252 replies to this topic

[Dingo Battler]

If they use heat caps/powerdraw/#of weapons, I've already theorycrafted a TBR that can vom high alphas all day long

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fcfb330382ef41a

41+5(dbl tap UAC) for 46 dmg alphas at almost no heat. Merely 2 dmg below the current laser vom.

If they use cooldown caps, I'll just vom the longest range alphas I can, run away, cooldown, rinse and repeat.

All this will do is shift the laser meta away, the size of alphas will still be as high.

[El Bandito]

KBurn85, on 27 February 2016 - 01:03 AM, said:

If they use heat caps/powerdraw/#of weapons, I've already theorycrafted a TBR that can vom high alphas all day long

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fcfb330382ef41a

41+5(dbl tap UAC) for 46 dmg alphas at almost no heat. Merely 2 dmg below the current laser vom.

If they use cooldown caps, I'll just vom the longest range alphas I can, run away, cooldown, rinse and repeat.

All this will do is shift the laser meta away, the size of alphas will still be as high.

That's a pretty lolzy build. If the new changes forces one to bring such builds, then so much the better.

Davegt27, on 27 February 2016 - 12:54 AM, said:

Old ANG proverb don’t complain you will only make things worse

I predict things will get worse that is you won’t like the changes

Complaining got rid of the poptart meta, which was much worse than what we have now, due to making the game too static. I'm all for complaining.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 February 2016 - 01:18 AM.

[Sandpit]

DGTLDaemon, on 27 February 2016 - 12:45 AM, said:

So we are back to square one: what does he mean by "alphas" - firing multiple weapons of the same type simultaneously, or simply firing multiple weapons simultaneously? I guess we'll have to wait and see...

just going by the way he was talking it sounded to me like alphas period, regardless of weapon types used in the alpha whether that be boating or assorted

[NextGame]

ghost heat going away = great, multiple years overdue.

replacement system = not getting my hopes up for it being any less idiotic. remains to be seen,

[Sir Roland MXIII]

MoonUnitBeta, on 27 February 2016 - 12:32 AM, said:

ACs.. missiles...

How is power draw going to stop weapons that use fractional power draw, compared to, say, every energy weapon?

Fair point. And honestly as I began to think on that general idea, the more problematic it seemed to become. Regulating power from engine based on rating vs weight of mech, standard engine vs xl.... yeah, I really don't think that's feasible, at least not with the paradigm as set by the lore.

Power Capacity as a system might've worked if the game had been designed for it from the start, but having given it some thought I really don't see that being an option now.

[MrMadguy]

If they will do something like that, then they will have to unnerf Gausses, PPCs, AC/10s, AC/20s too. I will agree with this change only in this case. I, personally, never used high Alpha or laser vomit build - all my build are vary diverse. There just a few weapons, I try to avoid - like LBX, MPL and all small lasers. All other weapons are widely used. So, if weapons, that were overnerfed and literally removed from the game, will be fixed - it will be extremely good change for me. But if will be some stupid clunky mechanic, that will simply restrict your ability to shoot on the top of current nerfs - then this game won't be worth playing anymore.

[Lord Perversor]

The Atlas Overlord, on 26 February 2016 - 09:02 PM, said:

So light mechs can still spam their 30 points.... assaults and heavies nerfed again.

Moral of the story: Learn to use light mechs, b/c they're removing the only good thing that the big guys have.

Hmm maybe not.

Light Alpha 30 points - keeps working as normal.

Heavy and Assaults Alpha - 60+ points can't shoot all at once for penalties, so why not 30 alpha wait half sec /1 sec another 30 alpha (firing twice the firepower a light does)

Alpha strike or the push 1 button fire everything ability it's something that should be done rarely (like overheating to death) not your everyday option when facing enemies.

[Sandpit]

I dunno guys, like I said, it just didn't sound like a Power Draw system and he kept being a stickler about how he and Paul have discussed the heat scale issue.

[Mystere]

Sandpit, on 26 February 2016 - 08:37 PM, said:

I don't think it's PDC, it sounded more like a timed system, whether that be heat or something else

Global cool downs, yay!

