105 replies to this topic

[Monkey Lover]

Nightshade24, on 27 February 2016 - 04:42 PM, said:

Tell me how deadly a Gargoyle LRM boat will be or a 1 missile hardpoint summoner?

I don't think lrms are deadly at all but they're the weapon that would benefit the most from ammo quirks because of the crazy amount you have to bring to make any kills.

Summoner has 5 points by the way. It makes a good lrm boat but the maddog makes an even better because you have 6 with energy. It to doesn't have endo and would maybe get same quirks.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 28 February 2016 - 10:26 AM.

[Realizer]

This thread just completely validates the point Russ made, if he were to unlock endo on summoner everyone would just cry till it's unlocked on every omni-mech and then there would be no point to having the two different kinds. If omni mechs can change pods and change armor weights there would be really no point to take a battle mech besides the engine swaps. So I'm sure if endo was unlocked the next thing people would cry about is engine size and wanting to change that ect. Seems like a bunch of people just wanting things to be easier for them so they don't have to rely on skill as much as load out, I'm glad Russ isn't giving in on this one.

[Andi Nagasia]

Realizer, on 28 February 2016 - 10:45 AM, said:

This thread just completely validates the point Russ made, if he were to unlock endo on summoner everyone would just cry till it's unlocked on every omni-mech and then there would be no point to having the two different kinds. If omni mechs can change pods and change armor weights there would be really no point to take a battle mech besides the engine swaps. So I'm sure if endo was unlocked the next thing people would cry about is engine size and wanting to change that ect. Seems like a bunch of people just wanting things to be easier for them so they don't have to rely on skill as much as load out, I'm glad Russ isn't giving in on this one.

Just because you want something doesnt mean you will get it, you try for it, but theres no Guarantee,
"I want PGI to Pay Me to Play their Game!!! See see how Bad(Stupid) some Ideas can be,

also can i just Trade in my NVA-Prime Omni for a NVA-Prime BattleMech?

[Wolfways]

Trauglodyte, on 28 February 2016 - 09:22 AM, said:

Wolf, I don't get your point here. You want Russ to unlock Endo for Clan mechs but you're firmly against getting a quirk on a specific couple of mechs that would mirror a tonnage gain similar to Endo. It is the same thing but it keeps to the lore. Nobody really cares about quirks. Do you really care that the one Locust gets a -50% energy weapon recycle? Then why on Earth would you care about this?

You mean the "ammo quirks"? What about mechs that don't need ammo but do need heat sinks?
I play stock weapon mechs. My IS mechs get Endo and engine size change if needed so they can use the stock weapons. How am I supposed to run a MDD-Prime? I can't because Russ decided to follow 1 set of rules for clan customization and ignore any rules for IS customization.
Pgi have such a hardon for heat that they made a heat system that is punishing for customized (DHS) IS mechs which naturally makes clan mechs almost unplayable (with stock weapons) because they are designed to run DHS already.

[Monkey Lover]

Andi Nagasia, on 28 February 2016 - 10:57 AM, said:

,
"I want PGI to Pay Me to Play their Game!!! See see how Bad(Stupid) some Ideas can be,

So when's that 100k+ buck tournament starting again? Hehe

[FupDup]

Wolfways, on 28 February 2016 - 11:02 AM, said:

You mean the "ammo quirks"? What about mechs that don't need ammo but do need heat sinks?
I play stock weapon mechs. My IS mechs get Endo and engine size change if needed so they can use the stock weapons. How am I supposed to run a MDD-Prime? I can't because Russ decided to follow 1 set of rules for clan customization and ignore any rules for IS customization.
Pgi have such a hardon for heat that they made a heat system that is punishing for customized (DHS) IS mechs which naturally makes clan mechs almost unplayable (with stock weapons) because they are designed to run DHS already.

Well, for your pet Vulture in particular, that mech doesn't have a weakness in firepower (ammo quirks are intended to improve firepower by reducing the tonnage required for weapons) if the user is equipping the right pods.

That gundam's weakness is purely durability.

[Trauglodyte]

Quote

You mean the "ammo quirks"? What about mechs that don't need ammo but do need heat sinks?
I play stock weapon mechs. My IS mechs get Endo and engine size change if needed so they can use the stock weapons. How am I supposed to run a MDD-Prime? I can't because Russ decided to follow 1 set of rules for clan customization and ignore any rules for IS customization.
Pgi have such a hardon for heat that they made a heat system that is punishing for customized (DHS) IS mechs which naturally makes clan mechs almost unplayable (with stock weapons) because they are designed to run DHS already.

In that case, you're just quibbling. Not having tonnage to even field a half way decent mech is one thing. Taking too many weaposn and shorting yourself on heat sinks, on purpose, is your own fault.

