1212 replies to this topic

[Metus regem]

Odanan, on 08 March 2016 - 06:31 PM, said:

Hey, the Viper (now with the smaller Nova's legs) can be a very good "Clan Firestarter". Very fast, jumping as high as possible... just put a lot of light energy weapons and some MGs and you will be the bane of those stray big mechs/LRM boats.

Coyotl is sexy (and a very decent mech), but I wouldn't deny the rightful medium bracket of the super common original invader Vipe. Specially for an abandoned mech (not produced for more than 100 years) of an obscure Clan.

Huntsman and Pouncer can pack a lot of weapons, but are sort of slow.

You and I both know, the only reason for the Coyotl to get the end it did, was due to the supplement it was released in, they had to have a reason why the better Mech wasn't in the invasion. The Coyotl is one hex slower than the Dragonfly, and the Alpha Coyotl can jump one less hex... It's still faster than any other TRO 3050 Mech short of the Fire Moth....


Anyways on to what was going to be the post I was going to make......

Regarding MW3 and handing Clan tech over like candy to the player, it actually makes a lot of sense when you think about it, they were part of operation serpent, not bull dog, so IS parts and equipment would be in shorter supply than Clan tech, it makes more sense to use captured equipment when it is more plentiful and has the added benefit of confusing the enemy when they see their equipment shooting at them, or they could just ignore it, not knowing it had been captured.

[ScarecrowES]

CK16, on 08 March 2016 - 06:09 PM, said:

I don't get where you think the Mk.II and Nova cat were fielded more by Inner-sphere houses over Clans...I posted the TRO page it specifically called out CLAN Nova Cat and a few others. Every clan did have a Mad Cat Mk.ii pretty much they were just mostly won in trials and not purchased officially. (look previous statement above, it shared parts with Timberwolfs probably and fit well to use for clans. its clan Tech. Diamond shark DID sell them yes to the IS but they gave first shot to the clans AND only sold to IS factions on a limited bases.....

I stand by they sold them and had them available to all clans first in 3062/3 and in 3066 IS was able to once again IN LIMITED NUMBERS. They designed it to be sold yes....think of US weapons or others nations who are major manufactures design something sell to both....Would you go on and say the AH-64 Apache is something for EU (Danish) or IDF instead of US in a game? They both use it extensively.......

Both Nova Cat and Mad Cat Mk.II were used more by clans....dont get how that is so hard to figure out by reading simple facts.....YES the IS used both...but I dont think they are nearly prevalent as you think...

Ok... you've gotten really derpy in this, and I'm struggling with it.

Nova Cat was an Inner Sphere faction at the time that both the Nova Cat mech and Mad Cat MkII were released. Nova Cat = Inner Sphere after 3058. Nova Cat =/= Clan after 3058. After Clan Nova Cat released the NC mech, they immediately turned around and used it to help the Star League (Inner Sphere) to completely destroy Clan Smoke Jaguar. Clan Wolf-in-Exile was on the side of the IS here too. Nova Cat + Wolf-in-Exile = enemies of the Clans. Only Nova Cat and the Draconis Combine ever fielded the Nova Cat. That means the Nova Cat was formally used by 2 Inner Sphere factions and NO other factions formally used it.

Now "fielded" might need some explaining, in case you fail to grasp the concept. It means that the faction in question formally procured the mech in significant numbers, issued it to units, and used it formally on the battlefield. Capturing single examples of a mech and then using them is not "fielding" a mech. Clans can procure tech, weapons... pretty much anything, through Trials. Technically they would then "field" the equipment - however MWO has set rules that do not allow mechs fielded in this way to count toward that faction. Other factions can have the mech in their possession, but are not fielding it. By your own analogy, The AH-64 Apache is fielded by the US and it's Nato allies. The Nova Cat is fielded by Nova Cat and its Inner Sphere allies. If the US builds a weapon but does not use it themselves, they have not fielded the weapon. There are literally hundreds of examples of aircraft, vehicles, and weapons in the modern world that are built by one country but used by only by another. Those items are synonymous with the country that fields them them, not the one that makes them.

