102 replies to this topic

[-Vompo-]

Rather than ghost heat just make mechs shutdown (just a quick little nap for the mech) if they generate certain amount of heat per second. No matter the weapon combination fired. It would make much more sense to me. This wouldn't need to go over the heat cap but would be standard for all mechs or all weigh classes.

It could be called heatspike protection or something.

Edited by VompoVompatti, 24 February 2016 - 08:24 PM.

[WarHippy]

How about instead of more ghost heat nonsense we go for something a little different. Instead how about any time weapons are fired together that do more than say 35 damage it causes a 50% increase to all cool downs for the weapons fired in that group. That way if you want to have a higher dps you need to do more chain firing, and if you want more burst damage you can do that but you will fire less often. At least that would make more sense than ghost heat in my opinion.

[cazidin]

jaxjace, on 24 February 2016 - 06:09 PM, said:

Negative, I DO remember the days of super long duration, that was fine Lasers either should be really really hot for their dmg like in TT or have them take longer to do dmg, they are simply the best weapon there is, and still would be in the top 2 weapon categories even with my proposed nerfs.

The laser meta is not just clan large medium vomit its also the unholy trinity laser (3x ISLPL) that weapon system is by far the most effective weapon in the game, boated heat sinks and firing all day thats a 33 dmg shot every trigger pull which is OFTEN, but thats not the kicker of it, its that it does all of that, in about less than a second.

I respectfully disagree with increasing laser duration. It would either be too weak to have any noticeable difference or too strong and they become terrible weapons. Yes, the unholy trinity is a powerful weapon group but pulse lasers should be rapid pulsing, low beam duration weapon. Perhaps more heat?

[brroleg]

cazidin, on 22 February 2016 - 09:08 AM, said:

Alpha Strikes And How To Stop Them

[Kaisha]

In the WoW alpha they had a similar problem with mages insta-gibbing players out of invisibility. They added the 'global cooldown' for most abilities (a few key one's weren't affected, but most were). Any ability used would put all others (except for a few exceptions) on a 0.5s cooldown. You could do similar here, firing more than 'x' of a weapon would put any others in the same category on a short cooldown.

[cazidin]

WarHippy, on 24 February 2016 - 08:43 PM, said:

How about instead of more ghost heat nonsense we go for something a little different. Instead how about any time weapons are fired together that do more than say 35 damage it causes a 50% increase to all cool downs for the weapons fired in that group. That way if you want to have a higher dps you need to do more chain firing, and if you want more burst damage you can do that but you will fire less often. At least that would make more sense than ghost heat in my opinion.

Kaisha, on 24 February 2016 - 10:34 PM, said:

In the WoW alpha they had a similar problem with mages insta-gibbing players out of invisibility. They added the 'global cooldown' for most abilities (a few key one's weren't affected, but most were). Any ability used would put all others (except for a few exceptions) on a 0.5s cooldown. You could do similar here, firing more than 'x' of a weapon would put any others in the same category on a short cooldown.

Adding a cooldown penalty for firing more than X weapons would be an interesting balance mechanic but unfortunately I fear the community would quicky dub it... GHOST COOLDOWN!!!

brroleg, on 24 February 2016 - 09:04 PM, said:

No. Please read my thread about the short sightedness of convergence mechanics. Long story short, it'd adversely affect mechs with unusual torso hardpoints and add a new Arm Mount Meta. Plus, PGI has gone as record as saying they will not implement this. Ever.

[Kaisha]

cazidin, on 25 February 2016 - 08:11 AM, said:

No. Please read my thread about the short sightedness of convergence mechanics. Long story short, it'd adversely affect mechs with unusual torso hardpoints and add a new Arm Mount Meta. Plus, PGI has gone as record as saying they will not implement this. Ever.

You have a link to that thread?

[cazidin]

Kaisha, on 25 February 2016 - 08:20 AM, said:

You have a link to that thread?

Sure.

http://mwomercs.com/...of-convergence/

It's a lengthly thread, mind you.

Edited by cazidin, 25 February 2016 - 08:25 AM.

[Revis Volek]

cazidin, on 22 February 2016 - 09:08 AM, said:

Greetings Mechwarriors. Today I have a simple idea on how to mitigate the laser meta and put an end to Alpha Strikes without any new mechanics, just a change to an old, controversial one.

IS Medium Lasers and Medium Pulse Laser ghost heat reduced to 4. (From 6)
Clan ER-Medium Laser and Clan Medium Pulse Laser ghost heat reduced to 3. (Down from 6)

All lasers are now in the same ghost heat group. If you fire one Large Laser, you may fire two medium lasers or medium pulse lasers without incurring any penalty. If you fire two larger lasers and one medium laser you incur a heat penalty on the latter.

