1212 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

I also just remembered the Urbie IIC as another timeline-viable Clan light Battlemech.

EDIT: And the Piranha.

Edited by FupDup, 05 March 2016 - 11:23 AM.

[ScarecrowES]

pbiggz, on 05 March 2016 - 09:11 AM, said:

You lost this argument the moment you came in here and said linebacker. puke.

The funny thing about the whole rest of the post is that you ignore reality in favor of opinion. Can you run an energy build with 6+ energy points on a Linebacker? Yes? Do you have more than 16 tons of pod space? Yes? They you can run the same comp-level laser builds on the Linebacker as you can on both the Hellbringer and the Timberwolf (though it will run hotter than on the TBR). You can also run the standard comp-level laser builds from the Stormcrow as long as you have at least 5 energy slots, which you do. What about the splat builds? 3 to 4 missile slots with energy backups? Yup, the Linebacker has them, so it can do that as well or better than the Stormcrow, better then the Hellbringer, but worse than the Timberwolf. Ballistic and energy builds? Better than the Stormcrow, equal to the Hellbringer, slightly worse than the Timberwolf.

I think it's funny you mention the Exe as a negative mech, but you're seeing it more and more in CW because it does laser vomit better than any clan mech in it's class. If you're thinking these aren't doing well, especially after MASC was adjusted, you're not paying attention. SO MANY LASERS. It's why you're seeing these things more and more on defense teams. If you come around a corner within 300m of one of these, you're going to last about 10 seconds.

Look... I understand why the Linebacker doesn't fit into YOUR deck. I get it. Your posts are always pod space focused. You want that weapon tonnage - you want that firepower number to be as high as you can get it. But mechs like the Hellbringer prove that pure firepower isn't everything. That mech should be as gawd-awful as the Summoner, but it's got the hardpoints to overcome its natural problems, and then ECM to give it a little something unique. Well the Linebacker has that too... hardpoints to make use of limited podspace, and an engine to give it a little something extra.

So yeah... it's not the mech YOU want in your deck... but it's the one other people want in theirs. Same as the Black Lanner.

[RedDevil]

God I would love a Jupiter for a clan Battlemech. Too bad it's out of timeline, but even the default Jupiter has a pretty sweet setup.

I would also drool for the Warhammer IIC, which would basically allow me to make a better Hellbringer.

[TheArisen]

Why another 55 & 65 tonner? The Scrow is already the dominant medium. At 65, Hellbringer & Ebon Jaguar, why another? Sure the LB is fast but that's it, other mechs of similar or less tonnage outgun it.

[pbiggz]

ScarecrowES, on 05 March 2016 - 11:30 AM, said:

The funny thing about the whole rest of the post is that you ignore reality in favor of opinion. Can you run an energy build with 6+ energy points on a Linebacker? Yes? Do you have more than 16 tons of pod space? Yes? They you can run the same comp-level laser builds on the Linebacker as you can on both the Hellbringer and the Timberwolf (though it will run hotter than on the TBR). You can also run the standard comp-level laser builds from the Stormcrow as long as you have at least 5 energy slots, which you do. What about the splat builds? 3 to 4 missile slots with energy backups? Yup, the Linebacker has them, so it can do that as well or better than the Stormcrow, better then the Hellbringer, but worse than the Timberwolf. Ballistic and energy builds? Better than the Stormcrow, equal to the Hellbringer, slightly worse than the Timberwolf.

I think it's funny you mention the Exe as a negative mech, but you're seeing it more and more in CW because it does laser vomit better than any clan mech in it's class. If you're thinking these aren't doing well, especially after MASC was adjusted, you're not paying attention. SO MANY LASERS. It's why you're seeing these things more and more on defense teams. If you come around a corner within 300m of one of these, you're going to last about 10 seconds.

Look... I understand why the Linebacker doesn't fit into YOUR deck. I get it. Your posts are always pod space focused. You want that weapon tonnage - you want that firepower number to be as high as you can get it. But mechs like the Hellbringer prove that pure firepower isn't everything. That mech should be as gawd-awful as the Summoner, but it's got the hardpoints to overcome its natural problems, and then ECM to give it a little something unique. Well the Linebacker has that too... hardpoints to make use of limited podspace, and an engine to give it a little something extra.

So yeah... it's not the mech YOU want in your deck... but it's the one other people want in theirs. Same as the Black Lanner.