The Mad Cat MkII was designed by Clan Diamond Shark. They had them in numbers, but mostly sold them to other factions, and never really used them in battle themselves (DS never actually fights anyone pretty much ever). Diamond Shark sold the mechs to Nova Cat and Wolf-in-Exile starting in 3066 when the mech was released. Those factions also belonged to the Inner Sphere prior to 3060. Nova Cat + Wolf-in-Exile = Inner Sphere. Nova Cat + Wolf-in-exile =/= Clan. Diamond Shark also sold the MkII to Steiner, Kurita, and Davion, who all fielded the mech. Not one Clan ever fielded the MkII unless the mechs were specifically won through Trials (which doesn't count in MWO especially). Specifically, the TRO says "very few" clans are fielding it, and uses Nova Cat as the example of the only clan faction to have acquired it formally, while others have it through Trials, if at all.

In fact, the TRO you're highlighting makes a point to be very clear that DS TRIED to sell the mech to other clans (the ones belonging to the major faction "Clans" out in clan space), and none of them wanted it. None of the major "Clan" clans ever bought a single one. Most likely this was because the MkII was using all outdated clan tech at the time. The TRO even speculates this was intentional on the part of Clan Diamond Shark to make a cheap mech that would not appeal to fellow Clans (who were now using better tech) so they could do backroom deals with the Inner Sphere (Nova Cat and the exiled Wolves having been close allies prior to those units leaving for the Sphere) who were very interested in even outdated clan tech. In fact, all of the IS houses to receive the MkII were themselves allied with Nova Cat and Wolf-in-Exile. If you read the TRO and you have no idea what minor faction belongs to what major faction in 3066, then yes, it seems like a lot of "Clans" use the MkII. But in reality, all the ones that do are allied with the Inner Sphere as ENEMIES of the Clans.

[pbiggz]

ScarecrowES, on 08 March 2016 - 06:59 PM, said:

Ok... you've gotten really derpy in this, and I'm struggling with it.

Nova Cat was an Inner Sphere faction at the time that both the Nova Cat mech and Mad Cat MkII were released. Nova Cat = Inner Sphere after 3058. Nova Cat =/= Clan after 3058. After Clan Nova Cat released the NC mech, they immediately turned around and used it to help the Star League (Inner Sphere) to completely destroy Clan Smoke Jaguar. Clan Wolf-in-Exile was on the side of the IS here too. Nova Cat + Wolf-in-Exile = enemies of the Clans. Only Nova Cat and the Draconis Combine ever fielded the Nova Cat. That means the Nova Cat was formally used by 2 Inner Sphere factions and NO other factions formally used it.

Now "fielded" might need some explaining, in case you fail to grasp the concept. It means that the faction in question formally procured the mech in significant numbers, issued it to units, and used it formally on the battlefield. Capturing single examples of a mech and then using them is not "fielding" a mech. Clans can procure tech, weapons... pretty much anything, through Trials. Technically they would then "field" the equipment - however MWO has set rules that do not allow mechs fielded in this way to count toward that faction. Other factions can have the mech in their possession, but are not fielding it. By your own analogy, The AH-64 Apache is fielded by the US and it's Nato allies. The Nova Cat is fielded by Nova Cat and its Inner Sphere allies. If the US builds a weapon but does not use it themselves, they have not fielded the weapon. There are literally hundreds of examples of aircraft, vehicles, and weapons in the modern world that are built by one country but used by only by another. Those items are synonymous with the country that fields them them, not the one that makes them.

The Mad Cat MkII was designed by Clan Diamond Shark. They had them in numbers, but mostly sold them to other factions, and never really used them in battle themselves (DS never actually fights anyone pretty much ever). Diamond Shark sold the mechs to Nova Cat and Wolf-in-Exile starting in 3066 when the mech was released. Those factions also belonged to the Inner Sphere prior to 3060. Nova Cat + Wolf-in-Exile = Inner Sphere. Nova Cat + Wolf-in-exile =/= Clan. Diamond Shark also sold the MkII to Steiner, Kurita, and Davion, who all fielded the mech. Not one Clan ever fielded the MkII unless the mechs were specifically won through Trials (which doesn't count in MWO especially). Specifically, the TRO says "very few" clans are fielding it, and uses Nova Cat as the example of the only clan faction to have acquired it formally, while others have it through Trials, if at all.