[Mycrus]

Sandpit, on 26 February 2016 - 09:29 PM, said:

All I can say is that it sounded like he was really talking about an entirely new heat system. It was just the wording he used on a few things

Nothing to see here... once they realize its hard™ to implement whatever half baked clam bake idea russ had he will just change his position to 'there arent too many people that get affected by ghost heat anyway'...

[Random Carnage]

Back in the day, I drove M113 APC's for a light armoured recon unit (First Scots Black Watch). If anyone had tried to tell us back then that within the next 30 years APC's would have technology that stopped RPG's from striking, we'd have laughed our **** off, then told them to fu*k off. In a thousand years, anything is possible.

[Parnage Winters]

You know I just expect them to once again screw over the mechs with natural boating builds like the swayback and nova. Because big scary alpha is super scary.

[Random Carnage]

Sir Roland MXIII, on 27 February 2016 - 02:08 AM, said:

Fair point. And honestly as I began to think on that general idea, the more problematic it seemed to become. Regulating power from engine based on rating vs weight of mech, standard engine vs xl.... yeah, I really don't think that's feasible, at least not with the paradigm as set by the lore.

Power Capacity as a system might've worked if the game had been designed for it from the start, but having given it some thought I really don't see that being an option now.

Don't over think it. Power draw can apply to all energy weapons - and should. AC's can be regulated through other mechanics such as multiple round bursts, bullet drop, having to lead targets, ammo depletion, possibly even a recoil effect stat applied to each ballistic that calculates torso twist or loss of momentum if too much AC fired at once. Not a fan of jam pct as this very rarely happens even today, and should not be as severe a limiting factor as the game currently employs. The reality is that NO weapon that jammed like UAC's do would EVER make it to the front lines. They do in game because the rest is so borked that they have a place. That's a reflection on poor design more than anything else.

Basically, balance AC's to fire on auto (continual dakka) for as long as you hold down the trigger, and regulate damage per AC size. Heat can build with sustained fire but seriously, you can get auto cannons fuggin hot and they wont fail, even when glowing cherry red. This current 3 alpha shutdown BS just shows how little the devs know about these things.

[PFC Carsten]

Sandpit, on 26 February 2016 - 09:07 PM, said:

One thing he stated was that he didn't like the way the game played out many times now as you round a corner or crest a hill and just melt from a steady stream of alphas.

Just took him about 2-3 years to realize that this is destroying lots of fun and of tactical opportunities.

[El Bandito]

Parnage Winters, on 27 February 2016 - 03:16 AM, said:

You know I just expect them to once again screw over the mechs with natural boating builds like the swayback and nova. Because big scary alpha is super scary.

Just because a mech is designed to carry a lot of guns, it doesn't mean they are immune to penalties. It only means they can keep shooting if one side is gone.

[happy mech]

timers?

and what about fixed heat cap?
what about engine and non-engine heatsinks being equally useful?
what about correcting the damage, heat, duration, range values vs the weight to reflect the true value of the weapon?
the weapons in mwo are not standardized, the performance/tonnage ratio should be a constant (just look at streaks vs clan streaks, how the f is possible that clans have 360 vs 270 range and 1 vs 1.5 weight? with NO drawbacks?)


what to do
-> set fixed heat cap (30). employ a progressive movement penalty until the cap. employ a progressive internal damage penalty to the systems used after the cap (if override safety shutdown, for example damage to legs if move, damage to weapon if fire weapon)
-> moving mech only influences dissipation
-> make engine and non-engine heatsinks have SAME dissipation!!
-> remove consumables
-> remove the no-los 2s lock
-> remove all quirks
-> balance the weapons, standardize them based on the performance/weigt metric (create a mech that has access to both clan and innersphere tech, you will soon find out which are the best weapons, then just compare only one type bracket(srms, lrms, lasers, ppcs, ballistics) of equally loaded weight (weapons + heatsinks and ammunition, for example 1ll vs 5ml or 4ml+1dhs or 2mpl+1dhs or 1ml+4dhs etc) and then one range bracket (0-150, 150-300, 300-450, 450-600, 600-750, 750-900, 900+) of equally loaded weight (for example 2ppcs+3dhs vs 1ac20+3tons at 0-150, 150-300, etc, find out what is best for each bracket))
suggestions - make uacs use 250% heat on double tap instead of jam chance (currently too powerful or useless), make clan narc and ssrms range like IS range, make clan ballistics less damage and less cooldown but singleshot
for lasers, have constant beam damage per second (damage/duration), damage/(weight*heat) and range/recycle (recycle is time between two shots, including duration etc) ratios
for ballistics, have constant damage/heat and dps*range/(weight+2tons of ammo) ((damage*range)/(recycle*(weight+2))) ratios
for missiles, have constant dps/weight (damage/(recycle*weight)), range for lrms, range for srms and ssrms, range for narc and damage/heat ratios
-> standardize the mechs of the same tonnage (unlock the clan fixed equipment and upgrades (keep upgrades in fixed slots), mostly)
suggestions - double mech structure so crits are more meaningful
-> add minor quirks to differentiate between variants

