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Next Clan Mech?

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#261 FupDup

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Posted 04 March 2016 - 09:35 AM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 04 March 2016 - 08:01 AM, said:

Also we are neglecting the Supernova.

I just noticed that too, I forgot it was in our timeline.

My first concern with the it is that there isn't much variant variety...Variant 2 has a mix of missiles + energy (it uses ATMs though) but every other variant is pure energy. I guess PGI could inject at least 2-3 made-up variants, but IDK if they would go that far.

#262 ScarecrowES

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Posted 04 March 2016 - 09:43 AM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 04 March 2016 - 12:27 AM, said:


It has significantly less pod space than a Stormcrow. ~6 tons
It moves the same speed as a stormcrow
It has awful geometry with the lowest mounted arms ive seen on any mech artwork ever.
Its just a strictly worse Scrow, that costs an extra 10 tons for the dropdeck.
- the godlike hitboxes on the Scrow probably count for more than the armour of a mech ten tons heavier, i know i think the Scrow is tougher than the Ebon...

Lineback is terribad.


This is all a bit disingenuous. The Linebacker has 4 locked double heat sinks, which the Stormcrow does not. So that's 4 extra tons right there. They basically have the same pod space, and about the same hardpoint sets to use them. You're basically able to build the same configs for both mechs. It has only 2 hardpoints on the mech that are mounted below cockpit level, which under MWOs art pattern would be at waist/hip level. All of the rest of the hardpoints are mounted high on the torso, above the cockpit. Worst case scenario is that some get pushed down in-line with the cockpit. This makes most hardpoint locations on the Linebacker better than the ones on the Stormcrow.

The geometry of the Linebacker is straight up better than the Stormcrow. You've got a low, dense torso and a much smaller profile. It will be shorter than the Stormcrow by a mile... the shortest and most compact clan heavy. And it's frontal torso hitboxes would be significantly smaller overall than the Stormcrow due to that mech's less dense build. There aren't really any other mechs that are quite that compact and naturally small. Because it's a heavy, and because it's hitboxes would be so compact, it'd probably end up being one of the most tanky mechs in the game AND runs at 97kph.

In all seriousness, anything the Stormcrow could do, the Linebacker would just be better at. And since Stormcrows in CW tend to be up front in a push, getting the benefit to armor and structure that an extra 10 tons makes, and a generally more tanky design too, makes this an ideal type to replace the SCrow in those roles. And you can take 4 Linebackers in a deck (with tonnage left over).

It basically has all the design qualities necessary to overcome it's "over-engined" nature and really turn that into a positive. That's why it deserves to be in. Besides, this is a mech that remains in production well through the Dark Ages, which makes it one of the longer-served Clan mechs. They must do something right.

#263 TheArisen

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Posted 04 March 2016 - 01:51 PM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 04 March 2016 - 09:24 AM, said:

http://www.sarna.net...lack_Python.jpg

This looks a bit better, I can only imagine what Alex would do with this once he got his hands on it.


I like the art but those STs look vulnerable.

#264 xXBagheeraXx

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Posted 04 March 2016 - 02:31 PM

Supernova, as much as I want it is a No-go because the alternate models use heavy larges and ATM's and crap like that if I remember Sarna correctly.

#265 pbiggz

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Posted 04 March 2016 - 02:36 PM

View PostScarecrowES, on 04 March 2016 - 09:43 AM, said:


This is all a bit disingenuous. The Linebacker has 4 locked double heat sinks, which the Stormcrow does not. So that's 4 extra tons right there. They basically have the same pod space, and about the same hardpoint sets to use them. You're basically able to build the same configs for both mechs. It has only 2 hardpoints on the mech that are mounted below cockpit level, which under MWOs art pattern would be at waist/hip level. All of the rest of the hardpoints are mounted high on the torso, above the cockpit. Worst case scenario is that some get pushed down in-line with the cockpit. This makes most hardpoint locations on the Linebacker better than the ones on the Stormcrow.

The geometry of the Linebacker is straight up better than the Stormcrow. You've got a low, dense torso and a much smaller profile. It will be shorter than the Stormcrow by a mile... the shortest and most compact clan heavy. And it's frontal torso hitboxes would be significantly smaller overall than the Stormcrow due to that mech's less dense build. There aren't really any other mechs that are quite that compact and naturally small. Because it's a heavy, and because it's hitboxes would be so compact, it'd probably end up being one of the most tanky mechs in the game AND runs at 97kph.