In fact, the TRO you're highlighting makes a point to be very clear that DS TRIED to sell the mech to other clans (the ones belonging to the major faction "Clans" out in clan space), and none of them wanted it. None of the major "Clan" clans ever bought a single one. Most likely this was because the MkII was using all outdated clan tech at the time. The TRO even speculates this was intentional on the part of Clan Diamond Shark to make a cheap mech that would not appeal to fellow Clans (who were now using better tech) so they could do backroom deals with the Inner Sphere (Nova Cat and the exiled Wolves having been close allies prior to those units leaving for the Sphere) who were very interested in even outdated clan tech. In fact, all of the IS houses to receive the MkII were themselves allied with Nova Cat and Wolf-in-Exile. If you read the TRO and you have no idea what minor faction belongs to what major faction in 3066, then yes, it seems like a lot of "Clans" use the MkII. But in reality, all the ones that do are allied with the Inner Sphere as ENEMIES of the Clans.

Clans are clans whether they're aligned with the crusaders or the wardens. The clans only really break down as a faction starting with the ghost bears during the jihad and later especially and that is really only restricted to the ghost bears, and to a limited extent the nova cats. The rest of the clans remain just that, clan, whether they are crusader, warden, bastion, aggressor, invader, or homeworld clan.

Siding with the star league in the great refusal does not make a clan not a clan, because by that standard, following the start of the war of reaving, every clan with inner sphere holdings is "no longer a clan". Are their mechs suddenly IS mechs? No, no they aren't.

IDK why you keep coming in here and making claims that are just wrong.

Edited by pbiggz, 08 March 2016 - 07:07 PM.

[Metus regem]

Biggz and Scarecrow, you guys are still going on about this? Can you two please just agree to disagree on this topic and move on? I mean 20-ish pages about the Mad Cat Mk II, and why you both think it should / shouldn't be in game is enough already. You guys are not going to convince one another of your opinions on the subject, and I think a lot of us are getting fed up... It's getting hard to see anything else in this thread.... If you guys want to fight about the Mad Cat Mk II, take it to the Mad Cat Mk II thread started by Imperious, please.

[pbiggz]

Metus regem, on 08 March 2016 - 07:08 PM, said:

Biggz and Scarecrow, you guys are still going on about this? Can you two please just agree to disagree on this topic and move on? I mean 20-ish pages about the Mad Cat Mk II, and why you both think it should / shouldn't be in game is enough already. You guys are not going to convince one another of your opinions on the subject, and I think a lot of us are getting fed up... It's getting hard to see anything else in this thread.... If you guys want to fight about the Mad Cat Mk II, take it to the Mad Cat Mk II thread started by Imperious, please.

Im not even talking about the MK II. He's making the claim that any mech built by the clans in the inner sphere is an IS mech regardless of the techbase and thats simply not true. If not even the nova cat can get in under his rules his rules are stupid.

Edited by pbiggz, 08 March 2016 - 07:10 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

pbiggz, on 08 March 2016 - 07:02 PM, said:

Clans are clans whether they're aligned with the crusaders or the wardens. The clans only really break down as a faction starting with the ghost bears during the jihad and later especially and that is really only restricted to the ghost bears, and to a limited extent the nova cats.

Siding with the star league in the great refusal does not make a clan not a clan, because by that standard, following the start of the war of reaving, every clan with inner sphere holdings is "no longer a clan". Are their mechs suddenly IS mechs? No, no they aren't.

It's super simple. You have to divide every minor faction into 2 opposing factions who will then fight each against each other as complete factions. In 3050 this is easy. Anything that's a Clan goes in the "Clan" faction. Anything that's an Inner Sphere house, Merc unit, pirate band, whatever, goes in the "Inner Sphere" faction.