What part of this isnt clear to you?

It has **** hardpoints. I just laid out in my last point what hardpoints it has, so i really dont understand where you're coming from with this "it has good hardpoints" argument. Its false.

and if it doesnt have hardpoints (and it objectively does not) then suddenly, its 16 tons of podspace becomes even more problematic.

The hellbringer and cauldron born both go fast enough to keep up with the other clan heavies (and most IS mediums) and bring more than triple the firepower the linebacker brings, ballistic, missile, energy, they can do it all.

This game is about killing other mechs. There is no objective play, and no role warfare. Firepower is absolutely everything.

So in summary, the linebacker, has no hardpoints (you say it does but it doesnt), goes fast (which is useless because speed does not kill enemy battlemechs), is short and kind of wide, which could be a blessing or a curse.

It can only do light energy builds, and it wont do them nearly as well as the cauldron born or hellbringer, never mind the timberwolf.

It can do light missile builds in one configuration, which could be its ONE saving grace.

It cannot do ballistic builds. 2 CUAC10s is 20 tons, 3 uac 5s is more, etc etc. you've already exceeded your max podspace by a large margin. It might take single large ballistics, and thats it, but when you do that, you're still brushing up to that podspace limit, because if you take a few big weapons on sparse hardpoints, you NEED podspace to compensate.

So in concluding, we can see here that every argument you've made in the linebacker's favour actually ignores reality more than you claim I ignore reality.

It. Does. Nothing. But. Go. Fast.

If you want to go fast, take a light and shut up.



TLDR: Everything you're saying is false. It has no hardpoints, low podspace, and potentially terrible hitboxes

.

[FupDup]

To help guide flamewars about the Lamebacker, here is my theorycraft spreadsheet:

[Metus regem]

FupDup, on 05 March 2016 - 12:00 PM, said:

To help guide flamewars about the Lamebacker, here is my theorycraft spreadsheet:

Ick, just ick.

Why would this be a higher priority than the Night Gry or Nova Cat?

[pbiggz]

Metus regem, on 05 March 2016 - 12:04 PM, said:

Ick, just ick.

Why would this be a higher priority than the Night Gry or Nova Cat?

6 energy. 6 energy is literally the best you could do.

You could match a stock stormcrow at best.

See the only reason scarecrow keeps bringing it up is he has a hardon for it, presumably because he loved it in tabletop.

But the nova cat "adds nothing new" to the game, and I am the one who's apparently ignoring reality.

[Metus regem]

pbiggz, on 05 March 2016 - 12:09 PM, said:

6 energy. 6 energy is literally the best you could do.

You could match a stock stormcrow at best.

See the only reason scarecrow keeps bringing it up is he has a hardon for it, presumably because he loved it in tabletop.

But the nova cat "adds nothing new" to the game, and I am the one who's apparently ignoring reality.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against everyone having their pet Mech in game, but I am against bad mechs being added when their is a stronger option available in the same weight class. Since aside from CW and group que weight is a non issue, and in the heavy weight class for Clans both the Night Gry (75t) is second only to the Timber Wolf for being out right nasty, on the flip side the Nova Cat (70) just out classes the Summoner, even lacking JJ's, both of these mechs, if you ask me, are overall stronger Mech choices than the Linebacker.

[ScarecrowES]

pbiggz, on 05 March 2016 - 12:09 PM, said:

6 energy. 6 energy is literally the best you could do.

You could match a stock stormcrow at best.

See the only reason scarecrow keeps bringing it up is he has a hardon for it, presumably because he loved it in tabletop.

But the nova cat "adds nothing new" to the game, and I am the one who's apparently ignoring reality.

Yeah, I'm the one with the reality problem when the best builds on the Stormcrow, Timberwolf, and Hellbringer all use 6 or fewer energy slots, and you're saying the Linebacker is worse with... 7 energy slots. And yes, you did miscount. Literally wtf is the argument here?

Honestly I don't care much about the Linebacker... or the Black Lanner. All I care about is that, of the options available to us RIGHT NOW, it's the only option that offers something other mechs don't already do or won't be completely pointless. It fills a niche that needs filling. It is the only heavy mech available in the current timeline that can make that claim. Every alternative mech offered up in the heavy class offers nothing that's not already in the game. I've spent hundreds of dollars on mech packs in MWO over the last few years, but have begun to increasingly skip more recent packs because I just don't see the point of spending hard cash on mechs I already have.

