105 replies to this topic

[Nightshade24]

FupDup, on 28 February 2016 - 11:14 AM, said:

Builds that are reasonably heat efficient are possible to build, they just require you to use non-stock builds...but since that's your fetish, not much can be done about that.

You might be able to mitigate it somewhat if you were to loosen your fixation on those builds (e.g. try to make the mech "similar" to stock rather than having the exact stock guns). Something like this Vulture "Alternate Prime".

That build is a little very cold to be honest... I can do just fine with twin LRM 20's, more ammo, and 4 Medium pulse lasers.

I should say though stock mech "fetish" is valid reasoning... nearly all summoners are heat neutral in lore but in game their stock- even though it barely has any weapons, is pretty hot. A little disappointing really.

[Lily from animove]

theta123, on 27 February 2016 - 04:25 AM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/OmniMech

It clearly says that Engines & structure are hardwired and cannot be replaced without extensive re-design of a mech

But it also mentions, its theorethically possible

you mean like the extensive time a usual battletech needs when being reconfigured? But battlemechs in MWO still cna be changed even if lore says they go to garage a LONG time. So adjustable omnis wouldn't be that far off.

At leats JJ's and DHS should be unlocked. could help some of the clanners. yet no all.

Realizer, on 27 February 2016 - 11:11 AM, said:

What he said was, he's not going to unlock it because it's a slippery slope that never ends. If he unlocks endo on the summoner it will turn into people asking nonstop to just unlock them all. Then it becomes screw it just do whatever everybody wants with no regard to anything else.

what does it screw over? all current top clanenrs are those having it basically "unlocked" already. except DWF which doesn't needs anything unlocked because it needs the slots for equip and pew pew.

Unlocking this would do nothing then helping the underdog mechs while not actually buffing the ones who already enjoy the gimmick. The only true issue would be handling the ES structure slots and where they would have to go, since they are fixed by lore too.

Edited by Lily from animove, 29 February 2016 - 03:57 AM.

[Wolfways]

Chuck Jager, on 28 February 2016 - 10:28 PM, said:

Are we really using STOCK mechs as a balancing variable. They are crap 90% of the time. It is obvious, but we all have the ability to customize. They are the bone that was thrown to the die hards, but remember that the trial mechs had to be changed to soften the seal clubbing on these POS builds.

I am not 100% anti lore, but honestly many stock builds are just crap in the game we play online and do not make for a good argument for anything.

Of course stock mechs are crap in MWO. Pgi designed the game that way so players were forced to upgrade the mechs to free up more weight and be able to add more DHS so that they worked in the crap heat system. Unfortunately that system completely screws clan because clan stock mechs generally run hotter than IS stock mechs.
You are supposed to customize IS mechs. You cannot customize clan mechs other than remove/reduce weaponry. But I suppose that does make the anti-clan brigade happy.
i.e. IS mechs are upgraded, clan mechs are nerfed. IS can easily use stock weapons and clan can't.
It's the same reason trial mechs were changed. MWO built for customized mechs (or should I say meta?). Just another FU to BT lore by pgi.

[FupDup]

Nightshade24, on 29 February 2016 - 01:50 AM, said:

That build is a little very cold to be honest... I can do just fine with twin LRM 20's, more ammo, and 4 Medium pulse lasers.

An estimated time-to-overheat of 14 seconds (as per Smurfys) isn't what I consider to be "cold" running.

The ALRM15's are also about more than just packing in more Dubs, they also outperform the LRM20's anyways.

Edited by FupDup, 29 February 2016 - 07:41 AM.

[CDLord HHGD]

pbiggz, on 27 February 2016 - 11:00 AM, said:

The moment lore impedes gameplay is the moment it should be tossed aside. Entertaining gameplay is more important than one that slavishly follows rules set out in books written in the 1980s.

The moment they add some lore the proper way, you'll see it isn't.

[pbiggz]

cdlord, on 29 February 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

The moment they add some lore the proper way, you'll see it isn't.

Thats not always possible. Lore is an important tool, but you can't use the same tool to solve all your problems.

[CDLord HHGD]

pbiggz, on 29 February 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

Thats not always possible. Lore is an important tool, but you can't use the same tool to solve all your problems.

Never said it was the solution. It's the ruleset. You can't math if you don't follow the ruleset. IDC what the equation is, it just has to follow the tenets set by that ruleset.