Starting in 3058... some of the little pegs that used to sit on the "Clan" side of the board move over to the "Inner Sphere" side of the board.

Clan Wolf (in exile) and Nova Cat are kicked out of the Clans. As far as the Clans are concerned, Wolf (in exile) and Nova Cat aren't even clans anymore. They're the lowest of the low. The Clans and WIE/NC are now enemies. Ghost Bear goes willingly.

So now, when you separate your two major factions, Wolf, Nova Cat, and Ghost Bear play for the Inner Sphere. All their toys belong to the Inner Sphere.

Metus regem, on 08 March 2016 - 07:08 PM, said:

Biggz and Scarecrow, you guys are still going on about this? Can you two please just agree to disagree on this topic and move on? I mean 20-ish pages about the Mad Cat Mk II, and why you both think it should / shouldn't be in game is enough already. You guys are not going to convince one another of your opinions on the subject, and I think a lot of us are getting fed up... It's getting hard to see anything else in this thread.... If you guys want to fight about the Mad Cat Mk II, take it to the Mad Cat Mk II thread started by Imperious, please.

Haha... you know, I read through what... 6 pages of talk of almost nothing BUT the MkII since I last posted last night. So it's totally me.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

ScarecrowES, on 08 March 2016 - 07:12 PM, said:

It's super simple. You have to divide every minor faction into 2 opposing factions who will then fight each against each other as complete factions. In 3050 this is easy. Anything that's a Clan goes in the "Clan" faction. Anything that's an Inner Sphere house, Merc unit, pirate band, whatever, goes in the "Inner Sphere" faction.

So now, when you separate your two major factions, Wolf, Nova Cat, and Ghost Bear play for the Inner Sphere. All their toys belong to the Inner Sphere.

You are over-simplifying things to the point it is ridiculous. I mean, what happens with the War of Reaving where Clans are against Clans and the OZ Clans get pushed out of the K-Cluster? Do CJF/Wolf/CHH suddenly become IS simply because raisins?

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 08 March 2016 - 07:15 PM.

[pbiggz]

ScarecrowES, on 08 March 2016 - 07:11 PM, said:

It's super simple. You have to divide every minor faction into 2 opposing factions who will then fight each against each other as complete factions. In 3050 this is easy. Anything that's a Clan goes in the "Clan" faction. Anything that's an Inner Sphere house, Merc unit, pirate band, whatever, goes in the "Inner Sphere" faction.

Starting in 3058... some of the little pegs that used to sit on the "Clan" side of the board move over to the "Inner Sphere" side of the board.

Clan Wolf (in exile) and Nova Cat are kicked out of the Clans. As far as the Clans are concerned, Wolf (in exile) and Nova Cat aren't even clans anymore. They're the lowest of the low. The Clans and WIE/NC are now enemies. Ghost Bear goes willingly.

So now, when you separate your two major factions, Wolf, Nova Cat, and Ghost Bear play for the Inner Sphere. All their toys belong to the Inner Sphere.

Yes you're right. The barriers between clan and IS break down, but the clan identity for the invader clans is not decided by the grand council in the homeworlds. After the wars of reaving broke out the spheroid clans cut off contact with the homeworlds and established their own council. Who's word counts then? The homeworlds? The Spheroids?

You can't divide the factions perfectly into clan and IS pretty much at any time except for 3050, but if you intend to enforce pure tech, then the "clan" factions, whether they are IS clans or homeworld clans, get the clan tech, and the IS factions get the IS tech. No crossover. Simple as that.

[ScarecrowES]

pbiggz, on 08 March 2016 - 07:10 PM, said:

Im not even talking about the MK II. He's making the claim that any mech built by the clans in the inner sphere is an IS mech regardless of the techbase and thats simply not true. If not even the nova cat can get in under his rules his rules are stupid.

I'm arguing that any mech built fielded exclusively (or nearly) by IS units is an Inner Sphere mech, regardless of tech base. And those are Battletech's rules, not mine. Tech base and faction availability are not the same thing. Nova Cat and MkII are clan tech, but are IS faction mechs. This means that those mechs don't fall into line under PGI's current tech assignment system, as those would be the first mechs that didn't fall neatly into clan/clan or IS/IS tech/faction availability.