In all seriousness, anything the Stormcrow could do, the Linebacker would just be better at. And since Stormcrows in CW tend to be up front in a push, getting the benefit to armor and structure that an extra 10 tons makes, and a generally more tanky design too, makes this an ideal type to replace the SCrow in those roles. And you can take 4 Linebackers in a deck (with tonnage left over).

It basically has all the design qualities necessary to overcome it's "over-engined" nature and really turn that into a positive. That's why it deserves to be in. Besides, this is a mech that remains in production well through the Dark Ages, which makes it one of the longer-served Clan mechs. They must do something right.


Your math is grossly flawed if you think the linebacker is even anything close to a match for a stormcrow. Get it out of your head, the linebacker is just like the black lanner, hot garbage.

#266 Coralld

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Posted 04 March 2016 - 03:04 PM

View Postpbiggz, on 04 March 2016 - 02:36 PM, said:


Your math is grossly flawed if you think the linebacker is even anything close to a match for a stormcrow. Get it out of your head, the linebacker is just like the black lanner, hot garbage.

Agreed, really, the only Omni that I can think of that would give the Crow a good run for it's money is the Huntsman.
24t of pod space and that's with max armor and lock equipment included and has the ability to be highly customisable.

#267 Afuldan McKronik

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Posted 04 March 2016 - 03:19 PM

Well if Kodiak variant 3 is 3068, does a production year 3068 or earlier change anything? Im thinking its the tech level limitation on both IS and Clan mechs. ATM, TSM, L-AMS, HAG, Heavy Laser, X-Pulse, ER-Pulse, RAC...

#268 wanderer

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Posted 04 March 2016 - 03:23 PM

As long as there's a current date of origin for the "prime" chassis, PGI's willing to bend things a bit to allow variants that also only use "current" tech, even if the date of production is later. That's how you got the Kodiak as it is.

#269 ScarecrowES

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Posted 04 March 2016 - 03:35 PM

View Postpbiggz, on 04 March 2016 - 02:36 PM, said:


Your math is grossly flawed if you think the linebacker is even anything close to a match for a stormcrow. Get it out of your head, the linebacker is just like the black lanner, hot garbage.


The kinda awesome thing about math is that it's not subjective. Math don't care what you believe about math. So compared to the Stormcrow, the LineBacker has: Roughly the same pod space (accounting for the 4 locked sinks), roughly the same spread of hardpoints (but in better locations), same speed, more armor, more internals, smaller profile, better hitboxes. It's capable of running the same builds as upper tier mechs like the Stormcrow and Hellbringer with equal effect (while being smaller and harder to hit than both), and even some of the top Timberwolf builds... though obviously hotter, which it can get away with due to the greater speed and tankier profiles.

So... where is the math not in favor of the Linebacker here? Is it the loss of 1.5 tons of pod space over the Stormcrow... literally the one negative you can point to.

#270 LT. HARDCASE

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Posted 04 March 2016 - 07:23 PM

1. The Linebacker does not have nearly the hardpoint spread of the Stormcrow. It has not a single pod with more than 2 energy, and only 1 arm with more than a single energy mount. It can do 6M points, but 4 of those would be in its low slung arms. Can't boat more than 7 lasers, to the Stormcrows what, 13? Take the ballistic torso, and you lose 2 of those E points.

2. PGI is NOT going to make a 65 tonner smaller than a 55 tonner, not after the formulaic volume normalization work that's currently underway. Even If they went slightly shorter, it'd be significantly wider, ie the Ebon Jag. Worse hitboxes by default.

Linebacker seems like a worse Ebon Jag. Faster, sure. But the lacking tonnage hurts more. You even have both a ballistic RA and RT, like the Ebon, but you lack the ability to use both of them simultaneously.

Again, why not just take the Stormcrow?

Edited by LT. HARDCASE, 04 March 2016 - 07:25 PM.


#271 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 04 March 2016 - 07:25 PM

View PostScarecrowES, on 04 March 2016 - 03:35 PM, said:

The kinda awesome thing about math is that it's not subjective.

Statistics would actually disagree. Well, let me be a little less vague with that statement, math is not subjective, but their relevance and usage is very much subjective.

That said, I don't know that the Linebacker would be quite as DOA as people think, just like with the BLanner, but it isn't as strong as the main Clan heavies.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 04 March 2016 - 07:27 PM.


#272 Afuldan McKronik

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Posted 04 March 2016 - 08:36 PM

We need a tech expansion :P

#273 ScarecrowES

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Posted 04 March 2016 - 09:44 PM

View PostLT. HARDCASE, on 04 March 2016 - 07:23 PM, said:

1. The Linebacker does not have nearly the hardpoint spread of the Stormcrow. It has not a single pod with more than 2 energy, and only 1 arm with more than a single energy mount. It can do 6M points, but 4 of those would be in its low slung arms. Can't boat more than 7 lasers, to the Stormcrows what, 13? Take the ballistic torso, and you lose 2 of those E points.