[pbiggz]

cdlord, on 29 February 2016 - 11:57 AM, said:

Never said it was the solution. It's the ruleset. You can't math if you don't follow the ruleset. IDC what the equation is, it just has to follow the tenets set by that ruleset.

If the ruleset sucks, make a new one. There are people here who think the summoner shouldnt get endo, not because its OP, or they think quirks are better, but because the summoner "isn't supposed to have endo". Why? What difference does it make? Its an abstract concept that only applies in the mechlab, and in many cases, it does so in a way that negatively effects gameplay.

In this case, the lore is damaging the gameplay experience, so it should be cast aside. We've done this before.

Living legends had ALL of its own values. Weapon tonnages, damage values, armour values, engines, etc. They made a rule set completely on their own rather than just following BT rules, because TT values are borderline useless beyond setting a general precedent for what weapons, equipment and mechs are supposed to do. Best example? Again, the summoner, is meant to be fast, hard hitting striker. In mechwarrior, its relatively fast, but not maneuverable, and most definitely not hard hitting. Why? Because the rule set has made it so. In living legends the summoner is terrifying, because they changed the rules. If you can't get behind that, then go play HBS 3025 battletech because thats the game you want, not this.

[CDLord HHGD]

pbiggz, on 29 February 2016 - 12:04 PM, said:

If the ruleset sucks, make a new one. There are people here who think the summoner shouldnt get endo, not because its OP, or they think quirks are better, but because the summoner "isn't supposed to have endo". Why? What difference does it make? Its an abstract concept that only applies in the mechlab, and in many cases, it does so in a way that negatively effects gameplay.

In this case, the lore is damaging the gameplay experience, so it should be cast aside. We've done this before.

Living legends had ALL of its own values. Weapon tonnages, damage values, armour values, engines, etc. They made a rule set completely on their own rather than just following BT rules, because TT values are borderline useless beyond setting a general precedent for what weapons, equipment and mechs are supposed to do. Best example? Again, the summoner, is meant to be fast, hard hitting striker. In mechwarrior, its relatively fast, but not maneuverable, and most definitely not hard hitting. Why? Because the rule set has made it so. In living legends the summoner is terrifying, because they changed the rules. If you can't get behind that, then go play HBS 3025 battletech because thats the game you want, not this.

But the ruleset doesn't suck. Evidence: MWO didn't apply all the basics and look where we are at. Something as basic to TT as a proper heat scale would have made a HUGE difference in the meta, ghost heat (wouldn't have been needed), and DHS vs SHS (we'd get proper truedubs). Proper build rules too. Let the Gryo, Cockpit, et al be counted separately. Fix the whole HS to Engine thing so we wouldn't have to deal with a negative tonnage engine.

I do plan to go play HBS 3025, but as long as this game says this:

I will play this and promote TT here on these forums. The only reason the Summoner isn't the kickass mech you want it to be is because so many other rules were broken. You don't put a skin graft on top of a bandaid.

[pbiggz]

cdlord, on 29 February 2016 - 12:10 PM, said:

But the ruleset doesn't suck. Evidence: MWO didn't apply all the basics and look where we are at. Something as basic to TT as a proper heat scale would have made a HUGE difference in the meta, ghost heat (wouldn't have been needed), and DHS vs SHS (we'd get proper truedubs). Proper build rules too. Let the Gryo, Cockpit, et al be counted separately. Fix the whole HS to Engine thing so we wouldn't have to deal with a negative tonnage engine.

I do plan to go play HBS 3025, but as long as this game says this:

I will play this and promote TT here on these forums. The only reason the Summoner isn't the kickass mech you want it to be is because so many other rules were broken. You don't put a skin graft on top of a bandaid.

They dont suck on table top. I promise you they suck on a computer.

Think of this. Mechwarrior 2 mercs uses all tabletop values. Lots of fun, but is it anywhere close to balanced? No, and it never will be with tabletop values, build rules and weapon mechanics. TT rules are not designed to handle a real time game. Accept it.

[CDLord HHGD]

pbiggz, on 29 February 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

They dont suck on table top. I promise you they suck on a computer.

Think of this. Mechwarrior 2 mercs uses all tabletop values. Lots of fun, but is it anywhere close to balanced? No, and it never will be with tabletop values, build rules and weapon mechanics. TT rules are not designed to handle a real time game. Accept it.