[Lucian Nostra]

ScarecrowES, on 08 March 2016 - 06:16 PM, said:

You're correct in that my timing for Nova Cat is simplified. Their relationship with the IS is more complex. They begin relocating a significant portion of their forces to the IS before 3058. They work cooperatively on development of the Nova Cat with the Combine after the Battle of Tukayyid (so as early as 3052/3, but I'm trying to find a specific year) and release the mech jointly with the DC in 3059. They officially side with the Star League in 3059, and are officially abjured and the last remaining forces in Clan space were ejected in 3060. It's worth noting that, because of their cooperation with Nova Cat on development of the namesake mech, the DC was one of the first IS houses to field Omnimechs of their own design. But regardless of specific dates, Clan Nova Cats was working jointly with the IS for a long time before releasing the Nova Cat in 3059, and they did so as a loyal allied faction of the Inner Sphere.

Now, I'd normally agree that Lore doesn't matter much.. BUT... Lore in this case dictates which minor factions belong to which Major ones, and what factions can use which tech. And for the purposes of MWO, those factors mean everything. Especially in CW, where your faction dictates what you're allowed to fight with. In 3050, all Clans fall into the "Clan" major faction, and are the only ones who can use Clan tech. In 3058, this is no longer the case. By 3060, most IS minor factions can use Clan tech. The Nova Cat and Mad Cat MkII are both released as Inner Sphere mechs (by faction) that use clan tech. Lore means enough to PGI that they're still basing their content selections on it, if only loosely.

Wow Im not sure where you got your information from but your so wrong..

Clan Nova Cat while it was talking with the DCMS did not make any real moves till 3058 when the star league was reborn as they saw it as destiny.

Theodore Kurita made overtures to the Nova Cats in late 3058 about offering token resistances on their worlds which the Nova Cats agreed too before Operation Bird Dog kicked off in May of 3059.

Clan Nova Cat remained entirely within Clan space in this manor through the end of Operation Bulldog and the refusal in 3060 when they where than abjured by the council. Given 3 months to evacuate but some of the clans jumped the gun and the Nova Cats lost tons of material and only made it out with some 3 clusters of mechs but the bulk of their civilian caste

Sooo.. again.. No.. they did not move anything till they got abjured and in noo way was the DCMS involved in the design of the Nova Cat.

The TRO for the Nova Cat even says that when they BEGAN talks with the DCMS they ordered the design of the Nova Cat. So how did the DCMS develop a mech when the most basic of dialogues was just starting?

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 08 March 2016 - 07:21 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

pbiggz, on 08 March 2016 - 07:15 PM, said:

Yes you're right. The barriers between clan and IS break down, but the clan identity for the invader clans is not decided by the grand council in the homeworlds. After the wars of reaving broke out the spheroid clans cut off contact with the homeworlds and established their own council. Who's word counts then? The homeworlds? The Spheroids?

You can't divide the factions perfectly into clan and IS pretty much at any time except for 3050, but if you intend to enforce pure tech, then the "clan" factions, whether they are IS clans or homeworld clans, get the clan tech, and the IS factions get the IS tech. No crossover. Simple as that.

I like it when you're being logical, even if you're not drawing the right conclusions. You see the problem, but you're not seeing the problem. Once the faction/tech lines start breaking down in the timeline, PGI's gameplay systems start breaking down too. How do we address mechs and tech introduced after most of the invading clans are now aligned with the Inner Sphere or dead? Do we continue to introduce mechs without even acknowledging that the status quo had changed by the time that mech was introduced? And what happens if we DO introduce murky mechs, and then the timeline/gameplay catch up?