All this has done is make me fire the rest of my alpha like .5 seconds later and exacerbates an already dumb and convoluted mechanic that also has a ghost description to most new players.

Ghost as in wtf is it and where does it tell me about it are the questions i hear the most from new pilots concerning Spooky Heat.

Engine Output limits could be a real thing and could add some fun flavor to the game, sizing it properly would have benefit as would an OVER SIZED ONE. Maybe running the RIGHT engine would give you some structure buffs where as OVER SIZING IT would just allow you to fire all weapons without penalty or a power limit being hit resulting in a TOTAL weapon cooldown or something similar.

There are ways to do it, no doubt but i agree i think it would be taken badly by most of the community but maybe im wrong.

Edited by Revis Volek, 25 February 2016 - 08:45 AM.

[Mad Strike]

Just use flamers , i do it all the time and damm they're good.

[Barantor]

pbiggz, on 22 February 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

Boating has also been in every mechwarrior game there ever was. Do you know why? Because its fun easy.

Fixed that for you.

[Sandpit]

brroleg, on 24 February 2016 - 09:04 PM, said:

This is similar to what Iv'e suggested. I guess I just need to stop being lazy and break out photoshop to do a decent image of what I've talked about because it always seems to get lost in translation.

[cazidin]

Sandpit, on 25 February 2016 - 10:16 AM, said:

This is similar to what I've suggested. I guess I just need to stop being lazy and break out photoshop to do a decent image of what I've talked about because it always seems to get lost in translation.

I understand the idea. Only weapons in the arms would converge and hit in the same spot and the weapons in the torsi would fire straight. The problem with this idea is it nerfs every mech that uses torso mounted weapons, such as the Mauler, Mad Dog/Vulture, Atlas, etc. Their weapons become less accurate because of... reasons and those with almost entirely arm mounted weapons, like the Timber Wolf or Marauder are buffed (or just become more meta. Thus, less diversity)

[Quicksilver Aberration]

cazidin, on 25 February 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

I understand the idea. Only weapons in the arms would converge and hit in the same spot and the weapons in the torsi would fire straight. The problem with this idea is it nerfs every mech that uses torso mounted weapons, such as the Mauler, Mad Dog/Vulture, Atlas, etc. Their weapons become less accurate because of... reasons and those with almost entirely arm mounted weapons, like the Timber Wolf or Marauder are buffed (or just become more meta. Thus, less diversity)

Not mention nerfs wide mechs without arm actuators incredibly hard (King Crab, Jagermech, Rifleman, Blackjack, Ebjag).

[Sandpit]

cazidin, on 25 February 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

I understand the idea. Only weapons in the arms would converge and hit in the same spot and the weapons in the torsi would fire straight. The problem with this idea is it nerfs every mech that uses torso mounted weapons, such as the Mauler, Mad Dog/Vulture, Atlas, etc. Their weapons become less accurate because of... reasons and those with almost entirely arm mounted weapons, like the Timber Wolf or Marauder are buffed (or just become more meta. Thus, less diversity)

The torso mounted weapons wouldn't fire "straight, just have a singular reticle.

The torso mounted weapons would still swing into position as the player aims.

The second part of that is to add in a movement penalty based on a weapon's size.

Example
AC20 = .25 seconds to move into pinpoint accuracy
AC5 = .10 seconds

So essentially what happens is that those weapons will still be on target, but if you round a corner and run into an enemy mech, there's going to be a split-second delay for all your weapons to come into perfect convergence. It's the difference in taking something like 2 AC20's all to the CT and taking one to the CT while the other was just a smidge "off" and hits a side torso.

Essentially what it does is slow down convergence without taking it out. The problem with convergence isn't convergence itself, it's the fact that it's instantaneous in every situation without fail.

You could use the reitcle to relay information about this, say when you have perfect convergence it flashes or turns green or something. If it's yellow, you're still going to hit the target (provided your personal aim is true that is), but you may wind up hitting an arm instead of that side torso.

Adding in the delay like I showed in the example above also helps separate the synergy of certain weapon combinations. It also allows PGI to adjust them on a per weapon basis to help add in another mitigating factor to help tone down these instantaneous alphas

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 February 2016 - 11:16 AM, said:

Not mention nerfs wide mechs without arm actuators incredibly hard (King Crab, Jagermech, Rifleman, Blackjack, Ebjag).

i fail to see what arm acuators has to do with it.

The whole system is based on the weapon size, not the chassis it's put in. It doesn't affect any mech itself at all.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Sandpit, on 25 February 2016 - 11:27 AM, said:

The whole system is based on the weapon size, not the chassis it's put in. It doesn't affect any mech itself at all.

I was going off the picture you quoted since you said it is similar, but it will have different effects depending on how wide the mech unless the convergence rate is based on percentage rather than actual angles. Basically mechs that have arms really close to each other (think Urbie) will converge much better than something like the Adder, Ebon Jag, or King Crab which have really wide arm mounts.

