102 replies to this topic

[cazidin]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 February 2016 - 11:24 AM, said:

I'm not saying we need to severely crush heat caps, just reduce them by maybe 10 points at most. Dissipation doesn't need to be touched. BKs/GHRs/TBRs/EBJs will all feel the pain a bit due to being unable to spit out 2 consecutive high energy alphas, though honestly I don't know that this is still necessary since as I said before, very few mechs really boast really high energy alphas and they aren't the only style of mech used.

Speaking from experience, a small reduction of 10 heat capacity would be barely noticeable though I couldn't get that third alpha strike, true. It's a good idea and could certainly work but it'd have to be reduced by atleast 20. So, maybe not halved but reduced to about two thirds.

I would say increase dissipation slightly only if the heat capacity were reduced significantly and again, true. There are many other builds but high energy alphas are a problem that should be addressed.

[Uncl Munkeh]

Monkey Lover, on 22 February 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

They need to add in another scale dealing with the reactors load. It could recovery quickly say 1 second but would limit mechs from applying to much load at one time.

This would also give them another system to use as balance.

Someone should consider WHY they are doing this. Lore's already broken, so yeah, why not.

[Sandpit]

cazidin, on 22 February 2016 - 12:03 PM, said:

Speaking from experience, a small reduction of 10 heat capacity would be barely noticeable though I couldn't get that third alpha strike, true. It's a good idea and could certainly work but it'd have to be reduced by atleast 20. So, maybe not halved but reduced to about two thirds.

I would say increase dissipation slightly only if the heat capacity were reduced significantly and again, true. There are many other builds but high energy alphas are a problem that should be addressed.

The thing ghost heat never takes into consideration is an alpha strike from multiple weapon systems.

I promise you, players who build more balanced type builds and make use of multiple weapon systems have never given ghost heat much of a thought.

Ghost heat wasn't and never has done anything to affect alphas. The only thing it has ever been able to do is limit the number of boated weapons fired at once.

Boated weapons

[Khobai]

Quote

The thing ghost heat never takes into consideration is an alpha strike from multiple weapon systems.

and all lasers being in the same ghost heat group would fix that.

it just does it in a way no one wants.

[DivineEvil]

Base heat capacity (30 points on any mech) ----> Remove.
Base heat dissipation (doesn't exist atm) ----> 1.0 pps.
(Ghost) Heat Scale system ----> Remove.
Double Heatsink (IS/Clan) values ----> 2.0 capacity, 0.2 dissipation.
Single Heatsink values ----> 1.4 capacity, 0.14 dissipation.
No penalties for external heatsinks.
Results (no counting skills or quirks):

JM6-S, 2xAC/20, 10 DHS =
Capacity: 50.0 20.0 (50% heat level on alpha)
Dissipation: 2.0 3.0 (25.0s 6.6s to cool-off)

FS9-S, 5xMPL, 12 DHS =
Capacity: 53.0 24.0 (6 point overheat on alpha)
Dissipation: 2.28 3.4 ( 23.2s 7.0s to cool-off)

BJ-3, 3xLPL, 12 DHS =
Capacity: 52.5 24.0 (87.5% heat level on alpha)
Dissipation: 2.22 3.4 (23.6s 7.0s to cool-off)

BL-6-KNT, 5xML, 3xLPL, 19 DHS =
Capacity: 63.5 38.0 (3 point overheat on alpha)
Dissipation: 3.26 4.8 ( 19.4s 8.0s to cool-off)

Job's done. Less alpha-strike, more dynamic combat.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

DivineEvil, on 22 February 2016 - 12:16 PM, said:

FS9-S, 5xMPL, 12 DHS =
Capacity: 53.0 24.0 (6 point overheat on alpha)
Dissipation: 2.28 3.4 ( 23.2s 7.0s to cool-off)

The weakest mech gets hit the hardest by this, how about no to these changes?

[Sandpit]

Khobai, on 22 February 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

and all lasers being in the same ghost heat group would fix that.

it just does it in a way no one wants.

no it wouldn't

please explain to me how a 4 medium laser 2 AC5 alpha is fixed by that?

[Khobai]

Quote

please explain to me how a 4 medium laser 2 AC5 alpha is fixed by that?

4 medium laser 2 AC5 isnt a problem combination of weapons though. it doesnt need fixing.


the weapon combinations that are problems are things like 4-5 ERML and 2 CLPL

and putting all lasers in the same ghost heat group certainly fixes that

Edited by Khobai, 22 February 2016 - 12:37 PM.

[DivineEvil]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 February 2016 - 12:18 PM, said:

The weakest mech gets hit the hardest by this, how about no to these changes?

Not really. That "weakest" mech is a go-to Light mech at the moment, particularly relating to competetive league games, simply by the virtue of the most powerful alpha-strike without limiting it's effective range by small or small pulse lasers. There's just no more competetive Lights out there, except maybe for Arctic Cheetahs with their own version. By all concerns, I cannot see HOW you can call it the weakest, and I don't see HOW it is being hit the hardest. Please specify.

These changes would hit everyone in exactly the necessary degree and might promote using several groups of weapons, sacrificing weapon tonnage for additional heatsinks for better performance and chain-firing combat on these mechs.

Edited by DivineEvil, 22 February 2016 - 12:45 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 22 February 2016 - 12:36 PM, said:

4 medium laser 2 AC5 isnt a problem combination of weapons

Maybe now, but if you keep playing whack-a-mole with specific types of alphas, who says it won't ever become a problem?