[Wolfways]

Realizer, on 28 February 2016 - 10:45 AM, said:

This thread just completely validates the point Russ made, if he were to unlock endo on summoner everyone would just cry till it's unlocked on every omni-mech and then there would be no point to having the two different kinds. If omni mechs can change pods and change armor weights there would be really no point to take a battle mech besides the engine swaps. So I'm sure if endo was unlocked the next thing people would cry about is engine size and wanting to change that ect. Seems like a bunch of people just wanting things to be easier for them so they don't have to rely on skill as much as load out, I'm glad Russ isn't giving in on this one.

Yes because pointing out how one faction is being favoured by customization means a lack of skill

FupDup, on 28 February 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

Well, for your pet Vulture in particular, that mech doesn't have a weakness in firepower (ammo quirks are intended to improve firepower by reducing the tonnage required for weapons) if the user is equipping the right pods.

That gundam's weakness is purely durability.

No the weakness is that the heat system screws clan mechs because they run far too hot.

Trauglodyte, on 28 February 2016 - 11:05 AM, said:

In that case, you're just quibbling. Not having tonnage to even field a half way decent mech is one thing. Taking too many weaposn and shorting yourself on heat sinks, on purpose, is your own fault.

Too many weapons? It's stock. It was designed to use those weapons.

IS customization = Do pretty much anything you want. Even keeping the stock weapons is easy.
Clan customization = Remove/reduce weapons.

Edited by Wolfways, 28 February 2016 - 11:13 AM.

[FupDup]

Wolfways, on 28 February 2016 - 11:10 AM, said:

No the weakness is that the heat system screws clan mechs because they run far too hot.

Builds that are reasonably heat efficient are possible to build, they just require you to use non-stock builds...but since that's your fetish, not much can be done about that.

You might be able to mitigate it somewhat if you were to loosen your fixation on those builds (e.g. try to make the mech "similar" to stock rather than having the exact stock guns). Something like this Vulture "Alternate Prime".

[Realizer]

Wolfways, on 28 February 2016 - 11:12 AM, said:

Yes because pointing out how one faction is being favoured by customization means a lack of skill


No the weakness is that the heat system screws clan mechs because they run far too hot.


Too many weapons? It's stock. It was designed to use those weapons.

IS customization = Do pretty much anything you want. Even keeping the stock weapons is easy.
Clan customization = Remove/reduce weapons.

The heat system is changing soon for all mechs, and clans now have IIC and soon Kodiak battlemech with a hero. Diversity is coming but it can't be added overnight. /thread

[Trauglodyte]

Wolf, I'll give you that Clan tech is really hot. But, heat is something that we have to manage, whether that be on the IS side or Clan side. You don't have to fire off everything in a single shot. Do you think that the Awesome is easy to run stock? Cause it isn't. I can't even play the mech the way it was intended thanks to the moron player base abusing weapons which thusly created the Ghost Heat system. Ever try running a Cicada 2A or any of the Jenners stock? Heat is a resource; don't abuse it and you'll be fine.

[Wolfways]

FupDup, on 28 February 2016 - 11:14 AM, said:

Builds that are reasonably heat efficient are possible to build, they just require you to use non-stock builds...but since that's your fetish, not much can be done about that.

You might be able to mitigate it somewhat if you were to loosen your fixation on those builds (e.g. try to make the mech "similar" to stock rather than having the exact stock guns). Something like this Vulture "Alternate Prime".

I refuse to lose the LPL range so the best I've done is reducing the LRM's to 2xLRM5. I hated it though.
But that's my problem with the game. If you can't use BT mechs it's not a BT game.

[Wolfways]

Trauglodyte, on 28 February 2016 - 11:19 AM, said:

Wolf, I'll give you that Clan tech is really hot. But, heat is something that we have to manage, whether that be on the IS side or Clan side. You don't have to fire off everything in a single shot. Do you think that the Awesome is easy to run stock? Cause it isn't. I can't even play the mech the way it was intended thanks to the moron player base abusing weapons which thusly created the Ghost Heat system. Ever try running a Cicada 2A or any of the Jenners stock? Heat is a resource; don't abuse it and you'll be fine.

There's a huge difference between a stock weapon IS mech with Endo and different engine size than a completely stock Clan mech. Try running a MDD-Prime and see how often you can fire those LPL's.