I don't regret paying money for the Shadowcat, for instance, because even though it's not a great mech, at least it's not the same ones I already have. I wouldn't spend a single cent on the Night Gyr, because, let's face it, we don't need a mech like that. We already have them, and they're already not good. But I'd plunk money down on the BLanner and Backer because I don't have mechs like either of those. And with both the BLanner and Backer, we have mechs that will break the traditional mold of "over-engined, under-gunned" because these would be the first fast clan mechs with actual hardpoints. I'm not seeing why we wouldn't want a 100kph mech that can run 2xLPL and 4xCERML +5xDHS. Especially one as small and as well configured as the Linebacker will be.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 05 March 2016 - 01:24 PM.

[zeta44]

Grendel or glass spider, glass spider would add an interesting twist though as its primary variant is a twin gauss rifle sniper which could be very useful in a support role in C-warfare, park one in an elevated position in the back of your base and soften up anyone who try's to enter the base so your team can kill them faster, I can imagine it would have quirks that allowed its gauss rifles to charge faster or shoot farther to account for its low armour

[martian]

zeta44, on 05 March 2016 - 12:57 PM, said:

Grendel or glass spider, glass spider would add an interesting twist though as its primary variant is a twin gauss rifle sniper which could be very useful in a support role in C-warfare, park one in an elevated position in the back of your base and soften up anyone who try's to enter the base so your team can kill them faster, I can imagine it would have quirks that allowed its gauss rifles to charge faster or shoot farther to account for its low armour

If you like those 'Mechs, okay.

However, if you want twin Gauss sniper weighing 60 tons, Vulture C with a pair of GRs is in MWO already. Glass Spider would be quite similar, although not entirely identical.

As for Grendel, it's quite similar to Shadow Cat.

[LT. HARDCASE]

martian, on 05 March 2016 - 01:09 PM, said:

However, if you want twin Gauss sniper weighing 60 tons, Vulture C with a pair of GRs is in MWO already.

Worst dual Goose mech in the game, too.

[martian]

LT. HARDCASE, on 05 March 2016 - 01:10 PM, said:

Worst dual Goose mech in the game, too.

Well, I have seen some guys running twin Gauss Hunchbacks ...

[pbiggz]

ScarecrowES, on 05 March 2016 - 12:54 PM, said:

Yeah, I'm the one with the reality problem when the best builds on the Stormcrow, Timberwolf, and Hellbringer all use 6 or fewer energy slots, and you're saying the Linebacker is worse with... 7 energy slots. And yes, you did miscount. Literally wtf is the argument here?

Honestly I don't care much about the Linebacker... or the Black Lanner. All I care about is that, of the options available to us RIGHT NOW, it's the only option that offers something other mechs don't already do or won't be completely pointless. It fills a niche that needs filling. It is the only heavy mech available in the current timeline that can make that claim. Every alternative mech offered up in the heavy class offers nothing that's not already in the game. I've spent hundreds of dollars on mech packs in MWO over the last few years, but have begun to increasingly skip more recent packs because I just don't see the point of spending hard cash on mechs I already have.

I don't regret paying money for the Shadowcat, for instance, because even though it's not a great mech, at least it's not the same ones I already have. I wouldn't spend a single cent on the Night Gyr, because, let's face it, we don't need a mech like that. We already have them, and they're already not good. But I'd plunk money down on the BLanner and Backer because I don't have mechs like either of those. And with both the BLanner and Backer, we have mechs that will break the traditional mold of "over-engined, under-gunned" because these would be the first fast clan mechs with actual hardpoints. I'm not seeing why we wouldn't want a 100kph mech that can run 2xLPL and 4xCERML +5xDHS. Especially one as small and as well configured as the Linebacker will be.

65 kph clan jumping gunboat heavy is a niche that isn't filled.

100kph unarmed 65 tonner is a niche nobody cares about.

wtf is your argument? I deconstructed every single argument you gave me.

Its an overweight suboptimal stormcrow with bad hardpoints and no podspace, and it'll either spam missiles or lasers. The mech itself might do something no other mech does (because indeed, doing that thing is pointless), but loadout wise, it does exactly what every other clan heavy in the game does, only not as well.