Say you release the Nova Cat right now in 3053. If this were 3059, and the galaxy map reflected that, Nova Cat would be fighting on the side of the Inner Sphere against Smoke Jag, Jade Falcon, and what's left of the crusader Wolves. Are we saying, then, that the Nova Cats, being an IS faction, couldn't use their TOTEM mech to fight in Community Warfare because it uses Clan tech and only Clan-allied factions can use Clan tech? But they're not even in the game right now... So what about Kurita? The Draconis Combine helped develop the Nova Cat. They fielded it in numbers large enough to give the NCs a run. Doesn't Kurita have claim to that mech? But they can't use it because it has clan tech, right? So instead, you assign the Nova Cat to 4 factions that NEVER used it. In fact, for one of those 4 factions, it was one of the mechs that sent them to their graves.

And the Mad Cat MkII... same problem. If you release it as a Clan mech in the current 3053 MWO timeline, you give it to 4 factions that never used it (the Clans), while denying it to all the factions that DID use it (Steiner, Davion, Kurita).

All because we don't have a way to rectify tech base and faction availability.

But yeah even later in the timeline things are an even bigger mess. FedCom civil war, Jihad, Dark Ages... nasty business for defining whose side everyone is on. But really, it all starts in 3058. 3057 is the last year with pure lines between clan and IS tech. PGI needs to come up with a plan to deal with that. And they need to do it BEFORE we start releasing mechs that break through those lines.

[pbiggz]

ScarecrowES, on 08 March 2016 - 07:30 PM, said:

I like it when you're being logical, even if you're not drawing the right conclusions. You see the problem, but you're not seeing the problem. Once the faction/tech lines start breaking down in the timeline, PGI's gameplay systems start breaking down too. How do we address mechs and tech introduced after most of the invading clans are now aligned with the Inner Sphere or dead? Do we continue to introduce mechs without even acknowledging that the status quo had changed by the time that mech was introduced? And what happens if we DO introduce murky mechs, and then the timeline/gameplay catch up?

Say you release the Nova Cat right now in 3053. If this were 3059, and the galaxy map reflected that, Nova Cat would be fighting on the side of the Inner Sphere against Smoke Jag, Jade Falcon, and what's left of the crusader Wolves. Are we saying, then, that the Nova Cats, being an IS faction, couldn't use their TOTEM mech to fight in Community Warfare because it uses Clan tech and only Clan-allied factions can use Clan tech? But they're not even in the game right now... So what about Kurita? The Draconis Combine helped develop the Nova Cat. They fielded it in numbers large enough to give the NCs a run. Doesn't Kurita have claim to that mech? But they can't use it because it has clan tech, right? So instead, you assign the Nova Cat to 4 factions that NEVER used it. In fact, for one of those 4 factions, it was one of the mechs that sent them to their graves.

And the Mad Cat MkII... same problem. If you release it as a Clan mech in the current 3053 MWO timeline, you give it to 4 factions that never used it (the Clans), while denying it to all the factions that DID use it (Steiner, Davion, Kurita).

All because we don't have a way to rectify tech base and faction availability.

But yeah even later in the timeline things are an even bigger mess. FedCom civil war, Jihad, Dark Ages... nasty business for defining whose side everyone is on. But really, it all starts in 3058. 3057 is the last year with pure lines between clan and IS tech. PGI needs to come up with a plan to deal with that. And they need to do it BEFORE we start releasing mechs that break through those lines.

But your conclusion doesn't make any sense. Whether a mech is clan or IS is contingent upon its TECH not the faction that fields it. By that logic, there are many star league era mechs we have that are extinct in the IS except for them being in the hands of the clans. Does that make them clan mechs? I can't tell if you're arguing against puretech or arguing against mechs because they don't fit into YOUR idea of puretech.

Also by your logic the linebacker is an IS mech, because the wolves in exile field them much more than the crusader wolves, who tend to shun it, so I guess that disqualifies it from the next clan pack?

Edited by pbiggz, 08 March 2016 - 07:37 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

Lucian Nostra, on 08 March 2016 - 07:16 PM, said:

Wow Im not sure where you got your information from but your so wrong..

Clan Nova Cat while it was talking with the DCMS did not make any real moves till 3058 when the star league was reborn as they saw it as destiny.