create a game mode and maps where tonnage determines your battle effectiveness (otherwise, what else is the tonnage for? that means, 5 locusts = 1 atlas)
-> have a pool of tonnage that you can fill with any amount of mechs
OR have a team pool that gets reduced every time someone reinforces a mech, this can be affected by other map objectives (holding base)
-> standardize them mechs based on performance/weight

[Random Carnage]

MoonUnitBeta, on 27 February 2016 - 12:32 AM, said:

ACs.. missiles...

How is power draw going to stop weapons that use fractional power draw, compared to, say, every energy weapon?

It shouldn't. Laser vomit is the problem, not AC's. AC's can potentially be powerful, sure, but it is very situational. The classic quad UAC10 for example packs a punch, but this is spread over 12 rounds each doing 3.33 damage, has flight time requiring target leading at range, bullet drop, jam chance, and ammo depletion concerns. Tonne for tonne, the AC should out damage lasers given the drawbacks, and this includes the ability to sustain fire. To counter this, the energy boats get to load out to match their engine capacity, and either sustain fire at a lesser rate but with zero flight time, no target leading, no ammo worries and less damage spread to worry about, or drop considerable PPFLD at the expense of high heat generation.

[Destoroyah]

I like the concept of a Capacitor where every weapon drains energy from the capacitor with larger weapons drawing more then smaller ones. The capacitor recharges constantly and rapidly(like 3-4 secs from 0%to 100%) so chainfiring isn't really effecting the capacitor but alphas do. If you overtax the capacitor you can't fire any weapons till the capacitor reaches 50% and the greater you overtax the capacitor the slower the capacitor recharges to get to 50% reset. So the greater the alpha the greater the penalty.

also they could make the different weight classes have different sizes of capacitors so lights will also have to worry about there capacitor management and assaults would have slightly larger capacitors so they can bring more of there considerable firepower to bare as they were built for.

Edited by Destoroyah, 27 February 2016 - 03:52 AM.

[PFC Carsten]

Deathlike, on 26 February 2016 - 09:08 PM, said:

I'll believe it when I see it.

When the bar of a terrible concept (Ghost Heat) is set to being compared to the "next best thing" (which could end up being Ghost Heat rebranded), I have concerns.

It begins with Paul.

I think he should really play the game instead of juggling with abstract statistics and excel formulae,

[GreenHell]

Ghost heat sucks... a lot. Glad to see it go. Sounds to me that they (PGI) hate alphas and the high alpha meta. Not sure exactly what they plan on doing about it, but I'm also worried about a few things...

My main fears are that they would simply base things on the "FirePower" stat, in order to (in Russ' words) "encompass the whole problem". This wording worried me about a few things:
-I don't want a "global negative cooldown quirk" based on the firepower stat.
-I'd be wary of a "heat spike" based on firepower as well, if only because it limits assaults in every aspect.

My other concerns:
-If it only gives a heat spike when everything is fired at once, it might work but we'd need more info on the system. Too much heat and people will simply switch to DPS builds.
-If it gives a massive "cooldown" to all weapons, then people will again go to DPS builds if it's too extreme.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to hear that Ghost Heat is leaving. I myself am guilty of running "alpha builds" in my own play, and I've trained that way for a while now. I just also have my own concerns about what the replacement might be.