mechs with ballistic velocity or PPC velocity quirks I see more people take Large Lasers or Large Pulse Lasers because they can simply do more damage. If you can boat 6+ then you can pull off an impressive alpha strike with medium lasers or medium pulse lasers. This change would do something about that though I do agree that they need a velocity buff, sans quirks.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

cazidin, on 22 February 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

Even on mechs with ballistic velocity or PPC velocity quirks I see more people take Large Lasers or Large Pulse Lasers because they can simply do more damage.

Many Timby's have switched to 2 ERPPC/Gauss builds, but they tend to use it at mid/long rather the ERLL territory. The Dakka Mauler (5 AC5s) has been one of EmP's main assaults. The problem is a lot of the mechs that have good velocity quirks, aren't really good for dakka due to some reason (poor convergence being among them, not having good enough quirks, not having enough hardpoints) outside of a few that actually have none of the problems like the Mauler or Whale.

For PPCs, the ghost heat limit being 2 vs the 3 of the LL/LPLs has also hurt the usage of the PPC quite a bit since combining with a ballistic to get around that ends up somewhat inefficient since ACs tend to be a bit different in role.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 22 February 2016 - 09:50 AM.

[cazidin]

FupDup, on 22 February 2016 - 09:41 AM, said:

As a reminder, 4 Medium Lasers is only 20 damage, with a default max range of 270m.

5 Medium Lasers is only 25 damage at that same range...that hardly qualifies as a "large" alpha strike, and yet it gets penalized here.

This makes me wonder, how much Ghost Heat would a stock Nova create with the Clan ERML limit set to just 3? Even at 6 it already dies almost instantly...

The magic number of "max allowed damage" for lasers and Spooky Heat should be no lower than 30 (excluding stuff like Clan LPL for obvious reasons) and no higher than 40.

For face time, keep in mind that while it helps the target live longer, the person shooting those beams is going to die faster because they can't twist without having their beams get wasted.

Ultimately, this entails people to use whatever combos allow the most damage without triggering the penalty, sort of like how the first wave of Spooky Heat played out...

Poor Nova. Even after a rescale, if my changes were implemented, it'd be too hot to run. Ah well. It can fire one arm of Small Lasers or Small Pulse Lasers still. Okay. Let's say the number of lasers that can be fired without ghost heat is reduced by just 1 or 2. 5 for the IS, 4 for the Clans. 5 IS ML is 25 damage and 4 C-ER ML is 28. Close enough.

If, like most people, one chooses to fire above the ghost heat limit for a deadly alpha strike we'd atleast see their alpha drop by roughly 11-23% assuming they only fired 2 above the limit. 7 IS ML is 35 damage, down from 40. 6 C-ER ML is 42, down from 56. Etc. I'm not asking for unreasonably harsh penalties.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 February 2016 - 09:48 AM, said:

Many Timby's have switched to 2 ERPPC/Gauss builds, but they tend to use it at mid/long rather the ERLL territory. The Dakka Mauler (5 AC5s) has been one of EmP's main assaults. The problem is a lot of the mechs that have good velocity quirks, aren't really good for dakka due to some reason (poor convergence being among them, not having good enough quirks, not having enough hardpoints) outside of a few that actually have none of the problems like the Mauler or Whale.

For PPCs, the ghost heat limit being 2 vs the 3 of the LL/LPLs has also hurt the usage of the PPC quite a bit since combining with a ballistic to get around that ends up somewhat inefficient since ACs tend to be a bit different in role.

Right. My apologies if I made it seem as though I was of the opinion that Dakka builds are extinct. They're not. I just see them less often than laser focused builds. A Dakka King or Dakka Whale are still deadly in the hands of a skilled pilot.

Edited by cazidin, 22 February 2016 - 10:09 AM.

[LegendaryArticuno]

In Mech Commander it's fun to load up an Atlas lance with all small clan pulse lasers and then go to brawl town.

[cazidin]

LegendaryArticuno, on 22 February 2016 - 10:10 AM, said:

In Mech Commander it's fun to load up an Atlas lance with all small clan pulse lasers and then go to brawl town.

Ah, a good ol' Steiner scout lance. 4 Atlas, ECM and small pulse lasers. Slightly more maneuverable than most fortresses.

[Sandpit]

Can someone tell me why Alphas should be "stopped"?

Lugh, on 22 February 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:

No. Making the already dubious ghost heat mechanic more cumbersome doesn't do anything to fix the issue.

oh and that

[Ultimax]

cazidin, on 22 February 2016 - 09:08 AM, said:

Greetings Mechwarriors. Today I have a simple idea on how to mitigate the laser meta and put an end to Alpha Strikes without any new mechanics, just a change to an old, controversial one.

IS Medium Lasers and Medium Pulse Laser ghost heat reduced to 4. (From 6)
Clan ER-Medium Laser and Clan Medium Pulse Laser ghost heat reduced to 3. (Down from 6)

All lasers are now in the same ghost heat group. If you fire one Large Laser, you may fire two medium lasers or medium pulse lasers without incurring any penalty. If you fire two larger lasers and one medium laser you incur a heat penalty on the latter.

Idea is bad, people will just switch mechs and builds to accommodate.


You can never stop it, because shooting all of your weapons at once and then getting into cover is the smart way to play - and standing their chain-firing lasers for 10s is the epitome of dumbness.

Sandpit, on 22 February 2016 - 10:20 AM, said:

Can someone tell me why Alphas should be "stopped"?

Because there are a lot of players who think it makes more sense to nerf the whole game down to their ability level, as opposed to just getting better at it.

Edited by Ultimax, 22 February 2016 - 10:22 AM.