1212 replies to this topic

[pbiggz]

ScarecrowES, on 08 March 2016 - 07:56 PM, said:

Well, I'm pro PGI figuring their **** out before they jump timelines... but if we need a quick and easy solution to the problem, I'm in favor of ditching pure tech. Imagine how many balancing problems that could solve!

The line you're stating, about what tech it uses defining the mech, is only really true about construction rules. It has no bearing on which factions can use the mech. That's the arena of lore. Right now PGI has it easy... Lore and tech line up neatly. Not so after 3058.

And you're not fully right about the Linebacker, simply because it was a Clan exclusive mech when it was introduced in 3053. It gets murky after 3058, because but Wolf-in-Exile and the entirety of the invading clans used them in large numbers. It fits what I've been saying about that divide between 3057 and 3058. But it presents another interesting problem, right? Up until 3057, it's exclusively a Clan mech. After 3058, it's both Clan and Inner Sphere. How do we rectify this? The same would be true of mechs like the Kodiak. Clan up until 3060. I'd say our choices of how to deal with these issues depends on what PGI intends to do about the timeline...

If PGI chooses to move the timeline to say, 3060, and has the galaxy map reflect the state of the Sphere at that point, they can decide if they want to do tech/faction alignments manually (choose which factions have access to which mechs and tech) or simply open all tech to all factions (as was more prevalent anyway, especially getting into 3067).

If PGI keeps the timeline and tech set where it is now, then the best course of action is to have all mechs with murky alignments be released to both IS and Clan. So the Linebacker, since it was Clan exclusive on release AND use Clan tech would be released solely as a Clan mech (though I would LOVE if it became IS exclusive, or Wolf-In-Exile exclusive after 3058). But the Nova Cat and Mad Cat MkII would be released as both a Clan AND IS mech using clan tech. Wouldn't make a difference in Quick Play, but in CW it would mean Kuritans could run both of those mechs to fight the Clans, as Lore would dictate.

That would be my preference... to tread as close to tech and lore as possible.



According to the Battletech source books, Kurita did. And the Shadow Cat was only ever released to Clans. Just as the Nova Cat was only released to the Inner Sphere. Are you struggling to understand what we're talking about here or...?

We're struggling to understand what books you read because you do not seem to be drawing even close to the same conclusions everyone else is drawing.

[LT. HARDCASE]

Sanity abandoned this thread 18 pages ago. You guys are really something else. Take it to PMs or a hotel room already.

[LastKhan]

LT. HARDCASE, on 08 March 2016 - 08:03 PM, said:

Sanity abandoned this thread 18 pages ago. You guys are really something else. Take it to PMs or a hotel room already.

We are talking about clan mechs so still on track.. for now.. but if you're offering ill take ya on that hotel room. kek

[Steel Claws]

3053 or sooner. Several good choices.

Black Lanner... Nice 55 ton medium with a wide variety of weapons. Jack of all trades.

Night Gyr... Good solid 75 tonner even if the tro artwork is god awful.

Woodsman...75 tons of versatile Omni. The grandpa of the Timberwolf, Gargoyle, and Naga.

Turkina.... Would make Martha proud. Another mech that needs some better artwork.

Huntsman... 50 tons in search of better artwork.

[Lucian Nostra]

Steel Claws, on 08 March 2016 - 08:08 PM, said:

3053 or sooner. Several good choices.

Black Lanner... Nice 55 ton medium with a wide variety of weapons. Jack of all trades.

Night Gyr... Good solid 75 tonner even if the tro artwork is god awful.

Woodsman...75 tons of versatile Omni. The grandpa of the Timberwolf, Gargoyle, and Naga.

Turkina.... Would make Martha proud. Another mech that needs some better artwork.

Huntsman... 50 tons in search of better artwork.

So much truth..

Fan of all those mechs except the Woodsman

[pbiggz]

Lucian Nostra, on 08 March 2016 - 08:09 PM, said:

So much truth..

Fan of all those mechs except the Woodsman

The Huntsman is a pretty beast medium.

[LastKhan]

pbiggz, on 08 March 2016 - 08:12 PM, said:

The Huntsman is a pretty beast medium.