Instant convergence is what helps these mechs out with their wide (or for some mechs tall) stature, and it would actually be even better if weapons converged on locked targets for projectile weapons as this is yes another problem with projectile weapons (compared to lasers).

This is and always will be the problem with delayed or imperfect convergence as a "solution" to alphas.

[cazidin]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 February 2016 - 11:16 AM, said:

Not mention nerfs wide mechs without arm actuators incredibly hard (King Crab, Jagermech, Rifleman, Blackjack, Ebjag).

And the poor, poor, side of a barn that is the Awesome.

Sandpit, on 25 February 2016 - 11:27 AM, said:

The torso mounted weapons wouldn't fire "straight, just have a singular reticle.

The torso mounted weapons would still swing into position as the player aims.

The second part of that is to add in a movement penalty based on a weapon's size.

Example
AC20 = .25 seconds to move into pinpoint accuracy
AC5 = .10 seconds

So essentially what happens is that those weapons will still be on target, but if you round a corner and run into an enemy mech, there's going to be a split-second delay for all your weapons to come into perfect convergence. It's the difference in taking something like 2 AC20's all to the CT and taking one to the CT while the other was just a smidge "off" and hits a side torso.

Essentially what it does is slow down convergence without taking it out. The problem with convergence isn't convergence itself, it's the fact that it's instantaneous in every situation without fail.

You could use the reitcle to relay information about this, say when you have perfect convergence it flashes or turns green or something. If it's yellow, you're still going to hit the target (provided your personal aim is true that is), but you may wind up hitting an arm instead of that side torso.

Adding in the delay like I showed in the example above also helps separate the synergy of certain weapon combinations. It also allows PGI to adjust them on a per weapon basis to help add in another mitigating factor to help tone down these instantaneous alphas


i fail to see what arm acuators has to do with it.

The whole system is based on the weapon size, not the chassis it's put in. It doesn't affect any mech itself at all.

Alright, so, lock-on/delayed convergence? I'm not opposed to this idea. Unfortunately PGI has said they won't ever implement it because of technical difficulties. If PGI implements a new mechanic for high alphas, I'd like to see a proper heat scale. If we work with what we got, which is unfortunately Ghost Heat the only way I can think to mitigate high alphas is to reduce the amount of lasers you can fire simultaneously and if you go above the heat cap the penalties must be harsher.

Again, though, your idea is a valid one and it could work. It's not one i'd personally choose but it's a good one.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 February 2016 - 11:49 AM, said:

I was going off the picture you quoted since you said it is similar, but it will have different effects depending on how wide the mech unless the convergence rate is based on percentage rather than actual angles. Basically mechs that have arms really close to each other (think Urbie) will converge much better than something like the Adder, Ebon Jag, or King Crab which have really wide arm mounts.

Instant convergence is what helps these mechs out with their wide (or for some mechs tall) stature, and it would actually be even better if weapons converged on locked targets for projectile weapons as this is yes another problem with projectile weapons (compared to lasers).

This is and always will be the problem with delayed or imperfect convergence as a "solution" to alphas.

Well, I think we already have proof of that on the wider mechs. Even with the perfect convergence that we have now, their convergence is considered "inferior" to thinner mechs like the Urban Mech or the Black Knight.

[Sandpit]

cazidin, on 25 February 2016 - 11:51 AM, said:

And the poor, poor, side of a barn that is the Awesome.



Alright, so, lock-on/delayed convergence? I'm not opposed to this idea. Unfortunately PGI has said they won't ever implement it because of technical difficulties. If PGI implements a new mechanic for high alphas, I'd like to see a proper heat scale. If we work with what we got, which is unfortunately Ghost Heat the only way I can think to mitigate high alphas is to reduce the amount of lasers you can fire simultaneously and if you go above the heat cap the penalties must be harsher.

Again, though, your idea is a valid one and it could work. It's not one i'd personally choose but it's a good one.



Well, I think we already have proof of that on the wider mechs. Even with the perfect convergence that we have now, their convergence is considered "inferior" to thinner mechs like the Urban Mech or the Black Knight.

it's not a lock, it's simply a visual effect to let the player know when the "optimal" convergence has been reached. It wouldn't require an actual lock to converge, simply the time delay mechanic I mentioned earlier.

Think of it like this. The weapons themselves are on swivels inside their hardpoint location allowing it to move in order to track targets. The weapons in the side torsos aren't mounted as static weapons, they're mounted on swivels that allow them to make constant adjustments to ensure a pilot is hitting where the targeting system is aiming.

So it may only move 2 inches to the right (anyone who's had weapons experience knows that it doesn't take much to change the path and trajectory of a bullet with very minor adjustments to the aiming point and that goes up exponentially the more distance you're shooting across) to ensure it hits precisely where aimed.