Theodore Kurita made overtures to the Nova Cats in late 3058 about offering token resistances on their worlds which the Nova Cats agreed too before Operation Bird Dog kicked off in May of 3059.

Clan Nova Cat remained entirely within Clan space in this manor through the end of Operation Bulldog and the refusal in 3060 when they where than abjured by the council. Given 3 months to evacuate but some of the clans jumped the gun and the Nova Cats lost tons of material and only made it out with some 3 clusters of mechs but the bulk of their civilian caste

Sooo.. again.. No.. they did not move anything till they got abjured and in noo way was the DCMS involved in the design of the Nova Cat.

The TRO for the Nova Cat even says that when they BEGAN talks with the DCMS they ordered the design of the Nova Cat. So how did the DCMS develop a mech when the most basic of dialogues was just starting?

TRO 3060. Nova Cat cat was working with DC after Battle of Tukkayyid. The Nova Cat mech was a joint project. Doesn't give you an exact date of when that relationship started in full but... the mech was finished before 3058 (development time at more than 2 years for most mechs means cooperation was at least prior to 3056), initial prototype runs were made in clan space before full production began in the Inner Sphere Nova Cat holdings in 3059. Nova Cat had already set up factories and infrastructure, as well as moved a significant percentage of their population into the Sphere to support production. They had enough Nova Cat mechs produced that they were up front with every Nova Cat unit during the drive against Smoke Jag.

Direct from the source book.

[pbiggz]

ScarecrowES, on 08 March 2016 - 07:38 PM, said:

TRO 3060. Nova Cat cat was working with DC after Battle of Tukkayyid. The Nova Cat mech was a joint project. Doesn't give you an exact date of when that relationship started in full but... the mech was finished before 3058 (development time at more than 2 years for most mechs means cooperation was at least prior to 3056), initial prototype runs were made in clan space before full production began in the Inner Sphere Nova Cat holdings in 3059. Nova Cat had already set up factories and infrastructure, as well as moved a significant percentage of their population into the Sphere to support production. They had enough Nova Cat mechs produced that they were up front with every Nova Cat unit during the drive against Smoke Jag.

Direct from the source book.

And the Nova Cats were still a clan and their mechs still clan mechs, and they continued to be a clan until the combine wiped them out in the 32nd century.

[LastKhan]

So, clan nova cat isnt in game therefore its mech shouldnt be? Its not like we have one already oh the Shadow Cat. hurp and Kurita had no hand in the Nova Cat's development.

[Lucian Nostra]

ScarecrowES, on 08 March 2016 - 07:38 PM, said:

TRO 3060. Nova Cat cat was working with DC after Battle of Tukkayyid. The Nova Cat mech was a joint project. Doesn't give you an exact date of when that relationship started in full but... the mech was finished before 3058 (development time at more than 2 years for most mechs means cooperation was at least prior to 3056), initial prototype runs were made in clan space before full production began in the Inner Sphere Nova Cat holdings in 3059. Nova Cat had already set up factories and infrastructure, as well as moved a significant percentage of their population into the Sphere to support production. They had enough Nova Cat mechs produced that they were up front with every Nova Cat unit during the drive against Smoke Jag.

Direct from the source book.

Brah trust me. They had been talking but nothing happened till '58 when they agreed to only put up a token defense of their planets. The abjuration is all about how they where lucky enough to have the Sharks and Ravens help them move their civilians and equipment but lost most their military in holding actions to affect those evacuations. They did not move stuff to DCMS controlled planets till after the abjuration.





Look at that, look at my name, trust me.. the Nova Cat was designed by Clan Nova Cat and produced by Clan Nova Cat. Im sure theres variants created AFTER that the DCMS might of had something to do with but those are after

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 08 March 2016 - 07:54 PM.

[Imperius]

Metus regem, on 08 March 2016 - 07:08 PM, said:

Biggz and Scarecrow, you guys are still going on about this? Can you two please just agree to disagree on this topic and move on? I mean 20-ish pages about the Mad Cat Mk II, and why you both think it should / shouldn't be in game is enough already. You guys are not going to convince one another of your opinions on the subject, and I think a lot of us are getting fed up... It's getting hard to see anything else in this thread.... If you guys want to fight about the Mad Cat Mk II, take it to the Mad Cat Mk II thread started by Imperious, please.