Common ground! yea i agree i should change up my medium choices. Also i tried to make it look okay, should hit it again.

[Lucian Nostra]

LastKhan, on 08 March 2016 - 08:14 PM, said:

Common ground! yea i agree i should change up my medium choices. Also i tried to make it look okay, should hit it again.

huh never saw this. honestly probably one of the best Huntsmen i've seen

[ScarecrowES]

Lucian Nostra, on 08 March 2016 - 07:49 PM, said:

Brah trust me. <snip>

With all those books, you would know that when it comes to canon, the source book always trumps the fiction. In this case, Sarna says "Working with" and the ORIGINAL TRO 3060 say "Talks with." I don't have access to the updated TRO to see the language there to see if "working with" comes from the updates, or if Sarna got the wording wrong. We don't have a ton of specifics on how extensively the Combine worked on the Nova Cat, but we DO know it was enough for their own scientists to reverse engineer omni-tech from the experience. We also know that the Combine provided a lot of the resources and equipment to get the design finalized and the production capability in the Sphere built up for it. We also know that the Combine fielded them in huge numbers when the became available.

Not a lot of specifics there either BUUUUUUT, what the TRO 3060 IS very specific about is how the Nova Cat was produced. It specified that production started in 3058 in clan space but was moved to the Inner Sphere at Irece Alpha in 3059. That plant sits on the site of a Kurita mech factory that Nova Cat had initially destroyed during the invasion. No specific dates give as to when the factory was rebuilt, but it would have been started prior to 3057. Kurita had a hand in getting that factory up and running. And of course, you can't run a mech factory without extensive personnel, supplies, and equipment, which would have been supplied by either Nova Cat or Kurita. Nova Cat already had significant levels of all those things in their IS holdings already. In such a case, Nova Cat either had more assets in the sphere in 3059 than you might like to believe, or Kurita helped more than you'd like to believe. We have enough evidence to assume a little of both.

Lucian Nostra, on 08 March 2016 - 08:16 PM, said:

huh never saw this. honestly probably one of the best Huntsmen i've seen

Not saying much though, eh?

Anyway... it's been fun. At least some good discussion in there (small pockets anyway). Love a good discussion. But I'm super tired now.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 08 March 2016 - 08:29 PM.

[Metus regem]

Steel Claws, on 08 March 2016 - 08:08 PM, said:

3053 or sooner. Several good choices.

Black Lanner... Nice 55 ton medium with a wide variety of weapons. Jack of all trades.

Night Gyr... Good solid 75 tonner even if the tro artwork is god awful.

Woodsman...75 tons of versatile Omni. The grandpa of the Timberwolf, Gargoyle, and Naga.

Turkina.... Would make Martha proud. Another mech that needs some better artwork.

Huntsman... 50 tons in search of better artwork.

Got to disagree with the Black Lanner, 11t or so of pod space once up armoured on a 55t is bad, there are 40t Omni-mechs with more pod space and move just as fast with out MASC. And then we have the Huntsman, 5t lighter, but double the pod space of the Black Lanner, mind you slower, but not a lot of armour or structure difference between 50 and 55t....

[CK16]

ScarecrowES, on 08 March 2016 - 07:56 PM, said:

According to the Battletech source books, Kurita did. And the Shadow Cat was only ever released to Clans. Just as the Nova Cat was only released to the Inner Sphere. Are you struggling to understand what we're talking about here or...?

You mean just like the Mk.II was only sold to IS?....This just shows how little you know and make connections for your theroy that would make a JFK conspiracy theorist blush......

Edited by CK16, 08 March 2016 - 09:14 PM.

[Coralld]

LastKhan, on 08 March 2016 - 08:14 PM, said:

Common ground! yea i agree i should change up my medium choices. Also i tried to make it look okay, should hit it again.

I remember seeing this some where but can't remember where. Oh well. Would love to see another updated and better looking Huntsman, not saying this one doesn't look good as I think it looks great.

[LastKhan]

Coralld, on 08 March 2016 - 10:28 PM, said:

I remember seeing this some where but can't remember where. Oh well. Would love to see another updated and better looking Huntsman, not saying this one doesn't look good as I think it looks great.

It was in the community spot light way back when. Ill work up a newer one with more mwo weaponry.