[Trauglodyte]

Dude, I'm with you. That is why I normally moved both Lrg Pulses into one arm and kept the Md Pulses in the other. You can do it, though, if you treat your weak side Lrg Pulse as a hotter Md Pulse. In other words, you peak and pop with either one, depending upon your positioning, and then use the other as a hammer when in range. The stock Maddog Prime, like all of the stock builds sans the double Gauss build, is essentially a 60 ton Light mech - you fire what you've got and then you hide until you cool off, using your LRMs as supplemental damage. Believe me when I say that I'm not disagreeing with you. The one thing that you've got to realize that the Battletech mech designers were absolute idiots. No military leader would accept a piece of hardware that was only partially done. When you build and deploy a tank, you don't do so with only some of the armor on it. If you can't fit all of the armor on with the designed weapon, you either reduce the weapon size or you build a bigger tank. BUT, the FASA people thought it was ok to under armor mechs and over arm them. Thus, we have what we have today. Move past that and think of how the mech should be designed given the original blueprint. Reduce the LRM racks, add heat sinks and armor, enjoy.

[FupDup]

Wolfways, on 28 February 2016 - 11:21 AM, said:

I refuse to lose the LPL range so the best I've done is reducing the LRM's to 2xLRM5. I hated it though.
But that's my problem with the game. If you can't use BT mechs it's not a BT game.

The Vulture wasn't even that good in BT, so it's actually kind of "fitting" that the stock builds have similar deficiencies here as they did in BT.

Even the heat was a problem for it in TT. The stock Prime has 12 DHS for 2 LRM20, 2 LPL, and 2 MPL. If you fire all four long-ranged guns, you create 32 points of heat in one turn, which is quite a bit more than 12 DHS can handle (they handle 24 heat).

But if you only use EITHER the LRMs OR LPLs at any time, you are going to have literally wasted your tonnage on weapons that you cannot fire.

It doesn't even work as a bracket build with the way it comes stock. If it replaced those LPLs with some MPLs, it would actually make sense to use the LRMs at range and then switch to MPL for close defense.

But if you have two different long-range groups (LPLs and LRMs are both long range), the mech should be designed to fire both long-range groups at least one time without creating much heat or else it's an objectively, scientifically flawed mech design.

[Mystere]

Realizer, on 28 February 2016 - 10:45 AM, said:

This thread just completely validates the point Russ made, if he were to unlock endo on summoner everyone would just cry till it's unlocked on every omni-mech and then there would be no point to having the two different kinds. If omni mechs can change pods and change armor weights there would be really no point to take a battle mech besides the engine swaps. So I'm sure if endo was unlocked the next thing people would cry about is engine size and wanting to change that ect. Seems like a bunch of people just wanting things to be easier for them so they don't have to rely on skill as much as load out, I'm glad Russ isn't giving in on this one.

Andi Nagasia, on 28 February 2016 - 10:57 AM, said:

Just because you want something doesnt mean you will get it, you try for it, but theres no Guarantee,
"I want PGI to Pay Me to Play their Game!!! See see how Bad(Stupid) some Ideas can be,

also can i just Trade in my NVA-Prime Omni for a NVA-Prime BattleMech?

You're both seriously underestimating the power of the Whine.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Wolfways, on 28 February 2016 - 11:12 AM, said:

No the weakness is that the heat system screws clan mechs because they run far too hot.

I actually like this. If you want the range and the damage, you have to give up something else. That something is heat; its the major thing that sets limits on Clantech

Now, on the other hand, many IS quirks bring their tech up to a similar level, but without the drawbacks.

See: "We don't need Quirks, we need causal ratios!"

Edited by Brandarr Gunnarson, 28 February 2016 - 10:26 PM.

[Nightshade24]

Monkey Lover, on 28 February 2016 - 10:24 AM, said:

I don't think lrms are deadly at all but they're the weapon that would benefit the most from ammo quirks because of the crazy amount you have to bring to make any kills.

Summoner has 5 points by the way. It makes a good lrm boat but the maddog makes an even better because you have 6 with energy. It to doesn't have endo and would maybe get same quirks.

However the Mad Dog doesn't have the speed and Jumpjet advantage, and the common Summoner LRM boat is 5 LRM 10's. The common mad dog build is a 6 LRM 5 4 Medium lasers (for 6 missile slot build).

The Summoner is already a very strong competitor if not a better LRM boat than the Mad Dog.
If you quirk the summoner to be superior in every way to the Mad Dog in LRM capabilities than I do question this so called ballance because it already out does the mad dog in maneuverability, speed, and agility.

[Chuck Jager]

Are we really using STOCK mechs as a balancing variable. They are crap 90% of the time. It is obvious, but we all have the ability to customize. They are the bone that was thrown to the die hards, but remember that the trial mechs had to be changed to soften the seal clubbing on these POS builds.

I am not 100% anti lore, but honestly many stock builds are just crap in the game we play online and do not make for a good argument for anything.

[Anakha]

Call it a fixed JJ weight reduction for the 5 summoner JJ's and give it an extra 2.5 tons if you wont give it endo. I don't care what you call it but the chassis needs more available tonnage for wpns.