DivineEvil, on 22 February 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

Not really. That "weakest" mech is a go-to Light mech at the moment, particularly relating to competetive league games

I play comp, and it isn't a go-to light, nor are light mechs really well off outside of the Oxide (which would actually benefit greatly from this change) and maybe the Cheetah.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 22 February 2016 - 12:39 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Maybe now, but if you keep playing whack-a-mole with specific types of alphas, who says it won't ever become a problem?

why would it? 30 damage alphas have never been a problem in the history of the game. its only when alphas get above 30 that they start to break the armor system.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 22 February 2016 - 12:40 PM, said:

why would it? 30 damage alphas have never been a problem in the history of the game.

2 PPC + 2 AC5 = 30 points
2 Gauss = 30 points

While the alpha was never great, both have weapon combos have caused issues in the past.

You are also missing the point, if you continue to play whack-a-mole with alphas 30 points could be the equivalent of the current 50-60 alphas once certain structure quirks are undone (which helped mitigate the huge alphas and survival after receiving one).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 22 February 2016 - 12:44 PM.

[Sandpit]

Khobai, on 22 February 2016 - 12:36 PM, said:

4 medium laser 2 AC5 isnt a problem combination of weapons though. it doesnt need fixing.


the weapon combinations that are problems are things like 4-5 ERML and 2 CLPL

and putting all lasers in the same ghost heat group certainly fixes that

ahhh so only certain combinations of weapons need to be nerfed?

or you're just trying to say only lasers are an issue?

[Khobai]

Quote

While the alpha was never great, both have weapon combos have caused issues in the past.

because of jumpjets. jumpjets were majorly nerfed though.

those weapon combinations are no longer problematic without jumpsniping

Quote

ahhh so only certain combinations of weapons need to be nerfed?

or you're just trying to say only lasers are an issue?

lasers are currently the biggest issue yes.

im not saying lasers are the only thing that needs to be nerfed, but theyre #1 priority on the nerf list.

lasers are one of the most boatable weapons, dont use ammo, have zero travel time/hit instantly at max range, get some of the strongest quirks. laser vomit is by far the most problematic combination of weapons right now.

Edited by Khobai, 22 February 2016 - 12:49 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 22 February 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

those weapon combinations are no longer problematic without jumpsniping

Dual Gauss pre-dated jumpsniping.

Either way, nerfing lasers too hard will result in a return in good ol PPC/Gauss/AC days, and even linking all lasers to the same group would pretty much seal the deal on that one. That or just result in everything switching to LPL spam which is more likely. Funny how adding linking things in ghost heat would actually result in more boating of singular weapons.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 22 February 2016 - 12:52 PM.

[Sandpit]

Khobai, on 22 February 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

lasers are currently the biggest issue yes.

im not saying lasers are the only thing that needs to be nerfed, but theyre #1 priority on the nerf list.

lasers are one of the most boatable weapons, dont use ammo, have zero travel time/hit instantly at max range, get some of the strongest quirks. laser vomit is by far the most problematic combination of weapons right now.

There's a huge difference in balancing a weapon and adjusting weapons specifically for alpha strikes.

I'm curious though, how come energy boating wasn't an issue over the past 3 years?

Energy weapons were berated for about 3 years as being inferior to ballistics.

Two different issues being discussed.
Alpha
Boating

Boating is the issue, not alpha strikes.

The reason I'm being so "nitpicky" about this is because this is how players (especially new ones) and PGI wind up on different wavelengths.

They see a thread like this and think "Alphas are bad mmmkay. People said so"
Even the ones complaining about alphas are actually complaining about boating when you ask them to give specifics on what they don't like.

Boating needs to be looked into. Alpha strikes have nothing to do with that other than being an alpha strike when a player fired off all those boated weapons at once. By your own words you state that alphas are only an issue with certain builds and weapon systems in general.

Boating needs to be addressed, not alpha strikes.

boating can't be addressed by build limitations because of how PGI set up the mech lab and mech customization rules.
The easiest and simplest way to have solved all of this from day 1 is simply give build limitations like any other GM would in a public game.

Barring that, the next most comprehensive way to help mitigate large damage alphas due to heavy boating is implement a heat scale that actually has consequences.

[LordNothing]

controls for boating are arbitrary and avoidable while controls for high alpha are not existent.

[Mole]

This worries me, the fact that lasers are the new meta. It means they are going to get nerfed so bad that they become almost completely unviable, as has happened with every meta in the past. I've been in love with laser boating since before lasers were meta. Please don't break my mechs.

[cazidin]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 February 2016 - 12:49 PM, said:

Either way, nerfing lasers too hard will result in a return in good ol PPC/Gauss/AC days, and even linking all lasers to the same group would pretty much seal the deal on that one. That or just result in everything switching to LPL spam which is more likely. Funny how adding linking things in ghost heat would actually result in more boating of singular weapons.

That'd be ironic! Seriously, though, the goal here isn't to bring about a new meta but to end alpha strikes of greater than 35 damage. There'd be a few mixed loadouts that could still pull off a more impressive alpha strike but at some cost. (Either limited ammo, very high heat, or short range.)

Mole, on 22 February 2016 - 02:37 PM, said:

This worries me, the fact that lasers are the new meta. It means they are going to get nerfed so bad that they become almost completely unviable, as has happened with every meta in the past. I've been in love with laser boating since before lasers were meta. Please don't break my mechs.

I don't want to nerf lasers into MG tier weapons, just limit alpha strikes. Their damage is unchanged you just couldn't fire more than X without penalty. I wouldn't want to break your mechs, my mechs or anyones mechs because some rely solely on energy weapons.

[Khobai]

Quote

Dual Gauss pre-dated jumpsniping.

gauss was nerfed