[Lucian Nostra]

ScarecrowES, on 08 March 2016 - 08:19 PM, said:

Not a lot of specifics there either BUUUUUUT, what the TRO 3060 IS very specific about is how the Nova Cat was produced. It specified that production started in 3058 in clan space but was moved to the Inner Sphere at Irece Alpha in 3059. That plant sits on the site of a Kurita mech factory that Nova Cat had initially destroyed during the invasion. No specific dates give as to when the factory was rebuilt, but it would have been started prior to 3057. Kurita had a hand in getting that factory up and running. And of course, you can't run a mech factory without extensive personnel, supplies, and equipment, which would have been supplied by either Nova Cat or Kurita. Nova Cat already had significant levels of all those things in their IS holdings already. In such a case, Nova Cat either had more assets in the sphere in 3059 than you might like to believe, or Kurita helped more than you'd like to believe. We have enough evidence to assume a little of both.

What I've grabbed has been from the Sourcebooks and not the novels so lets delve deeper. The issue you have is that your reading the TRO without knowing whats behind it.

So I hate to break it to you but Irece was lost to Clan Nova Cat in wave 5. So the Combine literally had no dealings there.. The mech was under production at the clan homeworlds till the plant came online in early '59 and production was shifted there as since you know the Nova Cats where abjured shortly there after.

Operation Bird Dog (the precursor to Operation Bulldog) didn't kick off till May 13th 3059. Irece was hit in wave 1 which was May 29th - June 2nd (possibly later but wave 2 was june 26th) which is mid 59. Production was already underway when the DCMS reclaimed Irece which by the way was a drinking contest.. I liked the football game more myself

The wording in the TRO can be misleading because you have to remember Irece IS in the Inner Sphere but it was a clan controlled planet till Operation Bulldog.

This is similar to when they say the Ghost Bears relocated their assets to the Inner Sphere.. it doesnt mean they became Spheroids

ps: so again. .trust me


edit:

ScarecrowES, on 08 March 2016 - 08:19 PM, said:

We also know that the Combine provided a lot of the resources and equipment to get the design finalized and the production capability in the Sphere built up for it. We also know that the Combine fielded them in huge numbers when the became available.

Oh we do? where? The only source for this is from you. Infact the TRO pretty specifically points out that it would be the opposite and it was Nova Cat designed as again just entering talks with the combine
"Following Clan Nova Cat's defeat at Tukayyid, that Clan began talks with the Draconis COmbine, Khan Severen Leroux at the same time ordered construction of a new heavy OmniMech" And also the whole deal of production on a clan controlled planet which I've already covered above meaning no they didn't build up jack

The only other faction pointed at as having Nova Cats after Bulldog where the Smoke Jaguars. Possibly later as they became part of the Combine the DCMS might of gotten some but as Clan Nova Cat was always trying to rebuild I fail to see how the Combine could field them in huge numbers.

Oh also the new 3060 book is a reprint not one of the upgrade line so it'll be just a reprint of the older 3060 book with the correct wording of "Began talks with" Sarna being a public source was written wrong and I've fixed that thank you for pointing it out so others wont be confused in the future

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 09 March 2016 - 12:08 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Steel Claws, on 08 March 2016 - 08:08 PM, said:

3053 or sooner. Several good choices.

Black Lanner... Nice 55 ton medium with a wide variety of weapons. Jack of all trades.

Night Gyr... Good solid 75 tonner even if the tro artwork is god awful.

Woodsman...75 tons of versatile Omni. The grandpa of the Timberwolf, Gargoyle, and Naga.

Turkina.... Would make Martha proud. Another mech that needs some better artwork.

Huntsman... 50 tons in search of better artwork.

You use that word 'Good' - i do not think it means what you think it means.

Of those mechs, the Huntsman and Night Gyr are 'good'

Super limited mechs are not versatile. Black Lanner is not a jack of all trades because it has like 8 tons of podspace, meaning it literally has ONE role, which is to be stuffed full of SPLs/ERSLs. It may have B and M hardpoint options, but it does not have the podspace to actually make use of them.
Woodsman is a strictly worse in every way Timberwolf with a locked STD engine.
Turkina is just a worse Dire Wolf, its 95 tons so i suppose that is a bit different for CW drop deck tonnages, but its not really relevant because an agility rating of 3.0 is WAY too low since the skill tree nerf, and gunbag clan assaults aren't going to get agility quirks.

