102 replies to this topic

[LordNothing]

i dont want them stopped i want them to cost something.

instead of ghost heat, which only effects weapons of similar class. id like to completely replace it with a system based around a 30 damage bar. any alpha strike or group that does under 30 damage is fair game. ghost heat is then based on the amount of damage above 30, any damage over 80 is an instant shutdown worth of heat, override == death (you can still do 80 point alphas, you just have to be very aware of your situation, can you do it without dying, can you handle the structural damage, is the shot going to kill, are there other mechs that can retaliate while you are down).

it would be on a curve so that strikes in the 30-50 range are manageable. in the 50-70 range you are in fire once and hide territory. 70+ is the dire emegency alpha that you usually avoid unless you are for sure going to die unless you kill the mech in front of you right now, its going to hurt you (this would definitely put an end to my reign of terror in my 36 tube jenner iic).

Edited by LordNothing, 22 February 2016 - 10:28 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Ghost heat is dumb. Let's not legitimize it.

[cazidin]

Sandpit, on 22 February 2016 - 10:20 AM, said:

Can someone tell me why Alphas should be "stopped"?

Sure. Lore-wise, an Alpha Strike was a desperate measure. Gameplay-wise, powerful alpha strikes are detrimental to a healthy TTK. Your mech feels like its made of rice paper if its armor is stripped in an alpha strike and destroyed in two.

Ultimax, on 22 February 2016 - 10:22 AM, said:

Idea is bad, people will just switch mechs and builds to accommodate.

You can never stop it, because shooting all of your weapons at once and then getting into cover is the smart way to play - and standing their chain-firing lasers for 10s is the epitome of dumbness.

Because there are a lot of players who think it makes more sense to nerf the whole game down to their ability level, as opposed to just getting better at it.

If ALL lasers are part of the same family as far as ghost heat is concerned then mixing/matching energy weapons wouldn't help them. At all. Worst case? An end of the laser meta and the beginning of a new, more balanced game. We might even see more mixed loadouts!

Please don't be that guy. The one who says "LOL. They just want this change to make the game easier for them. Noobs." Nobody likes that guy.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

cazidin, on 22 February 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:

An end of the laser meta and the beginning of a new, more balanced game.

Killing laser boats as an option isn't really making the game more balanced, just sayin.

[LordNothing]

Mister Blastman, on 22 February 2016 - 10:25 AM, said:

Ghost heat is dumb. Let's not legitimize it.

ghost heat is dumb because its arbitrary, make it less arbitrary and it will be less dumb. 30 damage worth of ppcs is a no no, but 48 damage in clan medium pulse is fine (and this is fairly modest compared to what can be done without ghost heat showing up at all).

Edited by LordNothing, 22 February 2016 - 10:42 AM.

[Sandpit]

cazidin, on 22 February 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:

Sure. Lore-wise, an Alpha Strike was a desperate measure. Gameplay-wise, powerful alpha strikes are detrimental to a healthy TTK.

uhm any damage is "detrimental" to a healthy TTK.

Alpha strikes are nothing more than firing all weapons at once. That's it. Nothing else.

A heat scale that offers actual penalties to heat solves a lot of that, but that's just never going to happen.

[cazidin]

Mister Blastman, on 22 February 2016 - 10:25 AM, said:

Ghost heat is dumb. Let's not legitimize it.

I don't like Ghost Heat very much either but it's what we got so lets work with it unless and until PGI implements a proper heat scale.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 February 2016 - 10:31 AM, said:

Killing laser boats as an option isn't really making the game more balanced, just sayin.

Except this wouldn't kill laser boats. Your damage would still be comparable to most AC boats. This may even encourage a more mixed load out or more chain fire but lasers would still be useful just a little less deadly, atleast, with a more balanced trade-off for their effective damage.

1Grimbane, on 22 February 2016 - 10:33 AM, said:

leave my high powered laser alpha's alone thank you. i represent the dark side of the player base that wants alphas MINUS any ghost heat at all. pure raw alpha power with ZERO penalties. now if i could just fire 11 ppc's without heat

I admit, it'd be fairly amusing to see the dreaded direstar roam the battlefield with reckless abandon, smiting down all whom dare oppose it!

Sandpit, on 22 February 2016 - 10:43 AM, said:

uhm any damage is "detrimental" to a healthy TTK.

Alpha strikes are nothing more than firing all weapons at once. That's it. Nothing else.

A heat scale that offers actual penalties to heat solves a lot of that, but that's just never going to happen.

You're right. It would and sadly it likely won't happen. That's why I'm proposing that we work with the system that we have.

Edited by cazidin, 22 February 2016 - 10:52 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

cazidin, on 22 February 2016 - 10:46 AM, said:

I don't like Ghost Heat very much either but it's what we got so lets work with it unless and until PGI implements a proper heat scale.

Anything done to legitimize ghost heat will only perpetuate it for longer. No.