2. PGI is NOT going to make a 65 tonner smaller than a 55 tonner, not after the formulaic volume normalization work that's currently underway. Even If they went slightly shorter, it'd be significantly wider, ie the Ebon Jag. Worse hitboxes by default.

Linebacker seems like a worse Ebon Jag. Faster, sure. But the lacking tonnage hurts more. You even have both a ballistic RA and RT, like the Ebon, but you lack the ability to use both of them simultaneously.

Again, why not just take the Stormcrow?


This will be ridiculously lengthy, but I feel it's important to be detailed here.

In actual usage, you're not going to be using more than 6 energy slots, unless you're boating small lasers (which, let's face it, you're not). Looking at the Stormcrow, Hellbringer, and Timberwolf, the most popular and competitive laser vomit builds on those chassis aren't often using more than 6 energy slots, even if it's possible to mount more. The common combination 2x LPL, 4x CERML builds will work on a Linebacker, and it will run as well as on any of those mechs (though a little hotter than some).

Moreover, some of the more popular types of builds in upper tier CW or competitive play will combine SRMs or UACs with lasers. So if you can get yourself 3+ SRMs mounted, and a handful of lasers (which you can), or a single UAC-10 and 4-5 lasers (which you can), you're well within the meta for top-level team play.

To your point about size, you may misunderstand the effect shape has on size. Look at the composition of the Stormcrow. It's very tall and very upright. The limbs are fairly gaunt, which means the mass of the mech is focused heavily in the torso. That torso is not particularly deep, so the mass is distributed in a way which gives a large front profile for its mass. Compare that to the body composition of the Linebacker. Classic hunched configuration. Very efficient torso volume distribution. Compact. Fairly normalized limbs (not gaunt like the SCrow) so weight relatively distributed between limbs and torso within norms. The torso is very short, somewhat wide, but mostly unusually deep. This produces a very small front profile relative to mass.

The more compact a shape is, the less surface area it will have relative to volume. So the Linebacker's more efficient shape means less overall surface area to mass ratio. The deep torso means a greater ratio of surface area is focused AWAY from the front profile, which is the profile that players will see the most (hence why most armor is always focused in the front center torso) That front center torso profile is the smallest profile on the mech.

Taken together, this means quite a few things. First, that it will be shorter than a Stormcrow. Not only that, but it will be shorter than an Ebon Jaguar because of that mech's far flung mass. That much is guaranteed. Next, the front hitboxes will be very small because of the small front profile, and the front center torso hitbox will be the smallest of the 3 torso hitboxes due to the way the front of the Linebacker is designed. It will almost certainly have a smaller front center torso hitbox than the Ebon Jaguar - unless PGI consciously pushes the center hitbox out to the sides.

Exactly how small might the Linebacker end up? Well, using the Stormcrow as reference, at 55 tons... Assume bulking up the arms and legs to the general aesthetic in Linebacker art will take up most of the 10-ton weight difference between the two mechs, with limbs properly sized for a 65-ton mech. It's safe to say, based on mass distribution that the Linebacker and Stormcrow will have a torso of approximately the same mass/volume - with the Linebacker torso likely no more than 2-3 tons more massive than Stormcrow, if at all. So take the Stormcrow torso, in your head, crumple it into a ball like a piece of clay, and reshape it into the shape of the Linebacker torso. Basically that would look like taking the Stormcrow cockpit off the rest of the torso, tipping the torso forward 90-degrees, and then sticking the cockpit back on. That's a pretty small target to shoot at, right? Way smaller than the Stormcrow.

And that's the reality of body plan in a volumetrically-normalized world. Mechs that stand upright are going to look way bigger than a mech that's hunched over. PGI has no say in how they pan out. PGI will just build the model, and normalize it to volume. The body plan is heavily in favor of the Linebacker here. Mathmatically, it's a certainty that the Linebacker will be "smaller" than the Stormcrow in every way that matters.

So after you determine that the Linebacker can mount the same meta builds as tier-1 mechs (including the Stormcrow), and it can run as fast as a Stormcrow, and has better frontal hitboxes than that mech... and then you realize that you've got the benefit of extra armor and structure that an extra 10 tons affords you... the question should probably be, "Why take a Stormcrow?" I mean, unless you need the extra 10 tons in your drop deck. If you want to run the 2xLPL and 4xCERML build on a heavy mech, you then have to ask, "Why wouldn't I pick the Linebacker over the Hellbringer and Ebon Jaguar?" Hell, you might even take it over the Timberwolf and save yourself 10 tons.