Indeed you ARE the one with the reality problem. A one trick pony adds absolutely nothing to the game. The nova cat has 38 tons of podspace, its 70 tons (only other clan 70 tonner is the summoner) and because it has no fixed equipment, its can literally do whatever you want. It has an overabundance of hard points (more than you could ever possibly need) and has more than enough tonnage to use any or all of them.

No other clan heavy in the game right now does that. Timberwolf has way less podspace and no shortage of fixed criticals. The summoner is garbage, and both the 65 tonners have enough tonnage to gunboat, but neither of them jump or are particularly well armored, though they are faster. The Nova Cat is fully armored and has access to jumpjet pods if you want them (but they are not forced on you).

The nova cat adds plenty to the game. It fits niches currently not occupied. It has massive build potential, inside and outside of the current meta. The linebacker does all of 2 things ok, and can't do anything else because it sold all its tonnage to get a massive engine that gives it speed that it doesn't need.

[ScarecrowES]

pbiggz, on 05 March 2016 - 01:46 PM, said:

My answer to every argument in favor of a mech I don't like is that the ratio of pod space to tonnage is not as high as other mechs I do like.

Fixed for you.

The most hilarious thing here is the continued insistance at "bad hardpoints." 7 possible energy. 6 possible missile. More ballistics than it has the tonnage to use (like the Night Gyr). And hardpoint distribution enough to allow for just about any combination of the above. And every single one of those hardpoints except for the very few in the arms are mounted above the cockpit, which is at the bottom of the torso. So good spread of high-mount hardpoints equals... bad?

Poking in over at Smurfy to do some theory crafting, the Linebacker can run every Hellbringer build I've got, losing only 3-4 DHS per build, depending on which one - which is an acceptable loss of sinks when you consider the higher heat cap of the larger engine. All of those builds are 1000-damage per match builds - and they'd run at 20kph faster on the 'Backer, with nearly all hardpoints at the top of the torso. It can run most of my Timberwolf builds, and of those within acceptable heat ranges because, let's face it, the TBR has more space for sinks than guns. It can run every Stormcrow build I have, and some of those will run cooler on the Linebacker. And those builds include the usual laser meta, splat, and ballistic/laser builds. All top end comp and CW builds.

Compared to those 3 tier 1/2 mechs, the Linebacker will run faster than those (or the same, as is the case with the Stormcrow) and will have smaller frontal hitboxes than mechs 20 tons lighter than itself. Alpha damage at no less than 45 (for the CUAC-10 build)... 64 for the splat build. That's pretty good. In fact, above average. And slapping that sort of damage on a mech that's going to be fast and relatively hard to hit? C'Mon. You don't see a place for something like that?

Especially in community warfare, where your entire clan attack deck is built on highly mobile mechs that can take a beating - and your defense decks are built and your ability to trade more damage than you take - you don't think a mech that can keep pace with a Stormcrow, with equal or more powerful builds, better hitboxes, AND more tanky armor and internals is going to get some use? And the Night Gyr and Nova Cat? Too slow for clan attack drop decks. Plain and simple. Assault-level speed on a heavy is not going to work for CW. And for defense decks? Those would only work on wave 1, where speed doesn't really matter. And there would still be better options with the godly TBR instead.

[Imperius]

Next clan mech is the Mad Cat MK II, yup I went there again, eventually I'll be right. I wouldn't argue with me either... You know I won't stop.

[ScarecrowES]

Imperius, on 05 March 2016 - 04:44 PM, said:

Next clan mech is the Mad Cat MK II, yup I went there again, eventually I'll be right. I wouldn't argue with me either... You know I won't stop.

If we want to jump all the way to the 3060 time period for the Nova Cat, we might as well.

[Valdarion Silarius]

I actually hope PGI releases a much needed IIC Battle mech wave 2 pack. I hope we see these mechs in this order.


Locust IIC for the light.


Production year : 2832

With 8x ER Small laser and 1 medium pulse laser for the prime variant, I feel that this mech is going to give the Arctic Cheetah and the Firestarter mechs a run for their money. Great scouting capabilities and a slightly larger profile than it's IS cousin, I can see it filling the role of a firemoth (until we finally get one).


Shadow Hawk IIC for the medium.


Production year : 2831

The prime variant is going to be a great brawler with it's 4x Streak SRM-2's, 2x medium pulse lasers, 1x ER Medium lasers and a 1x ER small laser. The clans are lacking in the medium department (and in the lore in general).