[Sandpit]

cazidin, on 22 February 2016 - 10:46 AM, said:

You're right. It would and sadly it likely won't happen. That's why I'm proposing that we work with the system because this Is MechWarrior Online, a Battletech game. Not MechWarrior Online, a Battletech game, subsidiary of Alpha Strike Inc.

Alpha strikes are a part of the game, always have been. There's nothing wrong with alpha strike mechanics in MWO.

The problem lies with the overall philosophy on the heat scale PGI insists on using. Paul decided ghost heat was a good idea (which was never mentioned, discussed, or tested by the community before it was slipped in and wasn't even documented in the patch notes mind you) and that's what heat is.

Until there is a consequence to alpha striking with lots of weapons and generating lots of heat other than shutting down after alpha number 3 or so, that particular strategy will not change.

Ghost heat adjustments won't fix it because they never, ever, and I do mean EVER, fixed the issue in 3 years. Not once has any ghost heat adjustment even remotely mitigated alpha strikes for high damage.

Ever
not once

Yet, PGI continues to think it's a "good" balancing tool.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

cazidin, on 22 February 2016 - 10:46 AM, said:

Except this wouldn't kill laser boats.

Both options together certainly would do this outside of some smaller mechs like maybe the BJ-1X (6 MPL or 6 ML/2 MPL).

[Mister Blastman]

LordNothing, on 22 February 2016 - 10:38 AM, said:

ghost heat is dumb because its arbitrary, make it less arbitrary and it will be less dumb. 30 damage worth of ppcs is a no no, but 48 damage in clan medium pulse is fine (and this is fairly modest compared to what can be done without ghost heat showing up at all).

Ghost heat violates the laws of physics. No.

I know Battletech is 1980s fantasy... but... you just don't mess with thermodynamics!

[sycocys]

You handle the problem far more effectively by adding a heat scale where players running at 80%+ start doing damage to their components.

Go ahead alpha a couple times, then watch your boated weapons start getting cooked off, your DHS vaporizing. Internals should be taking damage last in line, you cook the things generating the heat and your cooling system first.

When you do this people will start to learn fire control.

[cazidin]

Sandpit, on 22 February 2016 - 10:54 AM, said:

Alpha strikes are a part of the game, always have been. There's nothing wrong with alpha strike mechanics in MWO.

The problem lies with the overall philosophy on the heat scale PGI insists on using. Paul decided ghost heat was a good idea (which was never mentioned, discussed, or tested by the community before it was slipped in and wasn't even documented in the patch notes mind you) and that's what heat is.

Until there is a consequence to alpha striking with lots of weapons and generating lots of heat other than shutting down after alpha number 3 or so, that particular strategy will not change.

Ghost heat adjustments won't fix it because they never, ever, and I do mean EVER, fixed the issue in 3 years. Not once has any ghost heat adjustment even remotely mitigated alpha strikes for high damage.

Ever
not once

Yet, PGI continues to think it's a "good" balancing tool.

My apologies first and foremost. I edited the last part. You're absolutely right. Ghost Heat, as it is now, only leads to slightly modified loadouts to circumvent the heat penalties. It wasn't very well thought out initially. That's why I proposed those two changes which are:

1.Reduce Ghost Heat limit on IS ML/MPL by 1-2 and C-ER ML/MPL by 2-3. This would put them in line with the damage that LL, ER LL and LPL can do without a heat penalty.
2.Put ALL energy weapons into one family. If you fire 1 LL, you can only fire 2-3 ML or MPL without penalty. If you fire 2 LL, you cannot fire even a single small laser without penalty.

This second part has thus far been overlooked by quite a few, even FupDup.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 February 2016 - 10:55 AM, said:

Both options together certainly would do this outside of some smaller mechs like maybe the BJ-1X (6 MPL or 6 ML/2 MPL).

Well. We can do one of three things here. Either energy boats have to chainfire, take the penalty and alpha strike anyway but only once or *maybe* twice without overheating or they - and only energy boats - get some heat reduction quirks to compensate but the lattermost option would defeat the point, would it not?

sycocys, on 22 February 2016 - 10:59 AM, said:

You handle the problem far more effectively by adding a heat scale where players running at 80%+ start doing damage to their components.

Go ahead alpha a couple times, then watch your boated weapons start getting cooked off, your DHS vaporizing. Internals should be taking damage last in line, you cook the things generating the heat and your cooling system first.

When you do this people will start to learn fire control.

You're right. A proper heat scale WOULD be better and I'd like that very much but we work with what we got unless and until PGI implements it. I'm not sure if they'd learn fire control or if they'd just complain on the forums like me.

Edited by cazidin, 22 February 2016 - 11:06 AM.

[Sandpit]

Players have been trying to get PGI to understand the flaw of their philosophy when it comes to heat for 3 years now. PGI knows better, just ask them, because anyone else in the community that's been playing for a while will tell you ghost heat doesn't solve anything in regards to heat.
Never has
Never will

[Quicksilver Aberration]

cazidin, on 22 February 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

Well. We can do one of three things here. Either energy boats have to chainfire, take the penalty and alpha strike anyway but only once or *maybe* twice without overheating or they - and only energy boats - get some heat reduction quirks to compensate but the lattermost option would defeat the point, would it not?