So since you've proven you don't listen I will only make my case one more time. I NEVER said TT rules nor have I ever said a 1:1 translation was the end-all be-all solution.

TT is the foundation we need to build and balance from. Right now, too many features of TT were ignored and balance is a mess. Gee, no surprise there.

The TT ruleset is like the ruleset used to do math. It doesn't matter what the overlying equation is. You have to follow the tenets of how to math or you'll never get the right answer. We aren't following the tenets of Battletech/Mechwarrior so we'll never be balanced.

[pbiggz]

cdlord, on 29 February 2016 - 12:17 PM, said:

So since you've proven you don't listen I will only make my case one more time. I NEVER said TT rules nor have I ever said a 1:1 translation was the end-all be-all solution.

TT is the foundation we need to build and balance from. Right now, too many features of TT were ignored and balance is a mess. Gee, no surprise there.

The TT ruleset is like the ruleset used to do math. It doesn't matter what the overlying equation is. You have to follow the tenets of how to math or you'll never get the right answer. We aren't following the tenets of Battletech/Mechwarrior so we'll never be balanced.

Well you are likewise not listening to me, because the closest we got to balanced was living legends which entirely ignored TT rules. What part of that is so hard to understand?

[CDLord HHGD]

pbiggz, on 29 February 2016 - 12:18 PM, said:

Well you are likewise not listening to me, because the closest we got to balanced was living legends which entirely ignored TT rules. What part of that is so hard to understand?

The part that PGI already used some TT rules but not all. It's a packaged deal. Either go 100% or do what LL did and don't go at all.

[pbiggz]

cdlord, on 29 February 2016 - 12:20 PM, said:

The part that PGI already used some TT rules but not all. It's a packaged deal. Either go 100% or do what LL did and don't go at all.

exactly, do what LL did and dont go at all.

[CDLord HHGD]

pbiggz, on 29 February 2016 - 12:21 PM, said:

exactly, do what LL did and dont go at all.

So we both want a rewrite that we both know won't happen.

[pbiggz]

it could, if we took baby steps.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Yosharian, on 27 February 2016 - 08:03 AM, said:

The main problem is that Ferro is so ******* awful compared to Endo. Ferro needs to be tweaked to make it more attractive. Been saying this for millennia. Ferro could be adapted to only take up 12 slots for example (5 for clan). This would make Ferro more attractive and not break stock builds.

I can completely understand PGI not wanting to unlock Endo/Ferro switches on Omnimechs.

I'm down for making Standard structure more viable. Like a 25-50% increase in hitpoints over Endo. That way you indirectly buff Ferro on mechs with Ferro but no Endo without buffing mechs that take both like the Scrow and Twolf.

[CDLord HHGD]

pbiggz, on 29 February 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

it could, if we took baby steps.

So now we are both on the same page, just different fundamental directions.... Maybe we should have an election.

[Metus regem]

Biggz, lets look at the M.Las, in TT it was 5 damage done in 10 seconds, or .5 DPS, in MWO it's 5 damage every 3.9 seconds (counting duration and recycle, with out modules or quirks), letting us do 10 damage in 7.8 seconds, so over a 10 second time frame, this gives us a DPS of 1.28. that means our RoF is too high or the damage is too high by comparison to how the armour was valued.

.5 dmg/sec is balanced against TT armour values.

1.28 dmg/sec (2.5 times the RoF of TT) does not balance against 2 times armour. to balance the armour, it would need to be 2.5 times TT values against the most common weapon system in the game.


There are a couple of ways to do this, slow down the RoF, increase armour / structure to 2.5 times TT values or tune the weapons to a DPS setting, so that they do their TT values over 10 seconds. How ever considering that we already have 2 times armour, I think TT damage over a 5 second window is much more likely a fair match up. That way we all get our Pew-pew-pew, with out the horrible TTK that we have right now. THis would also keep us more in touch with both TT and lore, with out drastically altering game play, making for a solution that most people should be happy with.

[0bsidion]

pbiggz, on 27 February 2016 - 11:00 AM, said:

The moment lore impedes gameplay is the moment it should be tossed aside. Entertaining gameplay is more important than one that slavishly follows rules set out in books written in the 1980s.

God knows they nerfed the ever loving crap out of Clan tech. Based on lore, it's supposed to be outright better across the board. It seems kinda hypocritical when they cherry pick 'lore' as a reason not to do something, if that's really what the response was.