[Ace Selin]

pbiggz, on 08 March 2016 - 05:42 AM, said:

lmfao whatever floats your very small boat bud. If you refuse to accept what is widely agreed upon here, even by lucian and lastkhan (they dont like the MK II but at least they acknowledge it COULD be in game), then thats your own problem. Deal with it in private.

LOL. I understand reading is difficult for you, so ill try to make it more simple for your lower cognitive skills to understand.
When i say "I simply point out the likelihood of getting these (other mechs) before the MadCat MKII which has another decade to follow in the timeline" its the same as saying " acknowledge it COULD be in game" just not the very next mech. I understand someone of your low intellect may not be able to comprehend how two things not worded exactly alike are actually similar but its the English language and i get for you its difficult but maybe get a grown up to help next time before you respond mkay

Thank goodness there is a block tards button on these forums.

Edited by Ace Selin, 09 March 2016 - 04:46 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

LastKhan, on 08 March 2016 - 10:43 PM, said:

It was in the community spot light way back when. Ill work up a newer one with more mwo weaponry.

Just put the poor thing on a diet, will ya? 'tis a fat Nova Cat mech.

[Coralld]

Widowmaker1981, on 09 March 2016 - 01:08 AM, said:

You use that word 'Good' - i do not think it means what you think it means.

Of those mechs, the Huntsman and Night Gyr are 'good'

Super limited mechs are not versatile. Black Lanner is not a jack of all trades because it has like 8 tons of podspace, meaning it literally has ONE role, which is to be stuffed full of SPLs/ERSLs. It may have B and M hardpoint options, but it does not have the podspace to actually make use of them.
Woodsman is a strictly worse in every way Timberwolf with a locked STD engine.
Turkina is just a worse Dire Wolf, its 95 tons so i suppose that is a bit different for CW drop deck tonnages, but its not really relevant because an agility rating of 3.0 is WAY too low since the skill tree nerf, and gunbag clan assaults aren't going to get agility quirks.

My sentiments exactly. When I read that he said the Black Lanner was a "versatile Jack of all trades mech" I was all like, lol what?!

Yeah, the only good mechs that were on that list were the Huntsman and Night Gyr.

[FerrokenFibrous]

No offense to people who like the Woodsman, but to be honest, I'd rather not have it be included in MWO, and to be honest again, it doesn't seem to have enough reasons to justify its inclusion in the game (both lore and gameplay-wise). There's a reason why it was practically phased out to the point that only a few, unimportant dark cast bandits use it anymore, even before the Clan Invasion.
It's practically a Timber Wolf that:
A: is variant starved (unless PGI is willing to make up new variants just for the game)
B: is mostly-slower (4/6 movement by default, only able to catch up to its "grandchild" for short durations)
C: is less heat-efficient (only 12 built-in DHS, all mounted on a heftier standard engine, to boot)
D: is less tonnage-efficient (27.5 tons of pod space by default, same as the TBR's, but with thinner armor and fewer heat sinks, forcing it to sacrifice 4 tons to equal the TBR's armor and heat sink count, making its effective pod space 23.5 tons)
Even with its built-in MASC, a (possibly) lower C-Bill cost (hardly an advantage, especially if you grind like crazy) and, potentially, its ability to zombie (assuming it has variant/s with decent CT hardpoints), I really don't see why or how it would or should be worth taking over the Timber Wolf, Gargoyle (despite the Gargoyle having worse pod space than both the TBR and Woodsman) and Executioner (which, to me, makes up for its shortcomings fairly well by being able to mount decent armor and having humanoid hitboxes).

Edited by KiyoshiKazuya, 09 March 2016 - 06:28 AM.

[SmoothCriminal]

Having never played TT but browsing Sarna and the suggestions in this thread, I can see that many, many mechs will have to be considerably tweaked/quirked/inflated in order to compete with our current top tier. Otherwise the only point in releasing them is nostalgia.

...Or we start unlocking components...