Or you could lower heat caps a bit more since that is what limits viable energy alphas, though honestly the main problem with high energy alphas is iXL engines on mechs without torso structure quirks.

High energy alphas are viable on a select number of mechs like the BK and Timby, not many others really boast large alphas, they are just able to spam lasers a bit more often (like the 3 LPL/4 LL Quickdraw). Those mechs that are able to are also not able to keep up that alpha, they get two off and then have to use only a select few weapons if they aren't able to back down and cooldown.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 22 February 2016 - 11:15 AM.

[cazidin]

Sandpit, on 22 February 2016 - 11:11 AM, said:

Players have been trying to get PGI to understand the flaw of their philosophy when it comes to heat for 3 years now. PGI knows better, just ask them, because anyone else in the community that's been playing for a while will tell you ghost heat doesn't solve anything in regards to heat.
Never has
Never will

Has anyone tweeted these ideas?

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 February 2016 - 11:12 AM, said:

Or you could lower heat caps a bit more since that is what limits viable energy alphas, though honestly the main problem with high energy alphas is iXL engines on mechs without torso structure quirks.

High energy alphas are viable on a select number of mechs like the BK and Timby, not many others really boast large alphas, they are just able to spam lasers a bit more often (like the 3 LPL/4 LL Quickdraw).

Unfortunately, you'd have to halve the heat capacity while simultaneously increasing heat dissipation to effectively kill Alpha Strikes without killing Energy Boats.

I don't mind energy spam so much but maybe that's because I've dealt with (and yes, even defeated) a few ballistic boats. At least with a 2.25-3 second CD and limited if any alpha striking the battle won't end in under 15 seconds. (I exaggerate a bit, but I think you can see my point.)

[Quicksilver Aberration]

cazidin, on 22 February 2016 - 11:17 AM, said:

Unfortunately, you'd have to halve the heat capacity while simultaneously increasing heat dissipation to effectively kill Alpha Strikes without killing Energy Boats.

I'm not saying we need to severely crush heat caps, just reduce them by maybe 10 points at most. Dissipation doesn't need to be touched. BKs/GHRs/TBRs/EBJs will all feel the pain a bit due to being unable to spit out 2 consecutive high energy alphas, though honestly I don't know that this is still necessary since as I said before, very few mechs really boast really high energy alphas and they aren't the only style of mech used.

[sycocys]

We had 50+ page discussions on if iirc when they first implemented magical heat. Many of them.

I also recall that this was before the twitter focus. Either it doesn't matter because PGI/Russ doesn't really care.

[LordNothing]

Mister Blastman, on 22 February 2016 - 10:55 AM, said:

Ghost heat violates the laws of physics. No.

I know Battletech is 1980s fantasy... but... you just don't mess with thermodynamics!

as a physics nut i have to agree and even like your post.

but its just one of those cases where good gameplay trumps. if you were using realphysics ™, kinetic energy reigns supreme, in that mech sim you are going to find that ballistics and missiles are far superior to direct energy weapons. raw momentum is that good (e=mc^2), the slow massive bullet is going to impart more energy than the beam of photons with infinitesimal mass. lasers are very inefficient devices. so they take a lot of energy to fire but only deliver about about 25% (about as efficient as a gasoline engine btw). diode lasers get up to 30% but those arent used unless as part of a dpssl, and that is going to introduce losses at the crystal, and through each fiber optic from the diodes to the crystal, so you are back to 25% for the entire system.

firing lasers is going to strain your reactor, but firing a gun or missile is just going to use up gunpowder or rocket motor and the reactor wont care. but its still going to produce heat that you need to get rid of. heat sinks might have to work harder when you fire all your guns or tubes at once, and myomers might have to power up to resist recoil. but its not a huge strain on the reactor like energy weapons. dont get me started on flamers, draining plasma from the reactor is just going to make reactor shut down and require a restart (take out hot plasma, then you have to reheat the new plasma because it takes the energy you need to initiate fusion with it).

you might have a capacitor bank (one mili-farad per amp!) between the reactor and the power supply (basic power supply design consideration, be it a switch mode regulator on a pcb or a gargantuan substation on the power grid) so the mech can handle the surge of firing a lot of beams, but then the reactor is going to have to go into overdrive to recharge those caps before you get brownouts in your myomers making you fall over. so that is a good explanation of where ghost heat is coming from (it uses more gas to drive fast). but this is going to affect every energy weapon, not just group of lasers of a certain size.

ghost heat in its current incarnation can literally die in a fire. but a more physically appropriate system will be just as unbalanced and ballistic/missile boats are the new "meta". you need to throw both out the window and come up with a system that facilitates good gameplay.

Edited by LordNothing, 22 February 2016 - 11:37 AM.

[Mole]

Ghost heat was never a good idea. Making it even more punishing is not a good idea either.