Could you stop talking about the Coyotl? Please and only talk about it in the feature suggestions poll some where else on the forums?

We are really getting tired of you guys talking about 3053 (timeline) mechs and we can agree to disagree....

Do you see how that works?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

ScarecrowES, on 08 March 2016 - 07:38 PM, said:

TRO 3060. Nova Cat cat was working with DC after Battle of Tukkayyid. The Nova Cat mech was a joint project.

The TRO says that Nova Cat began TALKS with DC, and the Khan at the same time ordered the construction the Nova Cat. You are drawing connections where there are none.

[ScarecrowES]

pbiggz, on 08 March 2016 - 07:35 PM, said:

But your conclusion doesn't make any sense. Whether a mech is clan or IS is contingent upon its TECH not the faction that fields it. By that logic, there are many star league era mechs we have that are extinct in the IS except for them being in the hands of the clans. Does that make them clan mechs? I can't tell if you're arguing against puretech or arguing against mechs because they don't fit into YOUR idea of puretech.

Also by your logic the linebacker is an IS mech, because the wolves in exile field them much more than the crusader wolves, who tend to shun it, so I guess that disqualifies it from the next clan pack?

Well, I'm pro PGI figuring their **** out before they jump timelines... but if we need a quick and easy solution to the problem, I'm in favor of ditching pure tech. Imagine how many balancing problems that could solve!

The line you're stating, about what tech it uses defining the mech, is only really true about construction rules. It has no bearing on which factions can use the mech. That's the arena of lore. Right now PGI has it easy... Lore and tech line up neatly. Not so after 3058.

And you're not fully right about the Linebacker, simply because it was a Clan exclusive mech when it was introduced in 3053. It gets murky after 3058, because but Wolf-in-Exile and the entirety of the invading clans used them in large numbers. It fits what I've been saying about that divide between 3057 and 3058. But it presents another interesting problem, right? Up until 3057, it's exclusively a Clan mech. After 3058, it's both Clan and Inner Sphere. How do we rectify this? The same would be true of mechs like the Kodiak. Clan up until 3060. I'd say our choices of how to deal with these issues depends on what PGI intends to do about the timeline...

If PGI chooses to move the timeline to say, 3060, and has the galaxy map reflect the state of the Sphere at that point, they can decide if they want to do tech/faction alignments manually (choose which factions have access to which mechs and tech) or simply open all tech to all factions (as was more prevalent anyway, especially getting into 3067).

If PGI keeps the timeline and tech set where it is now, then the best course of action is to have all mechs with murky alignments be released to both IS and Clan. So the Linebacker, since it was Clan exclusive on release AND use Clan tech would be released solely as a Clan mech (though I would LOVE if it became IS exclusive, or Wolf-In-Exile exclusive after 3058). But the Nova Cat and Mad Cat MkII would be released as both a Clan AND IS mech using clan tech. Wouldn't make a difference in Quick Play, but in CW it would mean Kuritans could run both of those mechs to fight the Clans, as Lore would dictate.

That would be my preference... to tread as close to tech and lore as possible.

LastKhan, on 08 March 2016 - 07:40 PM, said:

So, clan nova cat isnt in game therefore its mech shouldnt be? Its not like we have one already oh the Shadow Cat. hurp and Kurita had no hand in the Nova Cat's development.

According to the Battletech source books, Kurita did. And the Shadow Cat was only ever released to Clans. Just as the Nova Cat was only released to the Inner Sphere. Are you struggling to understand what we're talking about here or...?

[LastKhan]

ScarecrowES, on 08 March 2016 - 07:56 PM, said:

According to the Battletech source books, Kurita did. And the Shadow Cat was only ever released to Clans. Just as the Nova Cat was only released to the Inner Sphere. Are you struggling to understand what we're talking about here or...?

Sources plz.