So those little swivels would move at a base speed (which right now is instant convergence), then you add in a modifier based on the weapon. Big heavier weapons would move slower, smaller lighter weapons would move faster which would give them different convergence "speeds"

Now before anyone goes there, we're talking small modifiers. Less than half a second and the aiming point wouldn't be so far off that you'd miss your target but it makes it more possible and likely that if you swing your mech around very quickly and fire off everything in a quick desperate alpha, all of your shots aren't going to hit dead center of your aiming point, they will be off according to that weapons movement modifier.




Just for example purposes and visual help, take the above pic. If every weapon in the side torsos was mounted on a swivel system like this one and then their convergence speed was modified based on the weapon itself, you solve a lot of issues with convergence without requiring any major overhauls to any systems already in the game.

You don't piss off players who are against a CoF system because the accuracy modifications are almost negligible but just enough to ensure weapons fired from multiple locations on your mech instantly will be "off" just enough to where you're wind up spreading that damage across 2 hit locations (a side torso instead of CT for example) instead of taking all that damage in one location.

You also dont' require any lock on requirements for the system so you still keep the direct fire feel of the weapons and targeting system in general.


another visual aid

note the cannon mounted on the nose of the helo. it moves on that swivel to track targets as opposed to being a stationary weapon. Now imagine that's how side torso mounted weapons worked. They would require a split second to get that perfect convergence to ensure every shot hits the same location.

[cazidin]

Sandpit, on 25 February 2016 - 12:42 PM, said:

it's not a lock, it's simply a visual effect to let the player know when the "optimal" convergence has been reached. It wouldn't require an actual lock to converge, simply the time delay mechanic I mentioned earlier.

Think of it like this. The weapons themselves are on swivels inside their hardpoint location allowing it to move in order to track targets. The weapons in the side torsos aren't mounted as static weapons, they're mounted on swivels that allow them to make constant adjustments to ensure a pilot is hitting where the targeting system is aiming.

So it may only move 2 inches to the right (anyone who's had weapons experience knows that it doesn't take much to change the path and trajectory of a bullet with very minor adjustments to the aiming point and that goes up exponentially the more distance you're shooting across) to ensure it hits precisely where aimed.

So those little swivels would move at a base speed (which right now is instant convergence), then you add in a modifier based on the weapon. Big heavier weapons would move slower, smaller lighter weapons would move faster which would give them different convergence "speeds"

Now before anyone goes there, we're talking small modifiers. Less than half a second and the aiming point wouldn't be so far off that you'd miss your target but it makes it more possible and likely that if you swing your mech around very quickly and fire off everything in a quick desperate alpha, all of your shots aren't going to hit dead center of your aiming point, they will be off according to that weapons movement modifier.




Just for example purposes and visual help, take the above pic. If every weapon in the side torsos was mounted on a swivel system like this one and then their convergence speed was modified based on the weapon itself, you solve a lot of issues with convergence without requiring any major overhauls to any systems already in the game.

You don't piss off players who are against a CoF system because the accuracy modifications are almost negligible but just enough to ensure weapons fired from multiple locations on your mech instantly will be "off" just enough to where you're wind up spreading that damage across 2 hit locations (a side torso instead of CT for example) instead of taking all that damage in one location.

You also dont' require any lock on requirements for the system so you still keep the direct fire feel of the weapons and targeting system in general.


another visual aid

note the cannon mounted on the nose of the helo. it moves on that swivel to track targets as opposed to being a stationary weapon. Now imagine that's how side torso mounted weapons worked. They would require a split second to get that perfect convergence to ensure every shot hits the same location.

Your solution isn't convoluted or random enough.

Jokes aside though. Okay, I see what you're getting at. Both the arms and torsi (or just torsi but just bare with me) would need about half a second to acquire optimal convergence on their target otherwise there would be a cone of fire like spread. That is to say, the shots may go where you aim but not precisely where you aim at.

I would personally argue that this could be synced to Target Info Gathering but I like the idea. The question is would PGI implement it or would they go the easy way and change ghost heat?

[jaxjace]

cazidin, on 24 February 2016 - 08:53 PM, said:

I respectfully disagree with increasing laser duration. It would either be too weak to have any noticeable difference or too strong and they become terrible weapons. Yes, the unholy trinity is a powerful weapon group but pulse lasers should be rapid pulsing, low beam duration weapon. Perhaps more heat?

Did you ever play MW4?

Pulse lasers in there were perfect, they were constant pulse pulse pulse, regardless of the size, they were almost a constant WUB WUB WUB, now this made them EXTREMELY hot, but they were powerful too, Lasers were interesting in that game, worth looking into.

Edited by jaxjace, 29 February 2016 - 07:46 PM.