Rifleman IIC for the heavy.


Production year : 2845

Now before everyone cries "Oh this mech is going to be OP! 4x LPL's and JJ's?"; Purchase a Warhawk Prime, remove the LRM10's and the 4x ER PPCs, buy 4x LPL's and squeeze in all the heatsinks you can on to the mech. See how fast you overheat without chain firing? Yeah, the Rifleman IIC is not going to be OP at all.

Mechwarriors will have to learn how to chain fire the large pulse lasers, and just like MW2 and MW2 GBL, the main weapon mounts on the mech will be arm mounted. So any opponents that would potentially face the Rifleman IIC in the field will have to learn to aim at the arms to put the mech out of battle. Any other weapon mounts would be minor ones in the chest area.

After that little rant, this is a much needed mech for the clans. The IS already has the Jagermech, the blackjack, and now the IS rifleman. The rifleman IIC 1 mounts 4x Large Pulse Lasers, a single ER small laser (a last ditch weapon if the arms get blown off), a BAP, and jump jets. With high weapon mounts, the rifleman iic mainly boasts higher laser/ballistic mounts like it's IS cousin. It's a second liner, aka a better armored support mech that can stand on it's own in battle.


TL:DR If we don't get an IIC mech pack 2, then this is the single IIC battlemech that I want to see for the clans.


Warhammer IIC for the assault.


Production year : 2829

Boasting 1 ton of more armor than the rifleman iic, this mech is an absolute classic that we grew up with in MW2. The prime has a devastating pair of 2x ER PPC's, 5x Medium Pulse Lasers, and a single SRM 6. I love the classic in the center cockpit design for a more tankier look than its IS cousin. An extremely well thought out design, mechwarriors can experiment with various missile builds to laser boats with this chassis. This will be a tough nut to crack in MWO, and a well needed one for the clans.

Edited by Arnold The Governator, 06 March 2016 - 11:00 AM.

[LT. HARDCASE]

Scarecrow, it's been a good discussion thus far, thanks.

The biggest issue I have with your argument for the Backer, is that the entirety of your main crux (size, tankiness, hitboxes, hardpoint placement) is dependent on PGI scaling it to what you'd consider proper. What if they screw it up? What it its arms are at its ankles like all of the official art? You really willing to push all-in on that bet? Again, the Backer will not be appreciably smaller than an Ebon Jag, as PGI are flat out stating that major size disparity between equal tonnage mechs is going bye bye. The dream is dead. Be ready for it to be taller than you'd like, or wider. Or both.

The fact that your only counter is that the Backer can run the same builds we find on the Crow, Timber, Ebon, and Hellbringer bothers me. I don't need a 97kph Hellbringer/Ebon, because I have the 10 ton lighter Stormcrow. You have yet to offer a compelling argument against just taking a Stormcrow. The Backer has zero unique builds (fact), so why do we need it? The Ebon gives me all of the cockpit or higher weapons I need, with higher arms to boot. CW? Effective tonnage matters so much. If a lighter mech can do the job, you take that mech. So again, what does the 10 tons buy me? Why wouldn't I take the Crow, and give the 10 tons to something else?

You keep poo pooing the Night Gyr as less unique, when it's a mech that can literally run builds that no other Clan heavy can attempt. The Timber Wolf can't even mount the stock Night Gyr Prime's loadout. It can easily run 4 ballistic, or mix ballistics with energy or missiles. And with jump jets. Clans would also finally have the choice to take a heavy Omnimech that sacrifices a smaller engine for huge firepower.

If the Backer was 60 tons, it'd have a niche, being a much better alternative to the Mad Dog. At 65 tons, from the gate it is competing with 2 mechs that are of the highest tier, both of which do exactly what it does, at a lower speed.

martian, on 05 March 2016 - 01:33 PM, said:

Well, I have seen some guys running twin Gauss Hunchbacks ...

Those at least have ridiculously high mounted Goose though, while the Mad Doggy's are at his waist.

Arnold The Governator, on 05 March 2016 - 05:02 PM, said:

I actually hope PGI releases a much needed IIC Battle mech wave 2 pack. I hope we see these mechs in this order.

You and me both. My investment into Clan XLs has been obscene, for there to only be 4 chassis can use them with at the moment.

I like your choices.

Edited by LT. HARDCASE, 05 March 2016 - 05:23 PM.