#274 Widowmaker1981

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Posted 05 March 2016 - 05:52 AM

View PostScarecrowES, on 04 March 2016 - 03:35 PM, said:


The kinda awesome thing about math is that it's not subjective. Math don't care what you believe about math. So compared to the Stormcrow, the LineBacker has: Roughly the same pod space (accounting for the 4 locked sinks), roughly the same spread of hardpoints (but in better locations), same speed, more armor, more internals, smaller profile, better hitboxes. It's capable of running the same builds as upper tier mechs like the Stormcrow and Hellbringer with equal effect (while being smaller and harder to hit than both), and even some of the top Timberwolf builds... though obviously hotter, which it can get away with due to the greater speed and tankier profiles.

So... where is the math not in favor of the Linebacker here? Is it the loss of 1.5 tons of pod space over the Stormcrow... literally the one negative you can point to.


All of its non missile weapons are mounted in the arms from what i can tell, barring a single rear mounted small laser that would end up in the CT most probably. Those arms are.. low. So hardpoint locations = bad. it has less ability than the crow to do cool running builds due to the locked heatsinks (and even hot builds its still 2.5 tons worse.. the linebacker is missing 1T of armour by the way), and is 10 tons heavier. So you shouldnt really be comparing it to a crow, you should be comparing it to an Ebon or Hellbringer in terms of opportunity cost.
Posted Image

That is NOT good geometry. Its wide, the cockpit is center mass and the good weapons (B/E) are all in low hanging arms. And this is the nicest i could find.. in fairness the Scrow doesnt have classically good geo either, but its good due to being really narrow and getting godlike hitboxes as a result

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 05 March 2016 - 05:57 AM.


#275 Wildstreak

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Posted 05 March 2016 - 05:55 AM

View PostAce Selin, on 27 February 2016 - 06:10 AM, said:

I believe there was talk of a 4 mech Clan Omnimech pack after the Kodiak.

There was talk in the Town Hall before this one by Russ of a 4 Mech pack after the Kodiak, no mention of another single Mech pack.
Then came the Phoenix Hawk.
Plans always subject to change.

#276 Metus regem

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Posted 05 March 2016 - 05:58 AM

View PostWildstreak, on 05 March 2016 - 05:55 AM, said:

There was talk in the Town Hall before this one by Russ of a 4 Mech pack after the Kodiak, no mention of another single Mech pack.
Then came the Phoenix Hawk.
Plans always subject to change.


Pretty sure it was going to do this:


Kodiak
Unseen classic
Clan 4 pack

#277 Cy Mitchell

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Posted 05 March 2016 - 06:28 AM

The next Clan Mech needs to be a Medium or Light. They are lagging behind the big Mechs in numbers.

The Black Lanner has Active Probe, ECM and MASC. It would make a great scout or light killer. It can also carry versatile load outs to fit nearly any role except pop tart sniping. I promise I will pre-order! Posted Image

Posted Image

#278 Narcissistic Martyr

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Posted 05 March 2016 - 06:29 AM

Viper is the last of the classic 3050 TRO omnis so I'm hoping for that one.

#279 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 05 March 2016 - 06:36 AM

View PostRampage, on 05 March 2016 - 06:28 AM, said:

The next Clan Mech needs to be a Medium or Light. They are lagging behind the big Mechs in numbers.

The Black Lanner has Active Probe, ECM and MASC. It would make a great scout or light killer. It can also carry versatile load outs to fit nearly any role except pop tart sniping. I promise I will pre-order! Posted Image

Posted Image


Again... 11 tons of pod space. If an option for a single UAC2 and a smattering of lasers is versatile, then the SHC is a veritable cornucopia of options. We have 40 ton mechs with 50% more usable podspace than the 55 ton Black Lanner. -_-

#280 ilKhan_OrHan

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Posted 05 March 2016 - 06:45 AM

View PostRampage, on 05 March 2016 - 06:28 AM, said:

The next Clan Mech needs to be a Medium or Light. They are lagging behind the big Mechs in numbers.

The Black Lanner has Active Probe, ECM and MASC. It would make a great scout or light killer. It can also carry versatile load outs to fit nearly any role except pop tart sniping. I promise I will pre-order! Posted Image

Posted Image

Will be a strong mech so long as you adhere to the Energy meta.





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